RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

I agree Mobow. 5 years ago I tested this theory with my recurve against a compound with an over draw. My recurve shoots about 210 fps, his compound was 260 fps. My arrows weighed in at about 600 grains, his on the compound were 400 I think it was. Whatever they were they were much lighter arrows. Both arrows were tipped with a bear razor COC broadhead. For the test we used a 5 gallon pail full of sand. My recurve smoked this compound for penetration at 10 yards. I had 2 holes, the compound only had 1. Thats momentum!!

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

If you aren't sending your arrows through a deer, anyways....I supose it would be,.......to some;):D

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

ooooo that one hurt [&o][:-]

light and fast or heavy and slow, both will kill deer ... I like the heavier, "slow" combo myself

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

What's wrong with the POV......................nothing totally factual.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Actually....there's nothing totallyNOT factual. That wasn't the point.;)

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

double negative ...... you get an F

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Jeff....that's what I would define as a heavy arrow flying "painfully slow." ;) I would also tend to agree, there is a point of diminshing returns, and that point is different for each and every bow made. That 250 fps arrow may be coming off of a 15 y/o Golden Eagle, and I'm sure yours is coming from your shiny, new bowtech. The new bow is MUCH more efficient. But, old school had to shoot heavy arrows to get the KE and momentum.

I almost posted this in my previous, but deleted it. GENERALLY speaking, with today's modern equipment, I believe all of this to by marketing and hype, and mostly moot. Last year I was shooting a 355 grain arrow 318 fps, for 80 #'s of KE. I don't know the exact momentum number. This year, I'm shooting a 480 grain arrow 282 fps, producing nearly 85#'s of KE, and again, I don't know the momentum number. I'm pretty sure (and judging by the 128" 8 point now hanging on my wall ;)) my light arrow had PLENTY enough to get the job done.

I think we're to the point, again, generally speaking, there will be exceptions, that all it is now is a matter of how far in the dirt the arrow is going to be after blowing through the deer.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Are we REALLY gonna stoop to this, T?[&:]

Don't you mean "moot"....or were you talking aboutpeople who can't talk?

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Don I agree with all of that.

The thread was based on an article where "I" thought the author was being a bit (understatement) "misleading". Was he factual in his PRECISE claim? Yes (never denied that). Was he misleading? I think he is/was.

Again.....if I wrote an article in ESPN the Magazine of MLB hitters.....and stated within it that the average bat weighed 6 ounces......would you find that "misleading" (although, in reality, it IS "factual";))?

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

All that I can add is think God that I could care less. But I'm with Rob, Jeff you have analyzed the crap out of this one.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

that is SO unlike him .....[8D]

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

If that's the case. gutshot....it's my issue, then.

When the author talks about "all things being equal"......"I" simply assumed he meant the same bow.

Again.....MY issue.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

And issues are things that you have plenty of.:D

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

As has always been the case with archery - fads make the bowhunting world turn. The newest fad is the return to heavy arrows, feathers, trad bows, etc... Faster was always better - at least until we got to the point where most manufacturers can't make them go any faster. Now that they've topped out the speed game - heavier is magically better (again).

Everybody who has ever shot a deeris a self-proclaimed "expert" in this field. Why, you ask? Because they have the results to prove it. They have a bloody arrow weighing ________ grains, and a deer carcass that's a testament to their arrow's lethality.


Same As Others

Theproblem here, is that a lot of the opinions being floated on this subjectare largely uninformed as to the polar extremes.The self-proclaimed "authorities on the subject"have never visited the land that is two standard deviations from the mean. If you've never fired a 200-grain arrow into a deer... Or never even fired a 200 grain arrow(period) - do you really have any real-world knowledge to draw upon? Can you REALLY tell us what will happen? Is there an agenda?Is it mere speculation?

I'd argue the latter.

Last year, when I told you guys that I was hunting deer with a 5.5 gpi arrow at sub-300 grains, and approaching 400 feet per second - you'd have thought the world was ending. Well, we all know how that story ended. I set out to prove a point, and I did it.

The point here is - pay no attention to the bell curve.

Manufacturers are always angling, both explicitly and implicitly - through their advertising, through their people - to shuffle people into the hump of the curve, which is where THEY like to live and dominate. The more narrow the curve, the easier it is to target their demographics andmax out theirsales numbers. Narrowing the bell curve allows manufacturers to focus their sales with a smaller product basket, which gives them a better economy of scale, and enormous profit margins. Furthermore - certain products (like heavy arrows) give them less headaches from a warranty/liability standpoint. Don't think for one second that they do what they do with your best interests in mind. It's all about assets and liabilities. Whether you believe it or not, to them, you are nothing more than an outstandingliability.

Even when you see the appearance of "impartiality," perhaps in the context of a magazine article (like the one Jeff referenced)- reader beware. Most authors are very well-connected in the archery world, and have (or want to have) their hands in a lot of different pockets. There's always an agenda being pushed, or a back being scratched. Believe it.


It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Falling into the bell curve, however, does nothing for you - the consumer. It just means that you're doing what they want you to do. You are making their life easier.

Let's pretend for one second that you decide to be your own dog and stray from the pack. What happens then? Well, the more elongated the bell curve (as more peopledeviate from the average),the WIDER range of products that must be available to accommodate an increasing demand for a wider variety of products (heavy AND light arrows). It's HARDER and less profitable to be a seller, but the buyer is given more latitude to deviate from the "same as others" category. Manufacturers are forced to innovate, increase tolerances, and make better products. You force their hand.

The King's message for today: Life as a consumer is a constant battle - and everybody has an agenda. You just can't lose sight of the forest for the trees, and NEVER be afraid to deviate from the mean. You do the rest of the world a favor everytime you do.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

hence the case for ....dare I say it ...... scent lok [8D]

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Hey Fran.....

Do you see a day when mfr's tout "momentum produced" i.l.o. IBO speeds?

If so....how far are we from that point?

isn't that the ONLY way "they" can produce numbers to dispel your bow's "efficiency"?

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

+1

This is the worst thread in a while. Just another "whats wrong with this" Post from jeff. ...........Unbelivable...................

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

I see the word "momentum" being floated a lot more often these days - depite nobody having a blessed clue what it is or how to calculate it. It's really kinda comical.

All I know is that the whole concept of "light arrows" scares the living **** out of the bow manufacturers.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Fran just for the record, I have no real-world knowledge of what cow poop taste like, but I am guessing, I would not like it:D

Eli Calaway(SP?) once said "You cannot argue with Physics"

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

http://www.alaskafrontierarchery.com/Articles.html

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Jeff doesnt like baiting. Yet he throws out these countless little posts and then waits in ambush for any response to "debate". Why doesnt everyone just start to agree with him regardless of how absurd and then he can have a chance with Dr. Phil's help to get over his chronic superiority complex.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Tony....I kinda thought the attacks ad hominem were below you....;).

If, in the absence of an argument to support your "side", though.......one stoops to this.....I suppose I can understand it.

I get that a lot.[8D]

See...that didn't take long!:D

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Two year hunting expert!!!!

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Just gets so OLD. Who wants to post and get the same drivel over and over......

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Fletch.......Why click on it?

Seriously....if it gets old......pass it up!

If you don't agree with the poster's POV.....call him a poopy-head.

THAT'S intelligent!:D

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Belive me, I normally do. But week after week after week......the same incessant mantra....... just makes me think you might actually like being a poopy-head.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Jeff, specifically, yes. I think the author was a bit misleading. But most are, honestly. Here's a whole other topic, but the hunting world has become SOOOOO commercialized, it's just all about the money. EVERYTHING out there is revolved around that one thing. And, self preservation.

Like I said in my previous, most of it is marketing and hype. I tend to view most magazine articles in the same light, though I will readily admit I enjoy reading them.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Thanks, Don.

While I agree with the rest of your post in totality......I've found that D&DH is (IMO) the best of the rest. I just found this article "misleading", TOO. And also like you....I'll keep reading it and weighing it, accordingly.

Thanks, again.;)

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Writers make their living putting together articles to sell...This point is argued by bow hunters, rifle hunters and muzzle loading hunters all the time...A few months from now the same author might have an article on the advantages of shooting a lighter, faster arrow...

With a rifle bullet, if you double the weight of the bullet, you double the energy...If you double the velocity, you increase the energy by 4 times...

Increasing velocity flattens out the trajectory, making holdover less critical at longer range...That is the advantage of a faster arrow...As long as you have enough weight and speed to penetrate a deer and you are able to hit the deer in the lungs then you have enough momentum...

Was the statement misleading??? Sure...I've read many articles with misleading statements, but the writer was successful, because he made money when he sold the article...

Was the statement incorrect??? Nope...

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Thanks, NC. I agree with that.;)

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

Jeff I am just playin ....... if you wanna play the circular logic game for the purpose of long threads, have broad shoulders .... you'll need them ...;)

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

If you're saying that the premise was as "questionable" as the "conclusion" (given the subject matter)........I'd say circular logic describes the original quote, precisely. I just brought it to light.

Guilty.[8D]

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

For the record, I can see you smirking ..... I know I have "bit" on the bait you have casted my way so as to increase the length of your threads ... but I want you happy, Jeff.... so here is yet another post :D

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

I don't think Jeff was on a fishing expedition here - just pointing out that the author was seemingly speaking in absolutes - where the "truth" is hardly "absolute."

Making smalltalk when there's nothing better to talk about. No harm, no foul.

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:D

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I guess magazine writers are gods and never make mistakes and everything they say is gospel? Man, lighten up on the magazine guys, they are what makes your morning constitutionals so enjoyable, after all.[:-]

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

No "bait" here, T.....just have a valid reason to why you believe what you do.

And you surprise ,me, sometimes.



That last post is a PERFECT example of an ad hominem attack.

We disagree. I can live with that. I won't make fun of you (or anyone)over it, though. I won't call you an "idiot"....won't call you a "moron".....won't post up photos of a dog up another's ass as a depiction of anyone who DOES agree with you. We just disagree.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

An arrow travelling at 270 fps is going 300+ miles per hour. At that speed, whether it is heavy or light, with a sharp blade on it and proper targeting, it will do enough damage whether it is heavy or light to make the kill. At slower speeds, it might make a difference, but not a the speeds most compound bows propel arrows.

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

I may me mistaken, but I think preach was calling fran a kiss ass;)

RE: What's wrong with this POV?
 

[quoteI may me mistaken, but I think preach was calling fran a kiss ass;)
][/quote]

I don't think you're mistaken, at all;)