Scrapes and Rubs
 

Years back (15 or so) I use to have scrapes everywhere and also a good share of rubs. Some outstanding rubs at that. Years back at this time I would easily find 30 to 40 scrapes on the 130 acres of land my dad owns, 60 acres Is woods and the rest Is Ag land. I'm guessing now that there's 15 scrapes, maybe 20 tops. We've got a good share of 1.5 year old bucks running around this year, just like In the past. Some good 2.5 year olds as well. We've also got 3 to 4 130" range bucks In the area as well (via trail cams) and one sighting on a mid 120's buck I let go.

Why aren't the scrapes and rubs here like they once were? I don't get it! My brother and I who hunt this woods were talking about this the other day and were both wondering the same thing. His take was they just don't make scrapes like they use to. I don't go for that. A buck Is a buck, that's what they do come this time of the year. The competition Is there one would think, thus you would think more scrapes and rubs would be there. Maybe years ago this woods was crawling with P&Y bucks and possibly that's why there was so much buck sign every where. Enlighten me, I'm stumped!

I should add also that years ago (15 or so) this woods was hunted allot harder then It Is now by my brother and I and also by our parents. My dad no longer hunts It being he lives 4.5 hours away and my mom quit hunting after my parents went there separate ways about 9 years ago. It hardly gets the pressure It once did.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Steve I can relate big time...when i was 15 yrs old and in my twenties, man I would rubs everywhere in my woods, scrapes as well, now they are a unique to see almost.. I still find some, but not the amout that i used to see...puzzles me??

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

I don't know why they wouldn't be makingrubs and scrapesin your areaSchultzy?

I starting finding scrapes in my area about two weeks ago and I think last year was the most sign I had seen in many years.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

I honestly felt that I could be the only one experiencing this just last year (and now this year), so I assumed I was simply doing something wrong (possibly too much pressure causing a change in pattern, etc). I remember in my earlier years of bowhunting on my property, there were scrapes and rubs everywhere...and they were consistently in the same place year after year. The last few years (especially last year and this year), they've all but disappeared. I've found a few field edge rubs and scrapes, but I only found one "interior" area with significant rubs on my property during post-season scouting last year. I have no idea for this, or why it's happening. There is no increased pressure on the property. In fact, I've become much more aware of my entry/exit routes, scent, stand rotation, etc to limit the pressure on the area, but the sign dwindles.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

I was falling asleep as I read the article, so pardon me if I cross this up... but the latest issue of Quality Whitetails I read noted something about having too many young bucks in the area and not enough older deer. I don't remember all the specifics. But here is my connect the dot armchair biologist logical shot at it:

Back in the day Schultzy, you had a lot more hunting pressure, and probably like everyone else, back then before the renisscance of QDM, small bucks probably got shot like everything else. We all know the dumbest deer in the woods is a yearling buck.... so I'm sure a fair number of fork horns, spikes and basket 8s got chopped out of that place every year. That left the big boys, who were/are much smarter, to have free run of the place, and rub and scrape and carry on. Now, with more and more does being shot, and small bucks being passed up, you might be having an influx of young bucks.... there will always be more fawns and yearlings than mature deer just due to hunting and natural deaths, or at least a decent split. So maybe you've got a teenage gang running things in your woods this season? Just a thought?

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Thought number 2:

The woods can change a lot in 15 years.... maybe there isn't quite as much cover or browse as there once was... all deer do need one thing... food.... and the carrying capacity will be what it will be and no more. It could be a very very subtle change that has less to do with hunting pressure, and more as a reflection of natural vegetation/agricultural cycles.

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Good point (and I know this was directed as Shultzy, but still). We USED to take about 2-3 bucks off our 90 acres a year (almost entirely rifle season). In the last three or maybe four (I can't remember) years, there have been 0 bucks taken. I'm the only one who hunts it in archery for the most part, and I usually take out one doe, and 0 bucks (I'm hoping to break that trend sometime, lol:D), but the kills on our property have dropped drastically, so that theory could apply here.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

In my mind im not sure if that theory holds water. Im no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but here is my reasoning. It could be a distinct possibility that the proprty has a bunch of yearly bucks (spikes, forks, basket racks, whatever) but they are still bucks. Yearling bucks still make scrapes and rub trees. Maybe not as much, maybe more than mature bucks, i have no idea. Doesnt really matter, a buck is a buck for the most part, and rubbing and scraping is one things bucks do. Just my thoughts on the topic.

It is interesting that this subject was brought up cause the one property that i hunt, which is still a great property and produces good bucks, just doesnt seem to be what it was 3-4 years ago. Back then, it didnt matter what time you walked to your stand, you were going to see deer. If you only saw 6-8 deer a sit, you had a "slow" night. There were rubs and scrapes everywhere. My buddy and i are the only people who hunt there, its in a subdivision, but there just doesnt seem to be the same amount of deer or sign, and we only take 2-3 deer out of there a year. One thing is for certain, whitetail deer hunting sure makes you think.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Very Interesting stuff here! To be honest I didn't think having too many young bucks Is a bad thing. Another thing too I have one neighbor that practices the same management plans my brother and I do- Let the young bucks go and hold out for the 3.5's and up. This same neighbor will also shoot doe's just as we do. We both try to shoot the older looking doe's that are without fawns or the older big doe's that only have a single fawn. The rest of the neighboring land owners/hunters It's brown It's down kinda thing.

Can a woods have too many small bucks? An over abundance of them?

About 15 years ago my dad had this woods slightly logged out so the under growth could get growing. The woods now Is much thicker then It once was.

You had some very good opinions Andy, thanks for the Info.

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Can't say that I've seen any decrease and we have more than our share of 1.5yo bucks relative to overall population. We also have a high buck/doe ratio like 1.8:3, so I don't know.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Question: I found a fallen tree over a small creek whose bark was absolutely shredded. It was a good sized tree. However, I did not find any more rubs in the area. The ground was so covered with leaves and it was very soft and wet, so I couldn't see any tracks (or the direction of travel of the deer). It is a long time before the rut here in South Alabama, so, is this rub evidence of a big buck shedding velvet? Where should I set up in relation to the rub (facing it or behind it)? The area is just off a food plot in a bottom and the rub is on the side closest to the plot, so can I assume the deer was traveling away from the plot? The ground rises on both sides of the bottom, so was the buck traveling to high cover away from the plot in the morning? There is an oak ridge above the bottom on the side away from the plot. There is heavy brush in the area, not much room to shoot without hitting something.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Thats easy.. doe numbers are too high. This is why you are likely not seeing to much sign.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Explain please Mike.

Thank you.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Could it be that you have too many does, and not much pressure for the bucks to fight over mating rights? I read somewhere that in my area, we have way too many does and because of this there is less competition for mating partners, so bucks don't display as much competitive behavior, in areas where the buck/doe ratio is closer to 1:1, then the rubbing and scraping activity is much more pronounced, and the length of peak rut is more compact. Our peak rut is late and lasts a long time. We typically see small, spotted fawns during Oct/Nov and the rut lasts into Feb after season ends. I am by no means an expert, but I read a lot. Check out the Mississippi State web site, they do a lot of deer research and publish their findings on the web.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

When numbers are closer to each other.. bucks to does.. competition for those does is high. We all know this.. nothing new.

Bucks travel great distances to check doe family groups.. laying down scrapes to show the ladies who he is.. and they continue to lay them down all over. And check them often for the first hot does. Picture lots of bucks doing this.. all over.. and imagine the sign thats laid down.

When does outnumber bucks alot.. bucks don't have to go very far. They'll stick close to bedding and walk MUCH shorter distances. In fact.. they travel substantially less.. only putting scrapes nearby with the local ladies.

No reason to go far.

I could go on.. but you get the point.

You likely have far too many does around compared with the breeding stock bucks. They don't have to put down much sign.. no reason too.

As far as rubs. Well.. the bigger deer can hang back.. have smaller homeranges.. core areas ETC.. all because the high doe pop. So rubs exist somewhere.. but again closer to bed of the bucks.

All this.. in a nutshell.

I hunt all over.. I've seen this many times.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Thanks guys.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Looks like i have to take out some more does on a couple of the places i hunt.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Here's my theory, and strictly theory it is...

I know I dont scout as much as I used to. I used to not care where I went when I was younger and would scout every nook and cranny. Now I have a good idea of what's there and typically don't go into places I used to not go (bedding areas) and just leave em be. Looking back, I remember a lot of close gathered rubs, but had no idea what a 'core area' was or that hmmm this may be his bedroom. So now I dont see as many as I did because I try to stay out of areas that Im not going to hunt.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

I can only guess that the deer are choosing different routs. My land has seen the opposite. I have been seeing more rubs and scrapes every year. I think my situation is due to the outfitters not w horeing off the land next to me. In years past, an outfitter was bringing hunters in every day of the week and shooting anything that moved. It got so bad, Icould go most of the season and only see one or two deer. I went a few seasons with out shooting a buck. Once the land owner sold the property, and the outfitter was gone, I started seeing many more deer.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Oh yea, another idea about your problem:

What is your buck to doe ratio? If you have a lot of does, there is little need for a buck to advertise as much.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

By the sounds of It Burnie I have to many doe's around. There Is a good number of bucks here too but the majority of them are 1.5 year olds. I guess It never crossed my mind that having to many doe's around would give me a problem such as I got. This has been going on for along time now, not just the last few years. We have plenty of deer around, just nothing of great quality as It once was. Our bag limits In my area are one. Pretty sad hah!

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I realize that there is not one exact number that represents the "breaking point" and that it will vary somewhat from region to region, but what is condsidered the general number percentage wise or ratio wise that is considered by most biologists to be too many?

I estimate my areas to be a 1.8:3 buck to doe ratio (37.50% bucks) but this is just based on my observations and not scientific by no means. But for arguement sakes, lets say it is accurate. Is this a good number or should it be closer to 1:1?

Thanks

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

In college they told us that in a perfect world, does birthed twins. One buck, one doe. Ideally the herd should be 1:1. To predators, meat is meat, buck or doe. Without the influx of predators, and hunters and the regulations we have to follow, up until recent years, it was standard to shoot mostly bucks. The majority of the population (Not HNI hunters) would pick out a spike out of a group of 6 does and a spike and kill it just because it is a buck....given the choice. Bucks don't stand a chance except to get smart or die, in terms of numbers. Id say your ratio is pretty good for free range deer. Some parts of Eastern NC, Eastern SC can get to around 1:10....lucky bucks when it comes time to rut.

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

I just started to see the really big scrapes open up here in Iowa the last few days. Maybe you were looking too soon.

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1.8:1 is not a bad ratio at all. Most areas of the country are closer to 4:1 or greater.

I bet you have some fun when you rattle jf.:)

RE: Scrapes and Rubs
 

Acording to Charles Alsheimer the rut is delayed this year because the Rutting moon is late. He predicts that Nov 9-16 things pick up and the following week the bucks will go crazy.