Speaking of scrapes
06-23-2008 | 07:18 AM
#11
Joined: Feb 2006
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RE: Speaking of scrapes
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
I wish I knew more about scrapes....
I've been lucky enought o see a few deer work them (including 4 work the same scrape within 1.5 hours of each other in the same morning). But....that same morning....the best buck I saw never went to the scrape (he waltzed by within 15 yds of it....but didn't work it). He likely (looking back) scent-checked the field....but decided against coming into it.
The others I've seen worked were more solitary....and only worked by a particular buck.
I "thinK" the only way I'd hunt a scrape again......is to see a really good buck working a particular scrape.....and go back to it. OR....if I had a LOT of good bucks in my woods...the "community" scrape route might be the ticket.
I have so few shooters where I hunt, though......that I like my odds in different areas, better.
These threads are always interesting, though.
I wish I knew more about scrapes....
I've been lucky enought o see a few deer work them (including 4 work the same scrape within 1.5 hours of each other in the same morning). But....that same morning....the best buck I saw never went to the scrape (he waltzed by within 15 yds of it....but didn't work it). He likely (looking back) scent-checked the field....but decided against coming into it.
The others I've seen worked were more solitary....and only worked by a particular buck.
I "thinK" the only way I'd hunt a scrape again......is to see a really good buck working a particular scrape.....and go back to it. OR....if I had a LOT of good bucks in my woods...the "community" scrape route might be the ticket.
I have so few shooters where I hunt, though......that I like my odds in different areas, better.
These threads are always interesting, though.
06-23-2008 | 07:27 AM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,368
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From: Mont County, Pa
RE: Speaking of scrapes
From what I've read in the past, doesn't a dominant buck make his scrape closer to his core area? This being an area away from the main trails, and community scrapes,that the bulk of the lesser bucks use? Maybe I'm mistaken.
06-23-2008 | 07:51 AM
#13
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 290
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From:
RE: Speaking of scrapes
ORIGINAL: early in
From what I've read in the past, doesn't a dominant buck make his scrape closer to his core area? This being an area away from the main trails, and community scrapes,that the bulk of the lesser bucks use? Maybe I'm mistaken.
From what I've read in the past, doesn't a dominant buck make his scrape closer to his core area? This being an area away from the main trails, and community scrapes,that the bulk of the lesser bucks use? Maybe I'm mistaken.
06-23-2008 | 08:00 AM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,204
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From: Pingree Grove, IL
RE: Speaking of scrapes
I think that me and MECHDOC will make a big ole fake community scrape this Friday near the "Rub Stop" and see if we can get pics of deer visiting it and checking it out. Knowing MECHDOC we will monitor the feces levels, take soil samples to determine how many different deer have visited and have hard data through pictures to establish a great hypothesis based off of our area.
06-23-2008 | 08:23 AM
#15
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,716
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RE: Speaking of scrapes
I've killed a lot of bucks out of scrapes (both natural and man-made)- and have seen them leave scat in the scrapes many times.
Matter of fact, I've got about 10-15 scrapes mapped out in my head right now, that if you went to them, they would certainly be open, active, and probably have some droppings laying around inside the clearing. Conversely, I've seen community-type scrapes go ice-cold overnight. I'd like to blame human contamination, but I think there's more than meets the eye at work.
Scrapes, to me, are the most interesting of all whitetail signposts. If you watch a buck or doe working a scrape over, it's almost as if they're engaging in a complete sensory indulgence - sniffing, licking, peeing, pooping - and thereis definitely more than one gland at work.
They're working the preorbitals on the licking branch, leaving saliva all over it. Then, they're leaving interdigital, anal, and tarsal scents all over the ground.
As far as the poop goes, although I've never specifically read anything on the subject, I'm guessing that deer are leaving scent markers through the anal gland. I know for sure that a lot of canines do this, and it is not very well understood. Animals are more scent and chemically reliant than humans could ever begin to appreciate.
As you watch, it's abundantly clear that they are experiencing a complete olfactory, vomeronasal, nasal, sudoriferous, preorbital and salivary experience. There are multiple chemical cues, scents, hormones and pheromonesat play,I just wish I understood it better.
One thing I've always wondered - regarding breeding: We would all concede that a male whitetail can easily distinguish whether a scrape has, in fact, been visited by a receptive doe. BUT, one thing that I've never really heard anyone discuss (and I think this is fact) - is whether there are chemical cues in the urine/scents/secretions of a NON-RECEPTIVE female that will give the males an outlook into the future to tell how far away she is from coming into estrus - so that they don't have to keep wasting their time coming back until the time is right.
That's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. You have to consider that there were times in history where deer densities were abyssmally low - and it would make sense for these animals to have a built-in system for mapping out when and where does will be ovulating and at what times - so as to not be wandering aimlessly and burning valuable energy.
Matter of fact, I've got about 10-15 scrapes mapped out in my head right now, that if you went to them, they would certainly be open, active, and probably have some droppings laying around inside the clearing. Conversely, I've seen community-type scrapes go ice-cold overnight. I'd like to blame human contamination, but I think there's more than meets the eye at work.
Scrapes, to me, are the most interesting of all whitetail signposts. If you watch a buck or doe working a scrape over, it's almost as if they're engaging in a complete sensory indulgence - sniffing, licking, peeing, pooping - and thereis definitely more than one gland at work.
They're working the preorbitals on the licking branch, leaving saliva all over it. Then, they're leaving interdigital, anal, and tarsal scents all over the ground.
As far as the poop goes, although I've never specifically read anything on the subject, I'm guessing that deer are leaving scent markers through the anal gland. I know for sure that a lot of canines do this, and it is not very well understood. Animals are more scent and chemically reliant than humans could ever begin to appreciate.
As you watch, it's abundantly clear that they are experiencing a complete olfactory, vomeronasal, nasal, sudoriferous, preorbital and salivary experience. There are multiple chemical cues, scents, hormones and pheromonesat play,I just wish I understood it better.
One thing I've always wondered - regarding breeding: We would all concede that a male whitetail can easily distinguish whether a scrape has, in fact, been visited by a receptive doe. BUT, one thing that I've never really heard anyone discuss (and I think this is fact) - is whether there are chemical cues in the urine/scents/secretions of a NON-RECEPTIVE female that will give the males an outlook into the future to tell how far away she is from coming into estrus - so that they don't have to keep wasting their time coming back until the time is right.
That's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. You have to consider that there were times in history where deer densities were abyssmally low - and it would make sense for these animals to have a built-in system for mapping out when and where does will be ovulating and at what times - so as to not be wandering aimlessly and burning valuable energy.
06-23-2008 | 10:12 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,288
Likes: 0
From: Kansas
RE: Speaking of scrapes
ORIGINAL: quiksilver
I've killed a lot of bucks out of scrapes (both natural and man-made)- and have seen them leave scat in the scrapes many times.
Matter of fact, I've got about 10-15 scrapes mapped out in my head right now, that if you went to them, they would certainly be open, active, and probably have some droppings laying around inside the clearing. Conversely, I've seen community-type scrapes go ice-cold overnight. I'd like to blame human contamination, but I think there's more than meets the eye at work.
Scrapes, to me, are the most interesting of all whitetail signposts. If you watch a buck or doe working a scrape over, it's almost as if they're engaging in a complete sensory indulgence - sniffing, licking, peeing, pooping - and thereis definitely more than one gland at work.
They're working the preorbitals on the licking branch, leaving saliva all over it. Then, they're leaving interdigital, anal, and tarsal scents all over the ground.
As far as the poop goes, although I've never specifically read anything on the subject, I'm guessing that deer are leaving scent markers through the anal gland. I know for sure that a lot of canines do this, and it is not very well understood. Animals are more scent and chemically reliant than humans could ever begin to appreciate.
As you watch, it's abundantly clear that they are experiencing a complete olfactory, vomeronasal, nasal, sudoriferous, preorbital and salivary experience. There are multiple chemical cues, scents, hormones and pheromonesat play,I just wish I understood it better.
One thing I've always wondered - regarding breeding: We would all concede that a male whitetail can easily distinguish whether a scrape has, in fact, been visited by a receptive doe. BUT, one thing that I've never really heard anyone discuss (and I think this is fact) - is whether there are chemical cues in the urine/scents/secretions of a NON-RECEPTIVE female that will give the males an outlook into the future to tell how far away she is from coming into estrus - so that they don't have to keep wasting their time coming back until the time is right.
That's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. You have to consider that there were times in history where deer densities were abyssmally low - and it would make sense for these animals to have a built-in system for mapping out when and where does will be ovulating and at what times - so as to not be wandering aimlessly and burning valuable energy.
I've killed a lot of bucks out of scrapes (both natural and man-made)- and have seen them leave scat in the scrapes many times.
Matter of fact, I've got about 10-15 scrapes mapped out in my head right now, that if you went to them, they would certainly be open, active, and probably have some droppings laying around inside the clearing. Conversely, I've seen community-type scrapes go ice-cold overnight. I'd like to blame human contamination, but I think there's more than meets the eye at work.
Scrapes, to me, are the most interesting of all whitetail signposts. If you watch a buck or doe working a scrape over, it's almost as if they're engaging in a complete sensory indulgence - sniffing, licking, peeing, pooping - and thereis definitely more than one gland at work.
They're working the preorbitals on the licking branch, leaving saliva all over it. Then, they're leaving interdigital, anal, and tarsal scents all over the ground.
As far as the poop goes, although I've never specifically read anything on the subject, I'm guessing that deer are leaving scent markers through the anal gland. I know for sure that a lot of canines do this, and it is not very well understood. Animals are more scent and chemically reliant than humans could ever begin to appreciate.
As you watch, it's abundantly clear that they are experiencing a complete olfactory, vomeronasal, nasal, sudoriferous, preorbital and salivary experience. There are multiple chemical cues, scents, hormones and pheromonesat play,I just wish I understood it better.
One thing I've always wondered - regarding breeding: We would all concede that a male whitetail can easily distinguish whether a scrape has, in fact, been visited by a receptive doe. BUT, one thing that I've never really heard anyone discuss (and I think this is fact) - is whether there are chemical cues in the urine/scents/secretions of a NON-RECEPTIVE female that will give the males an outlook into the future to tell how far away she is from coming into estrus - so that they don't have to keep wasting their time coming back until the time is right.
That's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. You have to consider that there were times in history where deer densities were abyssmally low - and it would make sense for these animals to have a built-in system for mapping out when and where does will be ovulating and at what times - so as to not be wandering aimlessly and burning valuable energy.
There is a time, I call the tag along period, like a dog, you have heat and standing heat. I dont know if they plot it down in their brain to come back to a spot where one is not ready to stand for them, but I have seen plenty over the years tagging along waitingfor them tostand for em.
06-23-2008 | 10:36 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,139
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Speaking of scrapes
ORIGINAL: quiksilver
I've killed a lot of bucks out of scrapes (both natural and man-made)- and have seen them leave scat in the scrapes many times.
Matter of fact, I've got about 10-15 scrapes mapped out in my head right now, that if you went to them, they would certainly be open, active, and probably have some droppings laying around inside the clearing. Conversely, I've seen community-type scrapes go ice-cold overnight. I'd like to blame human contamination, but I think there's more than meets the eye at work.
Scrapes, to me, are the most interesting of all whitetail signposts. If you watch a buck or doe working a scrape over, it's almost as if they're engaging in a complete sensory indulgence - sniffing, licking, peeing, pooping - and thereis definitely more than one gland at work.
They're working the preorbitals on the licking branch, leaving saliva all over it. Then, they're leaving interdigital, anal, and tarsal scents all over the ground.
As far as the poop goes, although I've never specifically read anything on the subject, I'm guessing that deer are leaving scent markers through the anal gland. I know for sure that a lot of canines do this, and it is not very well understood. Animals are more scent and chemically reliant than humans could ever begin to appreciate.
As you watch, it's abundantly clear that they are experiencing a complete olfactory, vomeronasal, nasal, sudoriferous, preorbital and salivary experience. There are multiple chemical cues, scents, hormones and pheromonesat play,I just wish I understood it better.
One thing I've always wondered - regarding breeding: We would all concede that a male whitetail can easily distinguish whether a scrape has, in fact, been visited by a receptive doe. BUT, one thing that I've never really heard anyone discuss (and I think this is fact) - is whether there are chemical cues in the urine/scents/secretions of a NON-RECEPTIVE female that will give the males an outlook into the future to tell how far away she is from coming into estrus - so that they don't have to keep wasting their time coming back until the time is right.
That's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. You have to consider that there were times in history where deer densities were abyssmally low - and it would make sense for these animals to have a built-in system for mapping out when and where does will be ovulating and at what times - so as to not be wandering aimlessly and burning valuable energy.
I've killed a lot of bucks out of scrapes (both natural and man-made)- and have seen them leave scat in the scrapes many times.
Matter of fact, I've got about 10-15 scrapes mapped out in my head right now, that if you went to them, they would certainly be open, active, and probably have some droppings laying around inside the clearing. Conversely, I've seen community-type scrapes go ice-cold overnight. I'd like to blame human contamination, but I think there's more than meets the eye at work.
Scrapes, to me, are the most interesting of all whitetail signposts. If you watch a buck or doe working a scrape over, it's almost as if they're engaging in a complete sensory indulgence - sniffing, licking, peeing, pooping - and thereis definitely more than one gland at work.
They're working the preorbitals on the licking branch, leaving saliva all over it. Then, they're leaving interdigital, anal, and tarsal scents all over the ground.
As far as the poop goes, although I've never specifically read anything on the subject, I'm guessing that deer are leaving scent markers through the anal gland. I know for sure that a lot of canines do this, and it is not very well understood. Animals are more scent and chemically reliant than humans could ever begin to appreciate.
As you watch, it's abundantly clear that they are experiencing a complete olfactory, vomeronasal, nasal, sudoriferous, preorbital and salivary experience. There are multiple chemical cues, scents, hormones and pheromonesat play,I just wish I understood it better.
One thing I've always wondered - regarding breeding: We would all concede that a male whitetail can easily distinguish whether a scrape has, in fact, been visited by a receptive doe. BUT, one thing that I've never really heard anyone discuss (and I think this is fact) - is whether there are chemical cues in the urine/scents/secretions of a NON-RECEPTIVE female that will give the males an outlook into the future to tell how far away she is from coming into estrus - so that they don't have to keep wasting their time coming back until the time is right.
That's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. You have to consider that there were times in history where deer densities were abyssmally low - and it would make sense for these animals to have a built-in system for mapping out when and where does will be ovulating and at what times - so as to not be wandering aimlessly and burning valuable energy.
Here is the next question: Can a buck tell if a doe has already been bred? I believe they can because of hormone changes. I can't prove that though.
Another thing you mentioned: a doe visiting a scrape to let the bucks know she is ready. I have never in 33 years of hunting witness this. I have seen does who appear to be on the move searching for a buck but never using a scrape to attract a mate. I've always wondered about that. In the old days it was believed that a buck makes a scrape, a doe pees in it to let them know she is ready , the buck checks the scrape and makes the connection. I'm not so sure thats really how it works.
Something interesting: I helped a friend track a wounded buck one night. It was a yuong buck. He wasn't hurt very bad. His blood trail ( small drops ) led us from one scrape to the next to the next until we determined that he wasn't giong to die and the blood was gone.
06-23-2008 | 11:02 AM
#18
Thread Starter
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 937
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From: Horse Country, VA
RE: Speaking of scrapes
What is the significance of them being worked this early in the season. Is this strictly territorial? Im guessing its so far off of their mating time (rut, pre-rut, etc.) that its a buck near his core area marking territory. I found this scrape a good ways away from any trails, but not far from a keystaging area where I last saw a 3-4 yr buck last year.
I dont find it likely that its a community scrape since the area is dense and not an area where deer travel to and from any sources (bed, food, water)
I dont find it likely that its a community scrape since the area is dense and not an area where deer travel to and from any sources (bed, food, water)
06-23-2008 | 11:10 AM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,139
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From:
RE: Speaking of scrapes
ORIGINAL: Hoyt_Viper
What is the significance of them being worked this early in the season. Is this strictly territorial? Im guessing its so far off of their mating time (rut, pre-rut, etc.) that its a buck near his core area marking territory. I found this scrape a good ways away from any trails, but not far from a keystaging area where I last saw a 3-4 yr buck last year.
I dont find it likely that its a community scrape since the area is dense and not an area where deer travel to and from any sources (bed, food, water)
What is the significance of them being worked this early in the season. Is this strictly territorial? Im guessing its so far off of their mating time (rut, pre-rut, etc.) that its a buck near his core area marking territory. I found this scrape a good ways away from any trails, but not far from a keystaging area where I last saw a 3-4 yr buck last year.
I dont find it likely that its a community scrape since the area is dense and not an area where deer travel to and from any sources (bed, food, water)
I believe they are more like the bulletin board or water cooler at work. A place to leave messages and keep in touch.
Also bucks live in bacholer groups so your scrape is most likely near a prefered bedding area of a group of bucks.
06-23-2008 | 11:17 AM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,716
Likes: 0
RE: Speaking of scrapes
I don't think there's any doubt that bucks know when does are ready to ovulate - which is why they start shadowing them in the chase phase. My point is that I think they know, much earlier. Obviously, this is virtually impossible to prove.
I admit that does tend to visit scrapes very sparingly, butI have a sound theory as to why:I've personally seen does visit and piss down their legs in some of the bigger scrapes over the summer and leading all the way up to the rut, which leads me to believe that there's more communication going on than "Hey, I think I'm ready to breed. Meet me here." I think it goes a step further, almost as if to say "Hi, I'm doe number 43597. I am not barren, and should be ovulating in approximately six weeks. Come back then."
To help explain why bucks check the scrapes so often, but does are rarely seen visiting the scrapes,think ofthe scrapeas a message board: I think the doe only has to visit thescrape siteoccasionallyleave her message behind. Bucks check themwith varying regularityfor new messages from new does. Younger bucks are impatient and inquisitive by their nature, so theylog on constantly.
This would also help explain why scrapes become active so long before the first does are ready to come into estrus.
In addition to breeding, I believe that the males use the chemical keys found inside the scrape as a "guestbook," which tells them who has been there, andwith what regularity. This lends itself to establishing territorial boundaries and eventually leads to a pecking order being established.
In all honesty, I think the bigger, more mature bucksuse the information gleaned fromthese community scrapes tominimize their travel (read: danger exposure)through using chemical keys found within the scrapes by known breeder doesthroughout all parts ofthe season, not just the pre-rut and chase periods. This helps explain why the big boys hardly ever get caught wasting their time/energy "cruising" before it's go-time. They don't have to. They already know when their target breeder does will be ready.
These are animals that are absolutely covered in glands and scent/chemicalreceptors - and live in a world of scent and nonverbal chemical cues. Just from an evolutionary and survival adaptibility perspective, it seems more than reasonable that these basic pieces of information could be passed on in the form of chemical signals where no verbal context exists.
I think each specific animal has its own chemical fingerprint.
I admit that does tend to visit scrapes very sparingly, butI have a sound theory as to why:I've personally seen does visit and piss down their legs in some of the bigger scrapes over the summer and leading all the way up to the rut, which leads me to believe that there's more communication going on than "Hey, I think I'm ready to breed. Meet me here." I think it goes a step further, almost as if to say "Hi, I'm doe number 43597. I am not barren, and should be ovulating in approximately six weeks. Come back then."
To help explain why bucks check the scrapes so often, but does are rarely seen visiting the scrapes,think ofthe scrapeas a message board: I think the doe only has to visit thescrape siteoccasionallyleave her message behind. Bucks check themwith varying regularityfor new messages from new does. Younger bucks are impatient and inquisitive by their nature, so theylog on constantly.
This would also help explain why scrapes become active so long before the first does are ready to come into estrus.
In addition to breeding, I believe that the males use the chemical keys found inside the scrape as a "guestbook," which tells them who has been there, andwith what regularity. This lends itself to establishing territorial boundaries and eventually leads to a pecking order being established.
In all honesty, I think the bigger, more mature bucksuse the information gleaned fromthese community scrapes tominimize their travel (read: danger exposure)through using chemical keys found within the scrapes by known breeder doesthroughout all parts ofthe season, not just the pre-rut and chase periods. This helps explain why the big boys hardly ever get caught wasting their time/energy "cruising" before it's go-time. They don't have to. They already know when their target breeder does will be ready.
These are animals that are absolutely covered in glands and scent/chemicalreceptors - and live in a world of scent and nonverbal chemical cues. Just from an evolutionary and survival adaptibility perspective, it seems more than reasonable that these basic pieces of information could be passed on in the form of chemical signals where no verbal context exists.
I think each specific animal has its own chemical fingerprint.