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Hawgz

I still have a hard time thinking your getting 342 fps out that bow

dick_cress

For what it' s worth, I never said that speed isn' t important because it is half of a very important and potent combination. Coupled with Mass and in the right combination with your set up you WILL get penetration due to the combination of the two.

Plug these equations into your calculator according to this basic formula
Mass (Velocity X Velocity / 450240):

Equation 1. 0 gr (342 X 342 fps / 450240) [Speed without Mass]

Equation 2. 315 gr (0 X 0 fps / 450240) [Mass without Speed]

With either of these setups, can you tell me how likely you would get measurable penetration?

Deerhntr1213

Okay, here is what i have to say, my goofy fishing buddys son shot and killed a spike buck with a 25# rascal in texas, dont ask why he went all the way to texas and shot a spike.like i said goofy, but the deer kicked like 30yards and flop, dead, this kid was 10 and was using an aluminum arrow with a 125grain thunderhead now i dont know the speed or KE but that cant be alot! Ohh yes and what about the diety of bowhunting himself mr. Fred Bear, he killed every game animal imaginable including elephants with his setup a recurve and cedar/whatother kind of his time..and that bow didn' t have the " speed" of he bows nowadays, but it sure had K.E.
As you say it
NEXT!

JRW

Over the course of many deer...several ribs, one vertebrae, and a shoulder blade. That good enough?

When people seem to think they need 50 or 60 foot pounds of Ke to get a passthrough on whitetails...I' d say it' s overrated.

Alright, let' s examine momentum for a minute...

Ke is a measurement of how much energy a projectile will strike an object with. It' s great for bullets, because they kill by shock. But, we' re not talking guns, are we? Momentum is a measurement of not only how hard a projectile will strike an object, but how fast it will lose energy (i.e. penetration). This is more applicable to to arrows, yes?

You say your wonder bow shoots a 315 grain arrow at 342 fps. Following the formula for Ke, you' ve got 81.83 foot pounds. My new recurve shoots a 505 grain arrow at 200 fps (on the button). I' ve only got a lowly 44.86 foot pounds of Ke.

Your bow has 82.41% more Ke than mine. Your bow will hit with 82.41% more energy than mine...but, we' re not shooting blunts here. We' re trying to penetrate the animal, so we need to take into account how fast that energy get' s lost. Enter momentum...

The formula for momentum (which actually IS an accurate indicator of potential arrow penetration) is... Speed X Mass / 225,120.

Your wonder bow, with its 315 gain arrows, only gets .4785 pound-seconds of momentum. My lowly recurve gets .4486 pound-seconds. Your bow, while initially hitting with 82.41% more energy, because of your 315 grain arrows, only has 6.66% more momentum than mine.

Are you understanding why Ke is overrated for arrows yet? Thanks for giving me the chance to educate you. It' s been my pleasure.

JRW

Fletchead

Krisken, Looks to me like you had your mind made up already and were just wanting to argue about the whole speed deal. I have a really hard time buying 342 f.p.s. with that setup, especially set up to hunt.I cant remember the specs on that bow excactly, but I know in was just a few more f.p.s than that set up I.B.O.Even if you were getting 342 ,I ran your specs through three different ballistic programs. Even with a ridiculously low f.o.c., vane height,vane length,and arrow diameter, best case scenario is 18 inches drop at fourty. One pin out to 37.Nope, not possible even at the claimed speed. If it was that would be one damn popular bow on the 3D circuit, and its not. Not calling you a liar, just miss informed.

Tree Hugger

Hi,

I' ll give it a try.

I read a article about this some years ago,but I don' t remember who wrote it or what magazine it was in.

I might not have it exactly right but I think I' ll be close.

It stated that there was a flaw in the formula of determining the KE energy from arrow weight and speed.It found that every thing being equal in which arrow penetrated the farthest.

It found that a arrow somewhere in the 400 grain range had the greatest penetration of all.

They found that arrows in this range had just the right amount of weight and speed to get maximum penetration.

I wish I could find the article,but it really blasted the light arrow-heavy poundage theory.I know from experience that once you get under 400 grains your asking for trouble.

This also goes for the real heavy arrow theory,the heavier arrow didn' t always penetrate more, because it didn' t have enough speed!

I realize that it depends on many variables,however it was stateing that if you are shooting a high poundage bow and want to get maximum perfomance in penetration to stay in the 400 grain area.

If someone out there also read this article let me know if I had it right or where I had it wrong,thanks.

PABowhntr

I am guessing this was a sarcastic statement to some extent as I did not discuss the " smaller sight window" issue or the " less reaction time" issue....though I did discuss both KE and trajectory so I might be misinterpreting your comment. Sometimes I believe it wise to start with one issue and work from there rather than to take on several issues at once and get confused in the process....

To address those two issues....

I have never shot a bow that will shoot in the speed range you are suggesting. I have not found a setup that will produce that speed without sacrificing either a low brace height or a harsh draw cycle due to either the heavy draw weight or hard cam style. Both of these characteristics are detrimental to the average bowhunter. However, I will be the first to say " to each his own" . If you are comfortable shooting a bow with these shooting characteristics then more power to you.

Having said that though I have shot a few bows that would put arrows out in the high 315-320 fps range. A 0-30, one pin trajectory was definitely realistic...assuming the one pin was sighted in for around 25-27 yards. However, it has been my experience that once that 35 yard mark has been reached then trajectory begins to curve more. That extra 20 or so fps that your bow is putting out in comparison to what I have shot might realistically get you another 5-7 yards but I would be hard pressed to believe more than that. I am not calling you a liar but rather saying that I would have to see it to believe it.

After reading your listed specs I went over to bow jackson' s trajectory calculator and punched in some numbers based on your setup.....with some assumptions such as using a 3 feather setup, 30 inch typical ICS carbon shaft....and with the arrow level at launch...

10 yards...1 inch drop

20 yards....7 inch drop

30 yards...15 inch drop

40 yards...28 inch drop.

However, if you sighted your bow in at 30-33 yards then I think it would be realistic for you to get a " one pin to 40 yard" setup with the understanding that you would be an inch or so high at 20 and a few inches low at 40.

In this scenario, with your second pin sighted in at 50 yards I do not think that the gap between both pins and the relative size of the animals body at a 45 yard distance would allow you to place both pins in such a position as to allow both to cover the animals body. One pin would likely be above or below the deer or both would be marginally " touching" the top of the deer' s back and the bottom of the deer' s belly respectively. Obviously, this discussion is assuming an average sized whitetail deer not a larger animal in which case your suggestion might be plausible.

Fletch asked me about those specs you listed. My opinion would be that, yes, those specs are realistic for the bow in question gentleman...assuming there is not anything on the bowstring besides a loop or brass nockset and that he is shooting at a 30 inch draw or more. The IBO for the Black Knight 2 is 350 fps. It is the fastest production bow on the planet..bar none and he is shooting at close to IBO specs in terms of the grains per pound ratio.

As for reaction time, I do not believe there is enough of a gap in time between a relatively slow arrow in comparison to a relatively fast arrow in order prove that the faster arrow is to any real advantage in reference to having a deer jump the string. Many of us have watched videos where bows shooting over 300 fps still missed deer at relatively close ranges and it was not the fault of the shooter. Either the bow was too loud or the deer caught movement and still had time to react after the arrow was released. An arrow of more moderate speed and moderate weight is likely to be quieter which decreases the chances of the deer spooking during the shot.

Respectfully to you I disagree. Any extreme in bowhunting equipment has always proven to me to be detrimental to the overall practicality of any given setup. Good discussion though.

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gunsnbowses

Speed is overrated! Accuracy is the ticket. Most hunters aren' t capable of consistently getting a clean kill at lengthy distances. Trajectory is only an issue at greater distances. I see many referances to whitetails in the responses. Scientists claim a whitetail is able to jump the string of any bow regardless how fast it is. In a wooded area, how often to do you have a clear shooting lane at 40 yards? Do the weather elements favor a shot at 40 yards? Is it raining or is the wind blowing?

There is always the human factor involved. Poor technique will be magnified at longer distances causing your arrow to stray just a little more.

Speed bows are more difficult to tune. I' ll debate anyone who denies that.

Granted, on occasion you may be forced to take a long shot at that trophy you' ve been after. You may only get one chance and it may be a difficult shot. Chuck Adams often discusses this fact. But he also stresses few hunters can deal with these circumstances. Most of the time, hunters miss or wound their target.

Nah- in my opinion speed is not a big deal. It might help on a 3D course, but in a hunting scenerio there are too many other variables. It may boost your ego to shoot 342 f.p.s., but my freezer will be just as full with a " slow" bow. To each their own!