Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Seeing Gary's thread and hearing about New York's expanded antler restriction program got me wondering what your thoughts are on Antler restriction programs in general .....

This is from the NyDEC's website ....

The pilot antler restriction program in the Southern Catskills has been expanded and now includes WMUs 3C, 3H, 3J & 3K.
The regulations REQUIRE that bucks taken in WMUs 3C, 3H, 3J and 3K have at least one antler with 3 points (or more) which are at least one inch long. This restriction applies to the archery, regular and muzzleloading seasons.
Important: Hunters under 17 years of age are exempt from the three point requirement.
Why is this change being made?
For nearly 100 years, a "legal buck" has been a deer with at least one antler that is 3 inches long or longer. However, in recent years, other states have experimented with programs to change the age structure of bucks. In simple terms, these programs produce bucks that live longer. These programs have been well received in other locations, and we are now examining this form of deer management in New York State.
The pilot program was initiated in 2005 in WMUs 3C and 3J. Based upon strong local support, the antler restriction pilot has been expanded to include WMUs 3H and 3K in 2006. It will provide important information for both hunters and the DEC, and the results will be widely shared when they are available.

With 2005 being the first year of antler restrictions in WMUs 3C and 3J, buck harvests were down 65% in WMU 3C and 40% in WMU 3J. This was an expected decline, but DEC predicts that buck takes will return toward normal levels in 2006 and 2007 with a larger number of older bucks seen and taken by hunters. A similar trend is predicted for WMUs 3H and 3K with a reduction in buck take in 2006 followed by steady increases toward normal buck harvests in subsequent years.



Your thoughts?????????????

Assume all 4 choices allow youth to take any buck..

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

I'm assuming your No 4 choice includes amendments that allow youth and disabled hunters certain leeway. If so....I'll go back and vote that way.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Antler restrictions are not the cause of theproblem in PA.

Its the unending doe slaughter that has some people up in arms.[:@]

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Let's assume all 4 choices allow for youth up to 18 to take any buck ........

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Tony,
I asked how everyone in PA felt about the AR that were introduced there, and the only person who wasn't FOR the AR was Buckeye, because he's afraid Rob and Co. will ALL start shooting bigger bucks than him too!!!! ;)

But seriously, everyone of those guys that I'd talked with about them LIKED them. That's saying something, at least to me. I think that this part

[Important: Hunters under 17 years of age are exempt from the three point requirement. ] , is very important in getting guys to be MORE accepting of AR, because MANY guys I've heard against them used their kid as a reason they were AGAINST them. Though, I think 3 point is a little lax for MOST places, considering the number of deer that for some odd reason don't grow brow-tines/eye guards in NY, I think 3 is reasonable.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Ya know T....I wasn't expecting that![8D]

Since you put it that way.....I had to think about it.

In doing that....I realized that it isn't about big deer for everyone. While I'd like to see more (bigger. older)and better (racked)deer in the woods....It's not all about me.

I voted against them.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

mixed emotions for me as well. It wouldnt affect me to much but i would not like it if it did the youth. Indiana's problem has been the long gun season.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

I voted for them. They have made a small difference. But this statement here is correct. I know several people, including yours truley, who are buying doe tags, and using them as beer coasters. Sometimes the sportsmen have to take things into their own hands. Specially when you have a game commission like ours. I think they are being sued right now for the 5th year in a row? one day they will get it together. :(

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

I voted against. I echo GMMAT's assesment on the issue. Who am I to tell someone how they can or can't enjoy deer hunting so I will have a chance at a bigger deer. Shoot whatever makes you happy.

If big racks are that important to you there are plenty of avenues to shoot a wallhanger without telling someone else what to shoot.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

I used to be against them, but nowI am 100% for them.

I now understand why DNR and states do them. In states with to many deer it does help with the doe harvest. Yes mobo even in 1 doe counties it helps. It helps with states/counties who want to maintain numbers as well.

We have had a history of peaks and valley's in our deer numbers. What AR's do is help change a mindset, instead of waiting forbuck, a hunter may shoot that first nice doe now. IMO AR's will help keep deer numbers in check, and avoid the explosions in numbers we have had in the past.

Mobo it's not all about the antlers, on the surface it appears that way, if we truly are conservationlist, we should support state DNR's programs. It goes both was also, if mandates come out on no shooting does because of numbers in an area, we should be happy to follow them.

AR's do not just help with bigger bucks;) It's also a great tool for herd reduction. OBR is great also IMO

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Well, What if you see a fully matured buck that is genetically inferior? such as a 5.5 year old 3x3 wont even break 80 inches?

Ryan.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

100% for them, luv them, hope they never go away.

mez, all game laws regarding deer tell people what they can and cannot shoot and when. Antler restrictions are about the deer, without them here in PA it would be the same old slaughter of 1.5 year olds as it was in the past.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

AR's are in place not for the guy looking for the next state record. Its about and should be about a healthy deer herd. Which as some states are experiencing a problem with. The one I know for sure is PA. The state I live in. Its not about telling someone what they can or cannot shoot, its about developing and controlling a deer herd, a healthy one at that, for the future, for all hunters. Look at it as a practice that will insure your grandchildren will have healthy deerpopulationto hunt.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

that buck would make the most restrictive AR ...... I would think anyway ....

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Doesnt affect me, but 3 antlers would mean a 4 point was the smallest buck you could shoot, I would be happy with a spike right now.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

How does restricting which Bucks you can shoot but not restricting which Does you can shoot make for a healthier herd?

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

i like antler restrictions, it allows the buck in most cases to not get shot because during the rut deer come running in and the hunter has to count 4 points on one side and sometimes the buck doesnt allow u the chance to do that so it lives another year

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Exactly;)

MI is a great example, Jackson County has like 100 deer per sq mile. We had over 5000 doe permits left over in Jackson county. Just crazy, now if DNR wants to permit more doe harvest how are they going to do so? We already had 5000+ permits unsold, AR is the answer IMO. AR force hunters to shoot does, in a state condition to shoot bucks AR are great IMO.

Bruce when we start shooting 70% 1.5 does, I bet we have some issues

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

in PA it has to have 3 points on one side for it to be legal I do believe.... thus making it a rare occourance but it could happen and then you have that buck knocking out a bunch of does, thus making more bucks it could get out of control fast but looking at it like that what if the buck dosent ever get noticed or killed and its bucks have little bucks that would make a whole area genetially inferior right? Its sorta a touchey subject.

Ryan.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

This is a GREAT question .......

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Check my post above.

Simple AR promote the shooting of does, and if one is following QDM to a tee, it's going to be a mature doe. This last fact is left out a lot. But the guys practing QDM target mature does also;)

We have been condition to shoot bucks.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Bruce,

In the last few years, PA's deer heard has been thinning in a hurry. The idea for AR's is to allow bucks to mature, giving you more buck who will expand and reproduce. I understand the point that as you know from my posts, that people are using this as an excuse and wacking away at the doe population. Which in years past was to great. We had few bucks, to many doe. Now we are creating more buck, but thinning the doe. If you are from PA in every game news issue or your local game news in different areas especially upstate in the big woods areas, you can read a dozen articles in a month about what is happening. That is why the Game commission is catching so much heat right now. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

You are right, just having AR's does not create for a bigger population while you are giving unlimited doe tags or huge numbers of doe tags. But its a start....... which hopefully PA continues to iron out and get right.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

im in PA and been a resident for 21.5yrs and a hunter for 9 years...

IMO im all for antler restrictions...AND i do believe that herd reduction was needed.

our herd has the genetics and food...we just had a HORRIBLE buck to do ratio and lacked age classes...still need to work on the age classes which ARs can help with.

some of the state is doing well...others, well...we need everyone to play by the rules...and need the doe hunters to stop pulling the trigger on the ONLY doe they seen in the season...

NY is pretty similar to the OLD PA from what i understand...

now its to the point that i see as many backs as i do does...its pretty even with me and my hunting party...PA can become a great state to hunt if the hunters would wise up...

got guys shooting illegal bucks...others shooting the ONLY doe they seen all season and complaing theres no deer...illegal buck harvest takes place almost regular on some private land areas....i hear it on the radio a couple times a season but can never pinpoint the slobs...find the dead ones laying in the woods with perfect kill shots on them...just need everyone to cooperate...PA got some awesome habitat from suburbs to farmland to crp land to rolling hills to the hemlock mountains etc...it can be a wonderful place to hunt...

ARs are definently helping...and HR has done its part to get the buck to doe ratio more in balance...now we just need some age class....

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

We've been asking for years now how healthy a dead doe herd is?
Because in PA the only good doe is a dead one .And as of today the shame commission starts selling enough tags to guarantee another slaughterfor this coming fall.[:@]

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Yes it IS a great question.

Someone remind me.....which age class bucks do the majority of the breeding?

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

100% against for central and western NY.
Management needs to be done on a far smaller level then statewide.
I shoot a bunch of does every year and let the younger bucks walk BY CHOICE because I like watching them.
You want more bucks then make it mandatory to use a buck tag on ALL button bucks.
Statewide average is 30% !!! of the antlerless kill is BB's!!!!!!!
Stop this and you will save far more then any misguided AR program.

Steve

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

I don't see how this makes a healthier herd. Does can have twins or even triplets so, if you shoot a Doe, you have potentially taken out 3-4 deer. You shoot a buck and the Does will still get bred by other bucks, just not bucks with "huge" racks ;).

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

So, you're saying that states that implement AR's are follow QDM to a tee a targeting mature Does? Somehow I'm not believing that LOL.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Ill play the game. Answer is 3-5yr olds. or 2-4yr olds in PA. But without AR's how do we get to that age? Did I miss the meeting where all hunters get together and decide who and how many spikes and 4pointers we are going to take?

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

C'mon bawanajim, you know that a healthy herd consists of 3 times as many "huge" racked bucks as it has Does ;):D

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Unfortunately you didnt read the post all the way through where I said the Game Commission gives unlimited doe tags or a rediculous amount of doe tags. If we stop that, and no one can shoot doe is that healthy? A billion doe and a few buck? Or if we llimit the doe tags, and equal out the number of buck and doe, is that a healthy deer heard. AR's are for the buck side, PA has yet to figure out the doe. Hence why I know many PA hunters are taking matter into their own hands and buying doe tags and sitting on them. Correct me if I am wrong, is an equal amount of buck to doe a bad thing? Is that unhealthy?

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Steve this is an extremely bad idea, and I was for it until I was told what happens.
Making hunters put buck tags on bb would decrease a doe harvest a lot, if you want hunters to shoot some does, it's not good managment idea.

This is why AR's work

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

What is the ratio now and how do you get that figure? Is a 3:1 ratio unhealthy?

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Please where did I say "states", I said guys;) AR's are not part of QDM at all, but like I said, I understand why statesdo it now.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

How can a state get a healthy herd by just managing half the equation? Is there ANY state that manages the Doe population with restrictions like they manage the Buck population with AR?

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Bruce I like balance, better than healthy:D

I would do flips if MI was 3 to 1, LOL 2 to 1 is about as good as most high population states can ever hope for IMO. I will take it[8D]

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

LOL You are the one that brought QDM into the argument over antler restrictions and now you are telling me AR's are not part of QDM. Why did you mention it then?:D

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Well I just went out back and gave a hollar for them to all come so I could get an accurate count. They must be busy because they didnt show. But we could listen to what the game commission says they havent lied to us before. Coyote popluation. Mountain Lion in PA???? HAHA right they havent ever done or said anything that wasnt right. I can tell you at this time of year I see way more buck killed in my area by cars then doe. They arent chasing anything right now. If you shuffle through my posts, I am not arguing the fact that people shouldnt shoot doe. I am arguing the fact that to many people are shooting to many doe. In some counties of MD Bruce, you guys have the exact opposite problem that PA has. To many buck to many doe. Hence why montgomery and some others are 2bucks and unlimited doe correct? Or is it 10 doe? Its quite a bit. But also in those counties, the hunter population I would assume is about 1/4 of what the hunter population in a similiar county in PA is. I guess this bc I hunt mont. md and mont pa extensively, so I am going from what I see personally.

I know when I was younger, i traveled upstate to big woods to hunt with my fathers hunting buddies. Every given year I would see min 50 deer. Now you go upstate, to the same place, your lucky if you see 5. I would sense theres a problem no?

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

If I believed for a nano-second that AR's were in place to promote a more balancedherd,I might be for them.

RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
 

Bruce it was about your question on shooting does age class, nothing to do with AR's;)