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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: bigcountry ORIGINAL: madvilledoc I can definitely understand why some people want to gun hunt there. If they don't bow hunt, that may be the only way they can get a chance at a big buck. Of coarse their chance would only last one year. After that the big bucks will be gone and hunting in those counties will be similar to hunting in the rest of the state except you have a much lower deer population. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Gun hunters want to open these four counties to gun hunting. Of coarse they do. There are big bucks down there. But what they don't realize is that there are only big buck down there BECAUSE it is archery-only. No other reason. If you open a gun season, big bucks will be a thing of the past and those counties will be similar to its neighbors. Gun hunters call bow hunters selfish - that they want to keep those counties to themselves. What everyone is failing to mention is that the gun hunters have the entire rest of the state to do what they want. But that is not enough - they want it all. So I ask you, who is really being the selfish ones here?
The other main argument that I have read above is that the DNR should open gun season in those counties because the population has increased. Yes it has increased, but no where near the level to support a gun season. Currently you can only take 2 deer in these counties, one of which must be a doe. In the neighboring counties, you can take up to 6 deer and as many as 11 in other areas of the state. Yes the population has increased - but it is not there yet. This thread is really getting away from its intended purpose - to rant against the NRA sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. Regardless of whether or not you think there should be a gun season in these counties, it should be left up to the DNR to manage the game, not some outside group that knows nothing of the area. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: quiksilver I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The NRA is a PRO-GUN group, NOT a PRO-HUNTING group. They spend millions trying to sell themselves as a group that cares about outdoorsmen - in a veiled effort to drum up as much $$$ as possible - but when the rubber meets the road, they'll cutbowhunters' collectivethroats in a heartbeat. They don't care about bows. They don't care about conservation. They don't care about wildlife management. They just want the most liberal gun laws possible. Obviously, there is a direct conflict of interest there. If you think thatthere is some overlap between gun rights and hunting, you're probably right. However, when you really look at things, the two issues aren't nearly as interwoven as one would think. Put it this way: I'm in the woods at least 75 times/year. Of those 75, I have a gun in my hand for a maximum of 8 hunts. Of those times when I DO take a gun out, those weapons are not the type of firearms that the NRAwastes millions of hunter dollars"protecting." I don't hunt with assault weapons and handguns. Toborrow a line frommy buddy-Iwouldn't piss on the NRA ifthe headquarterswas on fire. I mean, I respect what they do. It's just not anything that I care about. It just bothers me when I see fellow hunters being snowed into believing that the NRA is here to save deer season. It's not. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: madvilledoc ORIGINAL: bigcountry ORIGINAL: madvilledoc I can definitely understand why some people want to gun hunt there. If they don't bow hunt, that may be the only way they can get a chance at a big buck. Of coarse their chance would only last one year. After that the big bucks will be gone and hunting in those counties will be similar to hunting in the rest of the state except you have a much lower deer population. You forget Mingo also borders |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: madvilledoc Thanks for the response, quicksilver. This thread has went down I tangent of bowhunters vs gunhunters that I did not intend. Its funny that the NRA "claims" they are for hunters, but at looking at the numerous posts above, it seems that they are doing more to divide hunters than help them. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Here is one of those Mingo/Wyoming county bucks.
He went over 200lbs.  |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
The RIFLEman part of the association's title might give some subtle clue about where their priorities will leanin the course of supporting hunting rights.I would believe that the general opinion is that expanding areas where firearms can be used for hunting is good in terms of both gunrights and promoting hunting.It will likely be considered heresyin this forum, but there is likely a broader opinion thatpromotion ofthose two things ultimately trumpbowhunters' rights to atrophy buck. So, while I am not an NRA member andsometimes find myself rolling my eyes at some of their actions, I think that thiscurrent action is perfectly logical within the framework of their organizational priorites and the priorities of the broader huntingpopulation.
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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
What everyone is failing to mention is that the gun hunters have the entire rest of the state to do what they want. But that is not enough - they want it all. So I ask you, who is really being the selfish ones here? The NRA states "While the NRA is a single issue organization [gun rights], the Instituteis involved in any issue that directly or indirectly affects firearms ownership and use. Those involve such topics as hunting and access to hunting lands...." So.....of course they are not sticking up for "hunters as a whole". They will intervene on what they perceive to be gun rights issues. Lastly, since the issue is such a hot topic why don't they just put it to a popular vote? Let the people decide. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Not at all. Just you have a nice thing going and want to keep it to yourself. I am mostly a bowhunter. And mostly like traditional. But the bottom line is, gun hunters pay tax just like you. If the area can't substain hunting, then let the population rebound. No matter if you are gun hunter or bow hunter |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: Cougar Mag Not at all. Just you have a nice thing going and want to keep it to yourself. I am mostly a bowhunter. And mostly like traditional. But the bottom line is, gun hunters pay tax just like you. If the area can't substain hunting, then let the population rebound. No matter if you are gun hunter or bow hunter Where here in MD, urban spraw has knocked the deer density out of wack. One would have to know the place and hunt it to actually understand. But I agree with some of your post. And the bottom line is, the deer need to recover and have for the most part. Now, here is the kicker. Personally, I would like for it to stay bowhunting only. I would like MD to be bowhunting only. But thats my own selfish desires. I wouldn't mind if all those 4 counties in southern WV was traditional stick only. More selfish desires. But thats not fair or right. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
I agree with ya on that bigcountry. Its all about the deer numbers and letting them recover and it is a little selfish only letting bowhunting, but thats what the DNR thought was best for the situation. I bow and gun hunt, ive gun hunted for a long time. If someone would of told be a few years ago i wasnt aloud to gun hunt in my county anymore i would be outraged. Ur right it isnt fair.
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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Living in one of those 4 counties (Logan) I love the fact that it's bow only. I havent yet received anything from the NRA but if/when I do, I'll definately give them a piece of my mind on the subject.
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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
As a 62 yr. old native West Virginian and a life-long hunter of the stateI may not always agree with what the legislature and the DNR decide regarding our natural resources. But, I'd much rather have them decide the fate of hunting in WV than an outside organization with no knowledge of wildlife conservation. The open hunting of those counties should be based upon sound biological practices. Many of our counties still do not have fall turkey season because spring harvest numbers do not show turkeys in sufficient numbers. What's next shall PETA and the like also have a voice in our state's conservation practices?
Jim |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: redmag As a 62 yr. old native West Virginian and a life-long hunter of the stateI may not always agree with what the legislature and the DNR decide regarding our natural resources. But, I'd much rather have them decide the fate of hunting in WV than an outside organization with no knowledge of wildlife conservation. The open hunting of those counties should be based upon sound biological practices. Many of our counties still do not have fall turkey season because spring harvest numbers do not show turkeys in sufficient numbers. What's next shall PETA and the like also have a voice in our state's conservation practices? Jim |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: bigcountry ORIGINAL: redmag As a 62 yr. old native West Virginian and a life-long hunter of the state I may not always agree with what the legislature and the DNR decide regarding our natural resources. But, I'd much rather have them decide the fate of hunting in WV than an outside organization with no knowledge of wildlife conservation. The open hunting of those counties should be based upon sound biological practices. Many of our counties still do not have fall turkey season because spring harvest numbers do not show turkeys in sufficient numbers. What's next shall PETA and the like also have a voice in our state's conservation practices? Jim What I don't understand is why everyone is thinking NRA is deciding anything for you. They are not. They are just pushing for something or campaigning if you will on behalf of thier members in those counties. Its really that simple. WV DNR has not once said they will do what the NRA tells them to do. Its fairly rediculus to think otherwise. I hear ya BC....  The NRA is not trying to manage any wildlife in WV. They are trying to get gun hunting in counties where it's bow only, more power to them!:):) |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: madvilledoc Although not a member of the NRA (why I have no idea), I've always supported what they do. Like most hunters, I am very pro gun. But the recent actions of the NRA in southern West Virginia is leaving me shocked and if I am honest, somewhat angry. In southern West Virginia, there are four counties that have been archery-only for deer since the mid 70's. At the time, the whitetail deer population had nearly been wiped out. Due to the archery only status and a one buck limit, the population has slowly recovered although it is still no where near the population of most counties in West Virginia. Also due to the archery-only status and one-buck limit, the age structure is much higher than what is found elsewhere in the state. In these counties bucks have a great chance to reach their true potential. It is no surprise that 80-90% of the P&Y bucks taken in the state are from these 4 counties. You will find that most hunters in these counties allow small bucks to walk as a rule which is the opposite of what you find elsewhere in the state. Most of the hunters that are from these areas wouldn't trade the situation that is found in these 4 counties for nothing. Why would they? It is a treasure trove of trophy bucks. You can go almost anywhere in this four-county area, put out a little corn and a camera, and have a very good chance to have a P&Y buck appear on camera within a few days. Unfortunately, it seems the setup is not loved by everyone. Evidently a small number of NRA members from this area notified the higher ups in the NRA and complained that they aren't able to gun hunt in these four counties. The NRA responded by sending out a questionnaire to all of their members from these counties to ask their opinion on the matter. I have heard through various sources that the NRA plans to lobby the West Virginia legislature to allow some form of gun season in these counties. The NRA is a powerful lobby group, but I think they are setting a dangerous precedent here. They are getting away from gun rights and toying with game management, which in my opinion they have no business being involved with. The job of game management belongs to the Department of Natural Resourses for each state. Besides it isn't like the state is restricting gun use in these counties. You can still gun hunt small game, coyote, bear, birds, etc. The only species that is archery-only is whitetail. One can only hope that nothing comes from this. I do know that the West Virginia Bowhunters Association is fighting it. But I am from the area and probably biased. What do you guys think? Thoughts? they took a position with PGC to allow crossbows in our ARCHERY SEASON in areas like you said where we have very few doe left.. i will not ever be member of NRA again.[:@] |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Sproulman, if I'm not mistaken can't you PA guys bowhunt all thru all the gun seasons?
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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: BowHuntingFool Sproulman, if I'm not mistaken can't you PA guys bowhunt all thru all the gun seasons? problem started when pgc/nra wanted crossbows for early season. this season was for recurve/compound archery hunters and the DISABLED with crossbow. no one objected too that. you can read at the[ UBP] SITE ON GOOGLE IT AND CAN TELL YOU MUCH MORE THAN ME WHY IT WAS NOT WANTED. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Bigcountry & Bowhuntingfool,
You are exactly right the NRA is not directly controlling the DNR or WV Legislature with regards to hunting in any part of our state. But with the leverage that the NRA exerts nationally on the political scene with candidate and part endorsements they sure have a say in what transpires. That same influencenow focused on the WV legislatures will probably have an impact on each of them for sure. According to Sproulman's comments it made a difference in PA. I can only hope that the WVDNR stands by sound game management practices when deciding the fate of the subject counties. I have no interest in hunting down there but I only hope that outside forces don't decide our state's wildlife mangement policies. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: sproulman ORIGINAL: BowHuntingFool Sproulman, if I'm not mistaken can't you PA guys bowhunt all thru all the gun seasons? problem started when pgc/nra wanted crossbows for early season. this season was for recurve/compound archery hunters and the DISABLED with crossbow. no one objected too that. you can read at the[ UBP] SITE ON GOOGLE IT AND CAN TELL YOU MUCH MORE THAN ME WHY IT WAS NOT WANTED. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
early archery season was involved with UBP.
they did a lot to get it started. then in came IN-LINES AND TOOK 1 OF THEIR WEEKS IN OCT[:@] then scouting week before. TOO MUCH STINK.......[:@] now adding crossbows that they feel is not a BOW,they feel with 4 x scope and a locked arrow, its GUN. so, their season is being ruined with all these new killing machines in season that they fought to get. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: By making bow hunting only it takes off alot of pressure. Go to a game station in WV the first and second day of gun season and see how many deer come in. Then go the first and second day of archery. Ur going to see a huge deficit. First of all, I'm not a member of the NRA and I really don't think they have any buisness in this fight. That being said, If I was a land owner in one of the bowhunting only counties, I'd get all the help I could find if I wanted to gun hunt on my property. I hunt with a gun as well as a bow and it would suck for me to have to leave my property in my county to hunt in bucks only gun season. I think poaching in those counties might become a bigger problem if they allow rifles in. There's something about big antlers that bring out the criminal gene in some people....[8D] I was at the hunt show last weekend and was looking at the "Wall of Shame" at the DNR booth and most of the illegal kills were from those counties. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Of course if they do make these counties open to gun hunting it probably wouldn't take long for the "brown its downers" to to wipe out enough of the buck herdto eventually make hunting there no better than the rest of the state.
Am I wrong? |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: cooter144 Of course if they do make these counties open to gun hunting it probably wouldn't take long for the "brown its downers" to to wipe out enough of the buck herdto eventually make hunting there no better than the rest of the state. Am I wrong? But it should be about setting the proper kill limits to control the herd sizenot aboutbanning guns. What's wrong with being a "brown it's down" guy? If you want to impose your idea of a trophy on someone else go buy up some land and manage it. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: DannyD ORIGINAL: cooter144 Of course if they do make these counties open to gun hunting it probably wouldn't take long for the "brown its downers" to to wipe out enough of the buck herdto eventually make hunting there no better than the rest of the state. Am I wrong? But it should be about setting the proper kill limits to control the herd sizenot aboutbanning guns. What's wrong with being a "brown it's down" guy? If you want to impose your idea of a trophy on someone else go buy up some land and manage it. BTW...I dohunt privateland and manage it but thanks for your advice. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: cooter144 Of course if they do make these counties open to gun hunting it probably wouldn't take long for the "brown its downers" to to wipe out enough of the buck herdto eventually make hunting there no better than the rest of the state. Am I wrong? The legislature, I suppose, could override the DNR, which is why the NRA lobbying them is such a concern. I plan to go to the DNR Commission meeting next weekend. If I find out more, I'll post it here. Another item of interest is that the head of the NRA in West Virginia posted on another forum that yes they did send out the questionaires, but the overwhelming response of their members in those counties was that a gun season was NOT wanted. He further said that they have no further plans on pursuring it at this time. This is certainly good news if it is true, but I am still cautious as I haven't seen anything "official" yet. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: madvilledoc No you are not. Fortunately after speaking with the head of the DNR, they have no plans on opening a gun season anytime in the near future in those four counties. He said the population in those counties are actually down over the last couple of years due to EHD, which hit the area very hard over the last couple of years, especially in 2007. The legislature, I suppose, could override the DNR, which is why the NRA lobbying them is such a concern. I plan to go to the DNR Commission meeting next weekend. If I find out more, I'll post it here. Another item of interest is that the head of the NRA in West Virginia posted on another forum that yes they did send out the questionaires, but the overwhelming response of their members in those counties was that a gun season was NOT wanted. He further said that they have no further plans on pursuring it at this time. This is certainly good news if it is true, but I am still cautious as I haven't seen anything "official" yet. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: BowHuntingFool When you go to the meetings next week ask the Commission if the herd numbers are down why they added Doe tags last year? Something doesn't add up in my book! Good luck! I am a lifetime member of the NRA, and my position is they should be worrying about Obama and his super libs right now with all they got...not something like this. Also, for all the folks that are NOT members of the NRA - honestly, you should be. Like what they stand for completely or not....they are the most powerfulgroup fighting for us and our right to keep and bear arms. You might say "I don't gun hunt, I don't care". Its all intertwined....one the anti's begin to gain ground ANYWHERE, they will do what they can to build on that and weasel their way into anything they can.I completely agree that NRA is a PRO-GUN group and that is their primary agenta, howeverin reality PRO-GUN isPRO-HUNTING, since probably 80% of all hunting is done by a gun. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: BowHuntingFool When you go to the meetings next week ask the Commission if the herd numbers are down why they added Doe tags last year? Something doesn't add up in my book! Good luck! They did keep the doe in the mix for this year, however. So the population must not have declined too severly. We did have a mild outbreak of EHD this year as well, but nothing like 2007. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: madvilledoc In southern West Virginia, there are four counties that have been archery-only for deer since the mid 70's. At the time, the whitetail deer population had nearly been wiped out. Due to the archery only status and a one buck limit, the population has slowly recovered although it is still no where near the population of most counties in West Virginia. Also due to the archery-only status and one-buck limit, the age structure is much higher than what is found elsewhere in the state. In these counties bucks have a great chance to reach their true potential. It is no surprise that 80-90% of the P&Y bucks taken in the state are from these 4 counties. You will find that most hunters in these counties allow small bucks to walk as a rule which is the opposite of what you find elsewhere in the state. I hunt in West Virginia and believe me, the only people ruining West Virginia's hunting the DNR of that state. They (DNR) are more concerned aboutselling extra tags than managing the states deer herd. Their is no antler restriction like neighboring state Pennsylvania and they slaughter way too many does. I have said it for 10-15 years now and it's now finally happening, lower dder kills and less and less deer sightings. I think you can kill up to 10-12 deer a year (with permits) in West Virginia, that entirely too many deer allowed to be able to manage the deer herd and expect to hunt them in years to come down the road. Since the ban on gun hunting in the mention 4 southern counties of West Virginia, there has been a great increase in high scoring bucks. If West Virginia continues to slaughter their deer like they have been doing, the other 51 counties will experience a deer population like it was in the 40's and 50's. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: WV Hunter ORIGINAL: BowHuntingFool When you go to the meetings next week ask the Commission if the herd numbers are down why they added Doe tags last year? Something doesn't add up in my book! Good luck! |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read 3/4 of it. Both sides make some valid points. One thing that I do agree on is that NO group should have any influence on deer seasons, limits, weapon uses, etc. other than the biologist hired to do their job. Here in South Carolina we are the laughing stock of the United States when it comes to deer "management" because here it is 2009 and we still have no limit on the number of deer that you can kill and still have a FIVE MONTH LONG GUN SEASON. In 95% of the state there is no bow season, period. This is because our state DNRis ran by politicans, not the biologist that were hired.
Okay, now lets get to bow vs. gun use in these counties. The orginal maker of this thread swears up and down that letting hunters use rifles would wipe out all of the deer. How so? If you set limits and enforce them, it doesn't matter what kind of weapon you are using. A set number is a set number. If your logic was correct then SC wouldn't have any deer left and infact in most of the state we have 45+ deer a sq. mile. Sure there would be more hunters, but that doesn't mean there would be more deer killed. It would increase pressure It is interesting that I am making this post because I have been "fighting" for a real bow season here in SC (I don't gun hunt) for years now. The bow hunters in SC would be happy with a 50/50 split of our season because that is fair. Now I am sitting on the other side of the fence (even though I don't gun hunt) and defending it. It seems to me that the "bow hunters" in the area want to keep their little slice of big buck heaven to a point where they are showing their greed. Again, you can have plenty of deer, big bucks, and a good age structure through limits and seasons, NOT banning a specific weapon. If these areas have been bow only since the 70's and aren't grossly over populated something isn't right. It sounds to me that the LEO's probably aren't doing there job because there is no way that you can show me an area that has been bow only for over 25 years and still isn't over populated unless there is some X factor that throws the natural breeding equation off. Or you guys have A LOT more bow hunters than you think you do. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: StrutNtom I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read 3/4 of it. Both sides make some valid points. One thing that I do agree on is that NO group should have any influence on deer seasons, limits, weapon uses, etc. other than the biologist hired to do their job. Here in South Carolina we are the laughing stock of the United States when it comes to deer "management" because here it is 2009 and we still have no limit on the number of deer that you can kill and still have a FIVE MONTH LONG GUN SEASON. In 95% of the state there is no bow season, period. This is because our state DNRis ran by politicans, not the biologist that were hired. Okay, now lets get to bow vs. gun use in these counties. The orginal maker of this thread swears up and down that letting hunters use rifles would wipe out all of the deer. How so? If you set limits and enforce them, it doesn't matter what kind of weapon you are using. A set number is a set number. If your logic was correct then SC wouldn't have any deer left and infact in most of the state we have 45+ deer a sq. mile. Sure there would be more hunters, but that doesn't mean there would be more deer killed. It would increase pressure It is interesting that I am making this post because I have been "fighting" for a real bow season here in SC (I don't gun hunt) for years now. The bow hunters in SC would be happy with a 50/50 split of our season because that is fair. Now I am sitting on the other side of the fence (even though I don't gun hunt) and defending it. It seems to me that the "bow hunters" in the area want to keep their little slice of big buck heaven to a point where they are showing their greed. Again, you can have plenty of deer, big bucks, and a good age structure through limits and seasons, NOT banning a specific weapon. If these areas have been bow only since the 70's and aren't grossly over populated something isn't right. It sounds to me that the LEO's probably aren't doing there job because there is no way that you can show me an area that has been bow only for over 25 years and still isn't over populated unless there is some X factor that throws the natural breeding equation off. Or you guys have A LOT more bow hunters than you think you do. The land there is extremely rugged and the deer population takes care of itself without outside influences. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
I just got back from the DNR Commission Meeting held in Flatwoods today. There was an impressive standing-room only crowd present for the meeting. Most of the people that elected to speak at the meeting spoke on this very topic. All of them were against any form of gun season in these counties. There was not a single person attending that spoke in favor of opening a gun season. The NRA was also strangly absent which surprised me as it was their actions that started this mess in the first place. At the end they took a headcount of all those in favor of keeping it bow-only and all those in favor of some form of gun season. The vote was 152 to 0 to keep it bow-only. I think that says it all. I think you will find a few people who do want a gun season in these counties, but the vast majority of the locals that actually live there want to keep it bow only.
The good news is that the DNR stated emphatically that there was currently no plans on opening a gun season in the four bow-only counties. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Without reading through all of these posts..you stated on your 1st post that you have "heard" that the NRA plans on lobbying. Any "facts" on this or just hearsay?
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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: madvilledoc The NRA was also strangly absent which surprised me as it was their actions that started this mess in the first place. |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
ORIGINAL: hardcorehunter Without reading through all of these posts..you stated on your 1st post that you have "heard" that the NRA plans on lobbying. Any "facts" on this or just hearsay? |
RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Good news for you then. I think WV DNR should make the area selfbow only. No compounds, not fiberglass recurves. Handmade selfbow only shooting only wooden arrows. That way those bucks would really reach thier potential. its only good for the deer.
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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
Good deal, glad to hear it. :D
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RE: NRA vs West Virginia Bowhunters Rant
The problem made the front page of the Charleston Gazette. Interesting story.
http://www.wvgazette.com/News/200902150394 |
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