I believe the whole thing isn't the dedicated crossbow users. I think that it has to do with the rifle hunters that never bowhunter buying crossbows to use them. I know that in Pennsylvania, if crossbows are legal for everyone, a bunch of gun hunters who never shot a bow in their life are going to buy crossbows, shot them a couple times until they are "good and accurate" then go out and attempt to harvest an animal. These are the lazy people that everyone is talking about. They are going to be using the crossbow like a gun. They will do minimal practicing. They will get out in the woods, attemp shots that are too far and too risky. They will end up wounding too many deer. We have over a milling hunters in Pennsylvania, something like 350,000 archers. Lets say another 350,000 gun hunters buy crossbows, don't practice with them, go out and wound deer. That is a lot of WOUNDED DEER. I agree that you have to do the same preseson scouting, stand hanging, calling,... Its just that I know a lot more lazy rifle hunters would get crossbows and start wounding deer. Do you understand where I am comming from?


Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

buck magnet-first sensible argument you have given. i agree to a point with you. the only difference is that the same thing can be said about compounders. you by saying this acknowledged that it is not the tool, it is the person.

Buckforme
You make a valid point regarding the hunt and getting to the point where you have the deer into bow/xbow range. I also agree that the xbow has roughly the same distance limitations. Not that it loses accuracy past 30 yards but more that the noise factor makes it inneffective much past 30.
I have no problems with a crossbow being treated as a seperate weapon but I have two major problems with allowing it for the able bodied in archery season.
First, as I said in the other thread that eventually got locked, I own one. I have no disability but use it in a suburban deer control program in the gun season on properties where guns are not permitted. I shot 3 deer with it this year including a 129 6/8" buck. I can honestly say that the buck and one of the does would still be walking around if I'd had to draw a conventional bow. (I had to hunt tight spaces where it was tough to be concealed well with VERY people smart deer residing there.) My point is the success rate would be higher than conventional bows and it wouldn't be fair that the large majority of bowhunters would have to have a shorter season due to a fundamentally different weapon being brought into an established season.
My second problem is one I bet you can really appreciate is that bowhunting takes a serious commitment. Something I suspect you have for your sport. My worry here is that the crossbow proponents I see here that arent in it for the money are looking for an easy way to get in on the extra time archers have in the woods. Archers get lots of woods time simply because what they do is harder than many have the patience and perseverence for. The success rate is relatively low. Lots of woods time is one of the rewards that makes the challenge worth it. From what I've seen , I think it's a legitimate concern that the woods will swell with "shortcutters" and seriously detract from a long standing respected sport.
JMHO

BTW this is strictly a personal opinion, but shooting that 129" buck with an xbow did detract from my sense of accomplishment.
That is strictly my personal opinion!

Edited by - btbowhunter on 01/25/2002 17:26:49

Edited by - btbowhunter on 01/25/2002 17:29:49

Buck Magnet,

Your estimate of new bow/X-bow hunters amazed me. You said that Pa. has one million hunters of which 350,000 are archers. If the X-bow attracted 350,000 new gun hunters to try the X-bow that would require over half the gun owners to buy a X-bow. Not very likly. Perhaps 10% at most. And many of them won't last more than a few seasons when they find out that except for being held at drw for them the X-bow has all the other limitations. So five years after the X-bow was allowed I doubt you'd have more than 40,000 "new archers" that you other wise wouldn't have.

I learned a number of things from the other thread that got locked about this issue.

1. BOTH weapons have a good number of "bells and whistles" that can be added at extra cost. I first though that the X-bow had a advantage in this area when looking in my hunting equipment catalogs. The X-bow can use a scope after all. But when I consider just how much help a scope would be at 30 yards or less vs. a scopes limited field of veiw I don't see one having much advantage over the other.

2. Many long bow (all types of verticle bows) hunters seem to have a real fear of allowing the X-bow for fear it will shorten their seasons.

3. A perception by many that the X-bow is somehow "unfair". I don't get this one at all. If true, then the compound should also be condemned as it shares many advantages over recurve and long bow. I alos wonder why the state of Ohio has more verticle bow hunters than X-bow hunters even though both have been legal there for years. Choice of the individual. Or just because the X-bow isn't as huge a advantage as some think.

4. A allowance of the X-bow as a legal to use for all sportsmen for deer hunting would be a help in areas that need greater numbers of deer to be taken. Although this would be mimimal as Ohio shows the X-bow wouldn't add greatly to hunter numbers.

5. both these weapons use stick and string and suffer the limits there of. Both require a strong commitment to time scouting, placeing of stands, good camo, use of wind and many other factors that could be included. What it all boils down to is one is already at drawn when the deer arrives, the other isn't. The holding of the bow at draw means little or nothing. With compounds now being sold with a 83% let off there isn't much to hold, only the motion of drawing it. And there is motion in raiseing the X-bow to shoulder it for a shot as well, NOT as much as the long arm movments required to draw a bow of any other type but still a fair amount. And any movement can easily spook deer.

The question asked by HNI Visitor is, I think, really asking why they arn't allowed for all hunters to use. And there isn't any reason based on biology or any other sound proofs. Only bias amoung hunters themselves, and that is a sad thing.

While I don't hunt with either of these two weapons I do think the X-bow should be allowed to all. Let all hunt with the weapon of choice. The seasons will be set acording to what the needs are of the resourse, as it should be. The choice of weapon to use to take a deer, should be a individual one.

Craig, here is a modified excerpt from a post I made on another site. I can't say it applies to every state, but it is what I think the impact would be in Texas.

"1999. A total of 25,548 deer taken in archery season statewide. Of those, 10,984 were taken by conventional bows, meaning longbow, recurve and compound. The remaining 14,564 were taken with crossbows. So, the crossbow accounted for 57% of all deer taken during Ohio's archery deer season.

2000. 29,319 deer taken. 16,946 crossbow kills. 12,373 conventional bow kills. Nearly 58%

But that's nothing new. According to ODNR, the crossbow has been outproducing conventional bow harvest every year since 1989, only 13 years after they legalized the crossbow in 1976. ODNR is really proud of that for some reason, because they go to great pains to point out that little tidbit of information in many of their news releases.

There used to be a breakdown of all hunters by weapon that showed crossbow hunters also outnumber conventional archers, but it seems they removed that page from their archives. At least, I can't find it any longer. Anyway, it seems things started out with a few crossbow hunters wanting inclusion in what was originally a BOW season, but the season has now become more of a CROSSBOW season.

Nobody seems to remember how long the gun season was before Ohio legalized the crossbow, so I've done some research. Deer were totally eradicated from Ohio in 1904. They didn't come back strong enough to allow hunting again until 1943. Gun hunting doesn't have anywhere near the tradition or history in Ohio that it does elsewhere. Certainly NOT like the rabid obsession it is here in Texas.

That is undoubtedly why Ohio's gun hunters can accept a 6-day season. Ohio is successful with crossbows because of your state's game managment history. If the bow harvest in Texas was eventually more than doubled by the inclusion of crossbows, like what has happened in Ohio, our 29 day bow season would be cut. Probably terminated. The game commission will not allow the gun season to suffer in this state."

I agree with your point that Ohio statistics do not show an increase in total number of hunters as a direct result of allowing the crossbow. I presume that most of the crossbow hunters are gun hunters that choose a crossbow rather than learn how to shoot a bow. After all, they are used to shouldering their weapon and squeezing the trigger, so it's a familiar operational format. Better to be in the woods, hunting with a crossbow, for 4 months than to wait all year for a 6-day gun season.

Craig...I see your points. Living in Ohio, I get to see the ill effects of the crossbow first hand. Since the crossbow has been legalized in Ohio, we have 5X the bowhunters. (No stats...just my observations) The bow season used to be a peaceful event. Now in many areas, it is like gun season.

I am a high school math teacher. I can't tell you how many kids that I have bringing in pictures of 8pts or 10pts that they killed with a "bow". They did kill them...they use crossbows. I can't see these kids taking the time to learn the recurve/compound and practice to get it right. The crossbow hunters outnumber the longbow hunters 2 to 1 around here. Maybe higher.

I don't look down upon a guy who chooses to use a crossbow. It just makes me look "upward" to those of us who still choose to use a real bow here in Ohio.

I'm not in favor of crossbows. I have one. The only real difference in a compound and a crossbow that I can see is in the draw. When I started hunting with a bow there were no compounds, sights, releases, silencers, and all the other stuff. That's the challenge. Same goes for the new muzzle loaders. Why a special season for a gun that shots almost as well as an .06 or slug shotgun.

LIVE FREE OR DIE

Seems my questions go unanswered ...

1) Where are crossbows illegal ?

2) If its the hunter, and not the weapon ( as many crossbow hunters/advocates argue} then why can I not use a 6 inch barreled, iron sighted handgun in archery season - because it aint going to be any more accurate really that a high tech compound.


No one answers #2 - because there you cannot aruge "its the type if weapon you use" and then turn around and say nope to a limited range firearm. Oh, its archery you say ? Archery - like the type where you draw, with a release aid, a machined aluminum riser bow, carbon limbs, 80% letoff (thats holding a mere 12 pounds for a 60 lb bow), shooting a carbon arrow with a mechanical tip, using a laser sight and a zero-effect rest ....... yeah, thats a bow and a cross bow isn't ?

I say crossbows for handi-cap persons in archery season, legal for gun season ( why not ?) and let it be at that. Why do I draw those lines ? Because of the skill and practice factor. Sure, you aint going to get all compound shooters to do it right, but crossbows make it darn easy to do it wrong - often.

you can use that handgun in texas. it has to be used during rifle season. i see no problem at all with any wepon used as long as the USER is ethical in his or her hunting

Stealthy,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>They ARE legal in NY according to the regulations if the person using it has a permit. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

The permit you speak of is for a modified Crossbow permit.The crossbow can not fire conventially.You must have a blow tube attached to use one in NY.It's not like other states where you can get a permit for one because you have a hang nail.I can't find the data but I would bet there are maybe 100 guys in NY using one.

As far as I'm concerned if you let go of the string and nothing happens it should not be in bow season.

I have no problem with the crossbow being used to hunt with.In some states muzzle loader and archery overlap,let crossbows hunt in that type season season or during gun season.