RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Scott,
I recently was looking for a particular goretex hat for hunting out in Idaho where it always seems to be snowing ,sleeting or having freezing rain.They had the hat I was looking for (oregon research seattle sombrero)but the only color they had is where main part of the hat was blue.I wouldn't buy it because of the knowledge about deers vision you just mentioned.The sales woman thought I was nut's!:DI did order it in green and black.
Doofiest looking hat I have ever seen but it keeps your head dry and the elements from going down your back.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

I sent an arrow over the lungs but under the spine, no mans land, the void. HOGGWASH!

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

You just mentioned one of my all time favorites Rob.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

"All 4 hooves on a buck are the same size".

Front hooves are always larger on a buck.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

You can tell the sex of a deer by it's droppings.:eek:

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Brand X buck/doe pee is better than all the rest.

Brand X deer lure is better than all the rest.

BS.

I wish someone would prove me wrong on this.

LT

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Only if you taste them. Doe droppings are much sweeter. Try some.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Rob,
Dr Ken Nordberg thinks you can.Specifically not gender but body weight.By the length of the droppings.He actually carries a small tape measure with him all the time in the woods.
I find him a bit eccentric but he has written some very good deer hunting books and a bear hunting book and he has been quite successful in his hunting efforts.If you would like to read the pages he has devoted to droppings let me know,I will scan and email them to you.He has also written in regard to hoof length and width.
He is from Michigan so you have to take his information with a grain of salt.:D

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Idk if you guys here it but Ive always been told never to hunt a full moon. Why? Its so bright I sometimes dont even need my spotli....ahem Flash light.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

a deer needs to use 2 of its senses (sight, sound, smell) to detect you before it will run.........junk

always loved deer dont move in the rain, wind, or middle of the day.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Lmfao!!!! You damn right its true!

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Yep, I got that one down to a tee!;)

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

this one made me think of when people always say you can tell the sex of a deer by its tracks. i think thats not true either

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Carbon suits. Oh I use them, but if you put a gun to my head I might have to admit that I don't fully believe in them. I think if I dropped my clothes in baking soda every night and kept myself right I might be just as good to go.

And why do we all know what "scent free" soap smells like?

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Actually that is true but only because of the way they walk, not depth or necessarily size. When a deer walks, he/she'll place the back hoove in the track of the front hoove. If the second print is inside the first print it is a buck as a bucks chest is wider than it's hips and the reverse for doe, a does hips are wider than it's chest. It's not fool proof but it's mostly accurate (if you can tell which was first and second).

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

No that one definately is true. However there are times when one may look like another. For example, does walk on their toes and bucks on their feet... so you'll see the dew claws in a walking buck track as well as see the front "toes" often splayed open... however if the mud is really deep... or a deer was running, a doe track can look like a young buck track. But other than that its very easy to tell the difference by looking at the distance between the tracks, the shape and size of them, as well as the width of the shoulders (bucks have wider shoulders than hips, so the larger front tracks are usually set slightly to the right or left of the smaller hind foot, as well as in front of them a few inches). Fawns of course place their front and back feet in almost exactly the same spot.. so you get that double stamped look to their track.... however when they are fawns you cannot reliably tell gender by the track. Does tend to place their front and back feet almost together, but often in a straight line. And of course they walk on their toes and their toes are usually much much much closer together than on a buck track.

Sorry that got a little longwinded.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

When you see dew claws in a track, it's a buck. (relative to body weight)

If you see drag marks in the snow, it's a buck. (relative to how lazy a given deer is)

If you see deer crap in gobs, as opposed to the usual pellets, it's a buck.
(relative to what a given deer is eating)

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

I honestly thought it was the other way around. You do mean (by saying what you did) that the back hoof printwill be placed almost directly over the front hoof print?

If so...I learned something, today.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Correct, from a casually walking deer. If the second print, (the back hoof) is inside the first print (the front) the deer is a buck/male. A buck's chest is wider than it's hips and a does hips are wider than it's chest causing their back hoof print to be outside the the front hoof print.

Also, I don't buy the dew claw and weight theory. A mature doe will give a bigger print, heavier print that a 1.5 year old buck at times.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

X2
Most of the time I believe witha cross typewind so they can take advantage of all their senses. Thats why they circle down wind so much, Hunter makes grunt, buck does not see anything, buck circles and smells his ass.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Yep, Rob is spot on. A doe's back hips are wider to facilitate birthing fawns. So, her rear hoof willnaturally land to the outside of the front. A buck doesn't have that, so the rear hoof will land pretty much directly on top of the front. Not so perfectly that it looks like 1 track, you'll definetly be able to see that it's 2.....

I didn't believe that either when I read it....though it is logical. Then I started paying attention to tracks I was seeing, and looking at the tracks after I see deer pass.....Yep, it's true enough alright.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

What about a young or smaller (doe) deer, guys? Does that hold true in that instance?

Like I said....apparently I was way off in what I "thought" I've been seeing.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Here is a little bit of info Jeff
http://www.huntingnet.com/staticpages/staticpage_detail.aspx?id=149

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Thanks, T. That first photo is exactly how I've been reading them, here....and I guess I misunderstood the premise of Rob's and Mobo's posts. THAT is what I see when I think of a doe track (overlapping).

The buck track, pictured second.....is news to me. Good stuff.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

If you hunt with an outfitter your hunt is a slam dunk.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Nope. According to that, I've had it backwards....Though that's the first time I've read it that way. Every time I've ever read that it's been stated that a doe's rear hoof will land to the outside of her front, and a buck's will land almost directly on top of his front. So, I guess we've got contradiction here that needs some clarity. Which is it I wonder....??

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Come on Duke! It's a gland, dammit! (albeit a sweat gland) - and it smells.

Actually there are two types of glands up there... And I will look up the names and post them... They escape me at the moment. One begins with an A. The other begins with an S, I think.

Me find.
______________________________________________

Bingo. http://www.jstor.org/pss/1380266

Forehead Glands in White-Tailed Deer

Thomas D. Atkeson and R. Larry Marchinton
Journal of Mammalogy, Vol. 63, No. 4 (Nov., 1982), pp. 613-617 (article consists of 5 pages) [*]Published by: American Society of Mammalogists

[/align]
Apocrine (sudoriferous)and Sebaceous. Those are the names.

I'll research it more and report back.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Volatile Compounds from the Forehead Region of Male White-Tailed Deer (Odocoileus virginianus)

Journal: Journal of Chemical Ecology
Publisher: Springer Netherlands
ISSN: 0098-0331 (Print) 1573-1561 (Online)
Issue: Volume 23, Number 3 / March, 1997
DOI: 10.1023/B:JOEC.0000006397.63647.5b
Pages 569-578
Subject Collection: Biomedical and Life Sciences
SpringerLink Date: Monday, November 01, 2004

J.W.Gassett, D.P.Wiesler, A.G.Baker, D.A.Osborn, K.V.Miller, R.L.Marchinton and M.Novotny




[/align]AbstractSecretions produced by sebaceous and apocrine glands of cervids may be important in identifying individuals, establishing dominance, and signaling sexual readiness. The secretions from these glands are transferred to the hair for both lubrication and scent communication via forehead rubbing. We collected hair samples from the forehead and back of 10 male white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) of various ages and analyzed them with gas chromatography–mass spectrometry to determine age-related differences. Fifty-seven compounds were identified, including alkanes, arenes, aldehydes, ketones, aliphatic alcohols, terpenes, terpene alcohols, and phenols. Although forehead apocrine glands of dominant deer become more active during the breeding season, we found that concentrations of eight compounds found on the forehead hair were higher in subordinate deer, while only one was higher in dominant deer. Subordinate deer may have higher concentrations of these compounds because they rub less frequently than dominant deer. Additionally, only five forehead hair volatiles differed in concentration from those taken from the back hair. This seems to indicate that an increase in forehead glandular activity may take place concurrently with an increase in general integumentary glandular activity. The variation in hair volatiles among individuals also may be indicative of an individual-specific odor that could aid in identification.


[/align]
Forehead hair- Odocoileus virginianus -pheromone-scent communication-semiochemical-volatiles-white-tailed deer
__________________________________________________ _______

Sebaceous vs. Sudoriferous?

Sweat (Sudoriferous) Glands (p. 158; Fig. 5.3)
1. Eccrine sweat glands, or merocrine sweat glands, produce true sweat, are the most numerous of the sweat glands, and are particularly abundant on the palms of the hands, soles of the feet, and forehead.
2. Apocrine sweat glands are confined to the axillary and anogenital areas and produce true sweat with the addition of fatty substances and proteins.
3. Ceruminous glands are modified sweat glands found lining the ear canal that secrete ear wax, or cerumen.
4. Mammary glands are modified sweat glands found in the breasts that secrete milk.

Sebaceous (Oil) Glands (p. 159; Fig. 5.3)
1. Sebaceous glands are simple alveolar glands found all over the body except the palms of the hands and soles of the feet that secrete sebum, an oily secretion.
2. The sebaceous glands function as holocrine glands, secreting their product into a hair follicle or to a pore on the surface of the skin.
3. Secretion by sebaceous glands is stimulated by hormones.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

I think some of the confusion came from the exact definition of "inside". Jeff used a much better word (overlapping) for exactly how front and rear doe tracks often lay. "Inside" as it was read by some, actually should have read "overlapping", I think Jeff may have taken "inside" to mean the front tracks will not be as wide as the rear tracks, which is almost never the case in my experience.

Does (especially young ones, and fawns of both genders) will have tracks that "overlap". Does, however, do not broaden at the shoulder or really even the hip to a greater extent one way or the other (though it may be noticable, the tracks will often not fall completely outside a line from front to back). The tell-tale sign is the fact that there is no obvious "inside" or "outside" (meaning that the shoulders and hips are nearly identical width wise). And of course the fact that they walk on their toes. They do, however, get longer in the body, so as they pass into maturity, the tracks often will not overlap as much, if at all even.

Bucks, especiallyonce they hit twoyears of age start to develop shoulder mass. Their bodies also get longer, just like does, only more so. This growth continues to the age of about 4-5 years old. So, when you have a set of tracks with dew claw imprints, where there is one track offset from the the other the width of 2-3 of your fingers between them (noticable) and they are spaced greater than 3" apart front to back, you can reasonably figure you are dealing with a buck that is at least 4 years old.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Swamp, I'm not disagreeing, but until today EVERY article I've read on the subject has stated the exact opposite. All be it probably only about 2 articles....

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Mobow waswas never goingto kill a buck with his bow! :D;)

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

There are always exceptions so I don't ever think anything I see or hear or even learn is 100% all the time.There are doe tracks that will fall noticably offset from front to back, but still nowhere near as extreme as that of a buck.

Geography has a lot to do with it too ... where I live in SE VA, the size of a mature doe is about the size of an average fawn in the upper midwest. The differences are no doubt exaggerated as the deer get larger. Considering I've likely never looked upon a track made by a doe that was larger than 140#s (and even that is a stretch), the differences are probably not as extreme in the cases I have to go by. I'd suspect that the time of the year has a lot to do with it as well. If I had 80# worth of youngin's inside me I'd probably walk bowlegged myself.

Another thing I've found that can get your crossed up is understanding exactly how a deer was moving when it left the track. Deer don't casually walk very often... they wander like kids with ADD... sniff this... browse on this... pick my head up and look, turn around , walk over this way a bit, go around this, over that.... as they walk faster, their tracks spread out more and more. When they hit dirt, vs, sand, vs, snow, vs mud.... all lots and lots of variables that can have you look at a track and scratch your head.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

Thanks guys, I learned something today.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

thanks guys i learned something new on here again:)

but swamp, i was always told that when you saw the dew claws behind a track, that the deer was running, is there any truth to this?

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

The problem with that statement Rory is the word "always".

If you see tracks in very deep mud... like in a field after a rainstorm, then you will see the dew claws even on a doe who was just walking.... and it'll look at least twice size because of the way mud acts when you step in it.

Running deer (espeically if they are flat out gettin' it) will land on their feet and leave dew claw marks (usually, and that does apply to both genders).... however, a running track has other tell tale signs about it that identifies it as such. It is never as crisp and sharp, there is usually some indication of sliding, in loose soil there will be evidence of that loose soil kicked up behind running feet (espcially if the track is fresh). Also, the distance and pattern of the tracks will be much different from that of a walking/meandering deer. A big buck's feetin full stride might not hit the ground but every8-10 feet (thats feet as in 12" not deer feet by the way... I've been amazed at how far they go with just one stride).

When deer run, their two front feet and their two hind feet work together as pairs... you can really see the dew claw marks from the hind feet, as a deer digs in to launch itself forward. If you look closely in good soil at fresh running tracks, you'll see the two front feet are infact INSIDE the two hind feet (its a good point I didn't address in my two other posts on tracks... but this is true for both does AND bucks!). The back legs are where the power comes from, and the front two are for balance and steering (just like on a top fuel drag racing car... wide in the back, narrow in the front). You'll also see that the hind feet are pushing, and leave a track as such, while the front two feet are going in usually toe first, so you'll notice less of adew claw impression left from the front. The hind feet will also land IN FRONT OF the front two... so you'll have two tracks out wide and slightly forward of two closer together tracks. If you think about it when you watch a deer run, or look at a picture of one, you'll see exactly what I mean.

So while there often are dew claw impressions left by both sexes while running, you have to look at the big picture and try and figure out what was going on. A running track all by itself is relatively tough to judge. But the good thing about that is running tracks are often found crossing large open areas (like fields) where there is often decent soil to collect tracks.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

thanks for clearing this up for me swamp, i appreciate it:)

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

I have personally always believed there is in fact a void. I have a buddy, that skinned deer at a processor for several years, that says he has seen deer come in on several occaisions with scars from a passthrough in the "void". Also, a couple of years back I had a buddy that went down to Texas and shot a buck with his bow. They called in a tracker with a dog but still lost the deer. They let him continue his hunt with his rifle with the stipulation that he could only shoot the deer that he had wounded. He told the guides that it was a waist of time and that he would just head back home, but the guide bet him $100 that the deer would be back to the peanut field at some point in the next few days. So Bill stayed and hunted. The next afternoon, the buck he shot the day before came back into the same peanut field and he killed it with a rifle. He had shot the deer a couple of inches behind the shoulder and high (right under the spine). The deer was walking around fine the following day when he shot it a second time and you can clearly see where he hit him the previous day in the photos.

RE: Bowhunting Fallacies.
 

I know its a gland.. but its a sweat gland and it only permits scent at certain times of year... It is often just stated by writers as a gland that in there heads.

I know I'm a bit technical... but it bothers me[8D]