Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

1. What's the herd dynamics where you hunt (doe v. buck numbers & overall deer numbers)?

2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck?

3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)?

4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way?

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

On the land we own, I practice herd management by trying to keep the ratio in check.

On other lands, I just hunt the way I want to.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

1/3 maybe 1/4

Trophy only
As it is[:-]
My way;)

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

It was 1/4-1/6 for several years. Last season and this summer we are actually starting to see a difference and it is actually 1/1 or maybe somewhere close to 2/1.

3.5 y/oor better bucks and does that don't have spots.

I think we have deer numbers in check and the ratio balanced finally. I'd like to focus on increasing the age structure of bucks now. Letting the 2.5's go is going to be tough (especially if they are like the one I took last year) but if it's going to get any better we have to do it.

No.

[/quote]

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

It is near impossible for one man with a limited amount of land to manage the buck-doe ratio. Where I do most of my hunting in Illinois, I have way more does than bucks. Sure I take almost every doe that walks past me, but I know doing so is only a very small drop in a very large bucket. As far as bucks go, I let the younger bucks walk, doing so I can only hope they get a pass from the guys hunting on other properties near me. Again, this is an almost impossible task if you don't own, or at least have execlusive access to a ton of land. Then of course there is the problem of the time that is required to really manage the land. My best farm is a little over 300 acres, only me and my two sons hunt it. We take ever doe we can. I am pretty selective on the bucks I take, I let the boys take whatever buck they want to, mostly because they don't have that many kills yet under their belts. This is only the second year hunting for my youngest boy (12), and really only the second year hunting for my oldest boy (15), breaking an arm in football two years in a row has limited his time in stand with a bow.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Most aspects of our herd dynamics are pretty good. Buck to doe, age structure, population, etc., so that really doesn't influence what I hunt. Other than the fact that it allows me to hunt however I want to.:D I hunt what I want, when I want.

What influences me the most is three hunters under my roof and only a certain amount of freezer space. Last year I donated two does to a family Iknew needed them. Priority right now is letting my boys shoot and hunt whenever they desire. The youngest desires alot.:D For me to shoot a buck it really has to be one I want. Other than that I am content to shoot does to feed others. My boys will get plent of meat for us. I live on the hope of that big one that may or may not materialize.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

It varies depending on the property I hunt. Some are doe only because seeing a 2.5 in those areas is like seeing Jesus doing cartwheels in the Dunkin Donuts parking lot. It don't happen often. Other areas are mature buck only until late season then does come into play because they are good spots with potential, but small so whacking does to early would likely booger it up. Other areas are opportunist areas where I will take whatever strikes my fancy at the time.

Definitely a mixed bag.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

I respectfully disagree with this. I have journal entries from 2003-2007 on the 130 acre family property we have showing that it is possible. My best bud (Jawshooter) has the same thing on his property in NY with journal entries to back it up. Both of these properties 5-7 years ago were producing 1/4+ buck/doe ratios. Keep in mind, you have to pull fawns completely out of the equation. Now both of them are producing 1/1 or even slightly more bucks than does. It's possible, it's just a lot of work and discipline.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Thanks for that, Matt. I can attest to the "work" part. I am working on the "discipline".

To "me" this means foregoing (for the most part) my "best" opportunity at bucks and concentrating on the "work" part (doe reduction). THIS aspect of the "discipline" is toughest, for ME. Passing on the little bucks, isn't.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Matt, I'm not saying that the results you have seen and documented with your own experience aren't true, but even the QDMA says managing properties 250 acres and under is difficult to impossible without entering into a coop with neighboring landowners. Reason being the effects of outside properties bleed into the controls you are trying to apply because the property is so small. Do you have coops or at least neighbors that are following management practices as well? If so, that is great and I hope you guys continue to see the positive results. If not, maybe your results will inspire some of them to follow suit.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

BRY:

What you speak of is what I fight. Sometimes it seems futile.

I have to keep tellling myself that I can't control THEM, though (the bad eggs).

For the most part.....we have formed a quasi. co-op. The land owners are taking does, also. The poachers (poaching neighbors)....we can't control. With the access onto the new lands.....I hope to keep them out as best I can. They used to have sole access of these grounds....by virtue of the landowner not allowing ANY hunting;). With my presence, there, this year, I hope to be able to curttail their escapades. To be honest, though.....I value my life more than "deer". I'll move out when gun season kicks in.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

I know it's work. Keep doing what your doing though and I bet it will change. I'd expect it to take 1-2 more years for you Jeff to see a noticable difference. That's what it took both Dan and I.

With that said, I think increasing age structure of bucks is going to be very difficult to do on a property ofour size considering the pressure surrounding us (mine is 130acres, Dan's is 160 acres, both surrounded by knuckleheads).We are seeing more mature bucks now than 3-5 years ago, but I'm not sure if that's simply because we are hunting smarter. Hopefully we will see some progress this year though and see some of the countless 2.5's we didn't shoot at for the last several years.

At this point I can only think of one scenario where passing of a specific buck at 2.5 ended up in a definite sighting of him at 3.5+..............and unfortunately that one ended up like this (for those of you who remember this story). I had quite a history with this guy, wish it would have ended differently. [&:]

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Bryan:

I'm familiar with what QDMA says, I've been a member since 2001. My property has one neighbor that isn't QDMA exactly, but he won't shoot bucks unless they 8+ pointers. He won't shoot does. The other neighbor has given Dan and I exclusive permission to bowhunt, but gets slammed during gun season.My other neighbors are a circus and often trespass on our patches as well, although I think we will fix that this year. ;) Dan's property is surrounded by public property and other neighbors that shoot everything that walks.

I do not think it will be an easy task to improve age structure of the bucks unless you have 500+ acres. You may see measurable results, but certainly not what you would have if you could control an entire 500+ acre patch. We have seen limited success with that so far, but nothing that I would say is measurable and can be contributed directly to our choice to not shoot. I hope this will change, if not I will continue to do the same thing only because I know I can't shoot a big buck if my tag is already full with a small one. I do however strongly believe that you can directly affect the buck/doe population by thinning the doe herd. For every doe you take, if you have good bedding/food resources available another deer seems to replace it within a year. I've seen this consistently. It's a 50/50 chance it will be a buck/doe. Keep shootingthe does at a higher rate than what your attracting to relocate to your patch, and it's simple math. It works, and what Dan and I have seen is measurable, and no........none of our neighbors have helped with this.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

1.What's the herd dynamics where you hunt (doe v. buck numbers & overall deer numbers)? Overall deer numbers are VERY high. Too high. Buck:Doe Ratio isn’t ideal, but its not grossly out of whack.
[/b]
2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck? I am a hammer the does type of guy, and shoot a buck only if it’s a nice one. (“Trophy” to some)
[/b]
3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)? The same. I can’t[/b] get enough doe tags to deplete(or seriously affect) my areas population, so I would still shoot as many as I had tags for. If my herd had a larger population of mature bucks, I MAY get a little pickier on buck size, but as it stands, any mature looking nice size (P&Y) buck is fair game. [/b]
[/b]
4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way? No they seem to go hand in hand. [/b][/b]

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Let me get your take on this, Matt....

In the 2006 season.....I saw probably 14 or more 1.5 yr olds. I only took a precious few does, that year (2). Last year.....through a change of ideology.....I can attest to over THIRTY killed (by hunters and by sighted road/other kills).

In 2007....I saw NONE of the 1.5's as 2.5's. None. Of the 2-3 2.5's I saw in 2006.....I saw NONE of them as 3.5's in 2007 (which doesn't really surprise me. They are elsuive). I can only guess that the sheer number of does pushes them out of this habitat to take up home ranges, elsewhere. I also realize that buggering up my spots shooting does....AND by shooting the first doe that offers a shot....."probably" aided in my reduced buck sightings. But what's puzzling is.....no one was "managing" this land prior to 2006.....and they were there.

But I "have" to (for sanity's sake) hope I'll begin to keep more of the youngsters around to grow older, as I take more and more does. It'll hurt my buck hunting, while we're doing this.....but that's the "discipline" (one part of it)I think you're eluding to.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Jeff,
I think from year to year, the numbers of bucks a person sees can very greatly...as you've shown. I always see lots of 1.5 bucks. But I really don't ever see a ton of 2.5's. One year I did see maybe 8 or so. But the next I only saw 1-2 despite probably seeing 12-15 1.5's each year previous.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

The farm I hunt is around 2,000 acres. Maybe 20% is hardwoods, the rest is ag. Our location in SW Michigan has a high deer density. We do our best to take as many does as we can while shooting bucks 2.5 yrs or older. This was started 3 years ago and we have taken around 30 does between8 hunters. We try to shoot them at anytime except the first 2 weeks of November when we concentrate on the bucks. Its not a perfect plan but hunting has been more fun for us with a bigger goal in mind.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Jeff - I think you will see an improved buck/doe ratio in another year or two. To do this though, you need to keep shooting does, and ultimately keep that population below the carrying capacity, and if possible, improve the habitat (both bedding/food) to raise the capacity of the land. If the herd is below carrying capacity you will attract new deer to the property......it just seems to happen and it seems to happen at a rate of 50/50 at my place. If your shooting does at a faster rate than what the ratio of deer relocating there is,you will slowly start to see more bucks than does. It's simple math and it works.

As for seeing the bucks you have passed.............I don't know if you will see measurable results from this. It's been limited at my place and Dan's. What I have seen, is new bucks that I've never seen before, some of them are shooters some of them are not. I believe they are relocating there because of the "space" I'm making by thinning the does. They don't seem to stick around for more than a year or so though, and I'm not sure if that's because we suck as hunters, if the neighbors/trespassers are getting them, etc. I think it's because we don't have control of a big enough area to really "protect" them.

I said above there is only one scenario where a buck we chose not to shoot made it to being mature, and I was actually wrong. The one pictured above was one scenario, and the NY rifle buck I killed in 06' (Dan aged as 3.5, he's certified in NY to age deer and worked for DEC doing so) Dan passed as a 2.5 duringbow season the year before. So that's 2 seperate instances where passed deer were seen as an older "shooter" buck. Limited success there, but if you keep thinning the does the new bucks just seem to appear every year. Hope this helps.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Thanks, Rybo. What's disheartening, to a degree, is hunting 48 times and seeing FOUR different bucks......3 of which were 1.5's.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Been there man. Been there. Except all of mine would be 1.5's.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

1. What's the herd dynamics where you hunt (doe v. buck numbers & overall deer numbers)? Deer numbers are in that 1,000,000 range. Doe to buck numbers- how anyone can honestly answer this with accurate numbers is beyond me. Its impossible. The ratio around me is way more in favor of the doe's, it needs to balance out more meaning less younger bucks being shot.

2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck? Opportunist I would say with a touch of trophy as well. If I have extra tags I'll get myself a doe or doe fawn. If buck hunting its 130" on up which most likely is 4.5's in my woods. If a 3.5 would sport the same size rack I'd be shooting also I think.

3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)? Same answer as question #2 but probably a bit more picky on the rack size (140" on up being my buck heard would be that much better).

4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Sure does. I explained this already above.
Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way? As far as I'm concerned the way I'm managing the property is the way it needs to be done.



Another thing too. I think its impossible for 1 or 2 bow hunters to manage a doe herd in an area where your trying to thin the doe's out where you can only shoot a few does each year.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Matt, I figured with what you are doing you knew that about the QDMA, that was more for those that didn't.;) It really sounds like an uphill battle you have, but I like the perspective you have on shooting does that you have a 50/50 chance of it being replaced by a buck. It's true that while that doe is alive and living in your area that you have zero chance of it being replaced by a buck. So you are giving yourselves a fighting chance in that regard. I just never thought of it like that. It's unfortunate that your efforts are not beingfollowed by your neighbors, but not all that surprising either.

Good luck in keeping the ball rolling with your management plan. It does sound like you are making progress, so I hope that you will see the fruits of your labors sooner rather than later.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Is it possible to segregate your buck hunting from your doe culling? Maybe invite a trustworthy friend with a rifle to shoot does exclusively from a rifle set-up stand. Get a feeder and kill does there.

You're assigning some statistical signicance to sighting differences thatare probably a result of other factors (you mentioned elusiveness, other 'hunters' etc). My plan is to continue killing does at periphal stands, hunt the biguns at my prime spots around Halloween and hope the dog hunters don't spoil the last three years' work.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

I'm sure it is.....BUT.....you have to hunt "where they are". In doing this.....I AM going to bugger up some spots. If done early enough, though, maybe I can reduce the "intrusion" factor.

Not possible. Bowhunting, only.

I'm not above that.....just haven't chosen to hunt this way.......yet.

Yes I am. I don't know any other way to depict it.

Insert "Poachers" for "dog hunters" and you described my plans, as well.;) See....I REALLY, truly believe that the bucks I've shot in the last two years don't frequent the grounds I've been hunting until nearing the rut. I think they have other places they hang out, until then. So.....I'll likely hunt those spots for a couple weeks (until Oct. 1) and then stay clear until late Oct.

Thats the plan.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

I usually shoot about two to three does per year and 1 buck. I would consider myself more of an opportunist for the most part. The last couple of years I have tried holding out for something bigger buckwise and I am increasing that each year doing this. However I do not really care if I don't get a monster buck. If a average deer comes within range and presents a great shot opportunity than I usually take it and be thankful for the chance that I have to do this every year.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

I shoot what I can ....2-4 deer per year ... looking to fill the freezer .... If everyone around me said, "Hey, let's not shoot anything under an 8, I would say ... ok .... but they don't ... if they change the AR in NY, I will not complain, nor will I advocate for it ... I will justgo out and still try and take my 2-4 deer per year ... to fill the freezer ... I will hunt within the limits that the DEC has set forth no matter if they ony let me take one per year, and enjoy myself ...... it's deer hunting ... it's not helping someone with their eternity ....


If stressing over the herd makes any of you guys happy, then stress away .. I'm gonna have fun, and I will fight for your right to be happy in your pursuit in whatever way you please .....

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

So to ask a direct question, PT......

If you KNEW the herd where you hunt was heavily doe-laden......would you still fill (given the opportunity) your two buck tags......and forego the culling of does (assuming you had multiple doe tags)? I'm asking this.....because there ARE people who KNOW the herd dynamics in the specific area they are hunting doesn't "jive" with the amount/disparity of tags issued.

Those who subscribe to this way of thinking are (IMO) "part of the problem".

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

If I could fill my freezer with doe like you can, no way would I shoot small bucks ..... it's so different where I am, tho .... there are a good amount of bucks here ....not a ton of bigguns, there are some tho .... so to put 4 deer in my freezer .... there is gonna be at least one buck going down .... no matter how old .... BB's excluded ...

did I answer your question, Jeff?

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Part of who's problem? Suppose I subscribe to that way of thinking.I don't have a problem with what I am doing.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Let me rephrase.

If you will forego the herd dynamics to appease your hunting style.....then you are "part of the problem".

To put it a different way, PT.....if you knew the herd you hunted (SPECIFIC, local herd) had poor buck:doe ratio.....but your state didn't recognize that area, specifically, and allowed you two buck tags and two doe tags......and you filled them all......

Then I would say you were part of the problem.

If you will ONLY trophy hunt in areas that are heavily doe laden.....then you are part of the problem.

MY opinions, only. If you're hunting legally.....then you only have yourself to appease.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

the herd in my honey hole is dang near even....actually ive only seen a few does in there in 2 seasons now...actually same doe and 2 fawns i seen 2 or 3 times...

but i keep goin back because it seems to be a big buck hideout...food and great cover and enough woods to stret2ch their legs in the daytime and not be seen and no pressure except me...

in that area, im buck hunting only...most of the area around my home im buck hunting only...

we do ALOT of driving in rifle and flintlock season...we dont see every deer, but we see most of them...we know what we have and we know we have a prettttty good buck to do ratio...we also know that other guys will take does...so we dont...

years prior, i did my part and took does...and continue to get doe tags for areas i hunt so if/when i find a place that has alot of does, i can take one for the freezer and out of the herd...


if everything was pretty balanced and NOONE took does, i would take them myself...(i love venison and so does dad...we can put a hurtin on meat so thats never an issue...if it was i can always donate it..) and i dont have a problem with killing does when the numbers are stable and you are looking to keep that stability and ratio....

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Because "the problem" is all speculation,and tends to change every decade or so depending on what the "latest" studies show, I could give a rip about what the "scientists" say ..... I want to put 4 deer in my freezer ..... where you hunt, they would be all doe or a mature buck andthe rest doe .... where I hunt, it very well might be2 yearling bucks and2 nice fat doe ...... and that wouldn't be a "problem" ;)

did THAT answer your question?Ifnot you might need to rephrase yet again ....I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer ...:D

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

If you have no problem discerning if you have a doe problem or not.....I'd say you don't.;)

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Jeff ....as I said, your case is different ..... my goal is to have fun filling my freezer ....... I can't fathom all the deer you have over there ....

These guys are running ALL over where I hunt ... Isaw DOZENS of them last year ....

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

Then it appears you have a pretty good buck:doe ratio......

Good for you.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

I've stated this many times on this forum. I hunt for me only, if a trophy buck is the first thing by I'll shoot it. Same if a doe or young buck comes by. If that makes me part of the solution or part of the problem I could care less. Since I buy my own tags and pay my own way I hunt my way.

RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
 

gutshot:

I know a few guys, here,......even in our heavily doe-laden areas.....who shoot nothing but bucks.

I don't begrudge them for hunting "their way"........not one bit. But they are (IMO) "part of the problem".

I've said it before....."I" was part of the problem, myself, two years ago.