From what I saw of him in 2004 he looked to be 3.5. So in the top pic that would put him at 4.5 and harvested at 5.5.

Offspring contains 50% genes from the doe and 50% of the genes from the buck, thats just the way gametes work. So, by the time you decided to cull a buck at 4.5 years of age he has already shared 50% of his genes for 3 seasons which will keep getting passed on to other offspring. By the time he reaches 4.5 years of age he is not doing the majority of the breeding anyways as stated above that most breeding is done by bucks 1.5 to 2.5 years of age. So shooting to cull is really a useless point.

Fletch, go back and read my posts on this buck one page back.....it'll give you a lot more info on him.

Even you herd management guys are missing a solid point. Would a 3.5 yr old+ not be considered a "trophy"....based on age, alone?

Also....the doe may be way mor eimportant in the "gene" argument than many of you are giving her credit for.

Just remember.....if she has twin fawns....there's a real good chance there's two sires. Now figure in HER contribution to each.

No offense but you said it yourself, unless the deer was aged then we don't know how old he was in the top photo. He could have made that jump from 3.5 to 4.5 which wouldn't be unprecedented but a jump like that from 4.5 to 5.5 would be extremely rare.

I have and it substantiates my point. He was not at least 5 1/2 in the first picture right?? Therefore, not a "cull" candidate in my book. Turned into a great deer though.

Absolutely, but he would by definition (on some farms or ranches) still be considered a "cull buck". IMO the terms aren't mutually exclusive. Even the "pros" that go out and take management or cull bucks are proud of them and consider them trophies but that doesn't change the fact that for that particular property they are management or cull deer.

Just like anything else we do, we have to control the variables that we can control. Management bucks are just one of many variables that go into growing big whitetails. That argument can easily be flipped into an argument against shoot does. But, the fact is that you killing does is yet another tool and there is simply no way that I am aware of to indicate the genetics of a doe, where antlers are concers. So deer managers, manage what they can.

I'm not going to argue with you silent, but I see more than many's share of mature deer each year. Now, when I said he was 3.5 in 2004, that means he was at least 3.5.....no younger.

Gotcha.

I agree that cull buck is simply a cop out im MOST cases....but the above scenario is a terrible example of cull buck. For one, nothing is wrong with the animals rack, it just shed one side by that time...alot of deer could be caught looking like this late season, infact every deer unless they shed both sides simultaneously. The overbite isnt means for a cull anyway, cull bucks are judged by antlers...no one culls by tail length, overbite,or other bodily disorders.

Cull bucks dont achieve anything in the big picture for a wild herd of animals. The genes have long since been passed down by the time one determines it is a cull. That being said, it doesnt HURT anything to remove the animal from the herd, it does in fact prevent any more breeding on his part.

Remember Jeff, the trophy is in the eye of the beholder....just cause me and you see any 3.5+ deer as a trophy, doesnt mean everyone else does. to each his own I guess.