RE: speed kills?????????
 

I'm jumping in here late but i want to add some thought to this (might have been said),

All of my buddies (aged 16-23) think the "only" way to shoot is to have their bows maxed out at 70+ pounds, and they always rag on me for my 55lb draw. Yet whenever we shoot more than a few rounds of arrows, or, if its on the colder side of things, they have trouble drawing their bow. Now i can pull back their 70lb bows, but i don't like to. Especially if a big buck is coming down the trail my way, i don't want to have to deal with straining to get my bow pulled back.

Ive never had my bow chrono'd and if i did the numbers probably wouldn't be that great, but it kills deer and i limit my shots to 25 yards anyways....so it works for MY setup.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I think that was well said. That is why I am joining me and my son to an archery league in the next week or so. I still may end up with a Matthews next year however, LOL!

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I'm basically a 20 yard bowhunter. If I have two different bows that produce equal accuracy (in my hands) at hunting ranges, but one shoots about 280 fps and the other 315 fps, why shoot slow? ;)

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I agree Magic. I think at 50 pounds youwould be fine when you're in the zone...if the zone is 20 yards....However some situtations can play a role with slower bows....for instance ....alert deer....looking at you upon release....we all know there are times when deer "drop and turn" at the pluck of a string....obviously speed helps with the variation in arrow trajectory on a deer that is in the alert mode when you release....

but then I reflect back to the late 80's....When we tossed heavy 2216 easton aluminums at 31 inches....and we never had a problem......

I guess my final opinion would be......a relaxed deer at 20 yards doesn't know if you're shooting 230 fps or 312....A good subject that has me thinkin......

I guess the bottom line is....find the lungs with a sharp head....and yer home free.....

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Ya I love it when the (speed freaks) tell me and my dad and the group of Traditional hunters I hunt with that were nuts bringing our recurves and longbows out west to the mountains and open country being you can't get any animals closer then 30 to 40 yards. I here the same thing every time from these folks (you can't shoot an arrow at 40 yards with a recurve and expect to be deadly)! I say yep your right and I would never attempt it! The funny thing is these people eat there words 9 times out of 10 when they see us again with our animals. Learn to hunt better if you can and get them close so you don't have to worry about having a 300+fps bow. It can be done believe it or not! I have no choice in the matter being I choose to hunt with a recurve. Speed is nice but its by far not a necessity. Allot of bow hunters don't put the time and patience into bow hunting anymore, lets get a fast enough bow so we can shoot 40+ yards instead.

I'm not one bit what so ever knocking you folks who shoot a very fast bow. Whatever fits your style of hunting I guess is good for you. My recurve shoots about 210fps. It has got the job done.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Alright, this is PAINFUL to read. :D


Here's what I think on the situation. You guys like to jump on one another because you don't agree with them, and that is DEFINATELY not right. Speed is something that is relative. At what point are you guys saying something is slow, or fast? If you can get the speed with your setup, why wouldn't you want it? It doesn't make any sense, if you can get the speed, use it. Speed has advantages, no doubt about it, especially if you can get it and stay at a comfortable poundage. For deer, if you are shooting high poundage, I think the optimal KE setup and all around setup is 400-450gr. That's going to punch through just about anything. Run the numbers, if the happy medium isn't with one of those numbers I'll be surprised. For me, I'll be shooting lower poundage this year, out of a semi speed bow (330fps IBO).

I don't think it's right for the people who are shooting slow arrows, to talk down and passs judgment off on the speed guys. If a guy can shoot high poundage to hunt with (I don't feel comfortable doing so) and want to shoot a speed setup, I think that's great. A 400gr arrow going 300fps or better is going to punch through about anything. (In North America). My setup is based on killing deer, and honestly it doesn't take as much as what some people think. Last year I shot a 360gr arrow at 280fps and blew through a doe at 35yards on the ground. This year the arrow will be a little lighter and faster, and I'll be willing to bet it'll pass through again ;).

RE: speed kills?????????
 

No it isn't right! Is it right just the opposite? I've seen more bow hunters laugh and put down people because they are not shooting the fastest set ups they can. I've seen more of this then people talking down people with speedy bows.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I agree Schultz.


Pretty much...Passing Judgment=BAD [8D]:D

I just said that, because thats the way this thread was heading.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I know where your coming from Matt.;)

RE: speed kills?????????
 

My last hunting bow kicked a 480 grain arrow out at a smoking 170-180 fps. I killed several deer and hogs with it. I had to do two things; Keep the shots close and aim low.

I'm getting 244 fps out of my bowtech. I still aim at the deer's heart. The difference is; I usually hit them there. I also don't need a pin for 10 yards,another one for 15 yards and one for20 yards. :)

RE: speed kills?????????
 

To answer the original question, never would having a faster bow have made a difference for me.

In thinking about that, how many times in anyones bowhutning career have you had an experiece that left you saying, "If only I had been shooting 30fps slower I would have had the animal."

RE: speed kills?????????
 

How about when you're trying to slide an arrow right over the top of a log or boulder that's covering right up to the point you want to aim at on the animal, but the arrow kisses it instead and glances off into never-never land. 30 fps slower would have arched right over the obstruction and nailed the animal instead.

In the olden days (mid-80's are olden days?? LOL) we used to set up several shots in our 3D shoots specifically to make shooters deal with obstructions and practice such scenarios. Now everyone seems to want manicured shooting lanes between the stakes and the targets because their little rocket launcher bows must have a straight shot at the kill.

They've taken the 'arch' out of archery, so now I guess we have to call it 'flattery.' [8D]

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Arthur,

I don't know man. Personally, I think I'm going for that half step forward or sidewaysto clear the obstruction in front of me. I do not like guess work. I want to see the animal's vitals 100% or I'm not shooting. It goes hand in hand with "know your backstop". Who's to say a fawn isn't standing right in front of its mother. You'll never know until it's too late if you encourage shots like that. Flattery suits me fine.

Schultzy,

I totally respect your hunting stlye and your opinion. I am sure, like me, you wish you had $10 for everytime someone told you "you can't".More than likely, you would have a ton of dough in your hands! Can I ask you a question though? Why do you shoot a 73# bow and not a 35# bow? If nothing seems to matter, then both should be equally effective on wildlife.

The point I'm trying to make is simply this: (we are beating a dead horse) 1) Each of us has an obligation to do our very best while in the feild. 2) Each of us has an obligation to use that equipmentwhich is most suited for item #1. 3) Each of must must practice to become proficient with Item #2 so that we can fulfill item #1. 4) If we take Items 1, 2, and 3 seriously, then our freezers tend to stay full. 5) There's a lot that goes into Items 1, 2, and 3. Much of which will have an individual basis the rest of us cannot control.

Find your own solutions, have fun, and let us hear the stories andsee the pictures!

RE: speed kills?????????
 

More speed would not have increased or decreased my sucess rate one bit.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

You're right--there's no comparison for these examples.But all through the history of mankind,every game animal on this planet has been taken with recurves,longbows,& primitive self bows that shoot well under 200fps.Speed kills?No,skill kills

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Actually Jim,

Speed kills, skill kills, projectiles kill,knives kill, bats kill, poisons kill, courage kills, broadheads kill, feild tips kill, and the list goes on and on...

Some thingsare still components of the other...

Are you telling me you're willing to shoot an elephant with a ten pound recurve and arrows tipped with rubber suction cups? I'm sure you have the skill to do it. But do you have the courage to get close enough to pull off this incrediablefeat?

RE: speed kills?????????
 

If the question is: "Is speed an advantage"

The answer is undoubtedly yes. Whether you shoot 200 fps or 300fps. More speed is a plus as long as you can shoot your setup just as good.

Shoot what you want! Just because you could kill a Whitetail with a .22 Don't tell somebody a 30.06 is no advantage.;)

Like I said before, I don't set my bows up on full race like I used to, but I do know controlled speed is an advantage. Flatter trajectory, and more KE for less than an ideal shot. I am sure none of us has never made less than an ideal shot[8D]

Dan

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Now that example is a little far-fetched,dontcha' think? If I was inclined to hunt elephant,I'd use an appropriate weapon--whether it's an 85# recurve(or whatever)or a .500 nitro.
A 50yd shot is a 50yd regardless if your bow shoots 220fps or 320fps.If you're sighted in at 50yds,speed makes no differance at all,you should make the shot.If you rely on speed as a crutch because of range estimation--get closer

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Yeah it matters. I had this exact scenario occur. I thought the deer was 24-27yds.....and he ended up being 33yds. He's dead. Speed was a contributor.

But I've had a BIG, HUGE change of heart.....as far as bow speed is concerned.......

That's the way I want to be, as well. In my future hunting of deer......the speed of my bow will become less and less important.

Good posts in here, Rybo.;)

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Flatter trajectory is a definitive advantage - beyond a shadow of a doubt.

However, a brutal draw cycle or a bow that you can't hold back is a definitive disadvantage.

Now... If somebody was to create a system that gave you the speed, without compromising draw cycle - now THAT would be the cat's meow. ;) Just saying.


...and I think somebody mentioned that a flat trajectory shouldn't be used as a crutch for people who can't judge distance . . . suggesting that "practice" is in order. Well, it should be noted that some people just CAN'T judge yardage. Specifically, anyone (like myself) who is one-eye-dominant, is practically robbed of any ability to perceive depth, because we can't triangulate in on the target due to poor vision in the subdominant eye.These problems are more common than a lot of us realize.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Answer this one honestly. 2 bows are on the rack, both have the features you are looking for, priced the same, good draw cycles. One is shooting 290 fps, the other 210. Who is buying the slower bow?

I'm not a speed freak, but there are times when its better to have a Corvette than a Chevette.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Trust me, there's still plenty of arch in archery. Arrows moving at 280fps still drop, quiet a bit.

Here's a number for you, you are shooting 280fps at a 3D target. We'll just say the Mckenzie Large Alert Deer. The target is at 40yds. In order to hit a 12 ring (ASA Scoring) you have to shoot it for somewhere between 39.1-41.7 yards I believe. Someone with Archers Advantage can tell me the exact numbers. That's still pretty precise. Once I get to work, I can spit out more numbers, for hunting situations and ranges.

Like Jeff said, he's bringing his hunting closer, if you are shooting 25yds and under, no matter what, speed isn't as much of an issue.

The comment was made, that you need to practice more at judging yardage. I would be willing to bet that I practice judging yardage more than anyone else on the forums, or atleast pretty darn close. In fact, I've already done so this morning. I'll go judge yardage EVERY morning and then shoot in the afternoons. Now, it's not my hunting setup, but it still counts.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I think that I will buy the slower one so that people in the forum are nice to me and think I am "Hardcore" because I can judge distances down to the inch and will never take a shot beyond 20 yards. I will limit my ethical hunting abilities so that I can hunt for everone in the forum instead of myself, that way when I post people will answer my post with "RESPECT". Then I will know that I have arrived.[8D][8D]

RE: speed kills?????????
 

^^^^ That is some funny stuff there. It was all I could do, to not bust out loud here at work.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Not now Chief, I'm in the Zone!! Hahahaha

RE: speed kills?????????
 

iamyourhuckleberry, if it was a matter of a half step, you're right. I'm talking about where a half step, or even five full steps, wouldn't be any help. Not that being able to take that half step sideways is an option for the vast majority of bowhunters anyway, because they're in a treestand!!

If not being able to see below the heart area or the bottom body line will keep you from shooting, then you won't shoot a deer in tall grass either, right? Faced with the situation I described - which is only an example of how having a bow 30 fps slower 'could' be an advantage, per mez's comment - a lot of hunters will say to themselves, "I can clear it" and they will take the shot. Just wanted to be clear on that.

---------------

Personally, I've always had more problems with windage than elevation. Somehow a tree right up against the kill zone seems to suck my arrows right into it.[:@] But then, even though I was a very good shooter in competition and could shoot accurately well in excess of 60 yards, I flatly refuse to take a bowhunting shot in excess of 30 yards. Beyond 30, that's firearms territory as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, within 30 yards, I've found the difference in trajectory between a 250 fps bow and a 300 fps bow to be practically nil. The difference between a 210 fps bow and a 250 fps bow though, that's substantial. Of course, that's with what I consider hunting weight arrows, in excess of 400 grains.

Another thing I must say, in interest of full disclosure;), is that all the experience I've had with sights and compounds has been on the field archery or 3D range. I tried sights on a bow for hunting ONCE, long ago, and it was such a bad experience that I never used sights on a hunting bow again. It was the only animal I ever hit and didn't recover. But the reason I bring this up is it seems super flat trajectory seems to be a lot more of an excessive/compulsive mindset for sights shooters than for barebow shooters.

Nearly to a man, the people who want speed say it makes yardage estimation less critical for longer range shots. We all, even traditional class, used to shoot 3D's out to 80 yards with our old slow bows in the 80's. One would think, logically, that having bows that are dedicated long range shooters that the distances would have increased and we'd be shooting out to 100 yards now. Odd isn't it that shot distances in the big 3D organizations have steadily gotten SHORTER as speeds have increased? Only the open, semi-pro and pro classes shoot beyond 40 yards now. Clearly, going over and beyond on speed isn't as great as many folks believe it to be.

Besides, on longer range shots there should be no estimation. If you're going to take long shots, then don't be a lazy cheapskate. BUY AND USE A GOOD RANGEFINDER!

And it never hurts to get out and shoot more. If you don't have anywhere to shoot but your zero lot line backyard and there's an archery club in your neck of the woods, join it and go to the range a few times in the so-called 'off season.' No matter how fast the bow can shoot, it's only as good as the guy holding it.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I think unlimited might shoot past 40yds too.

You still have to judge yardage well to score well. This is the first I've heard of having 80yd max on 3D ranges. :D[8D]

That would be BRUTAL! lol

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Open and unlimited are the same thing, just IBO vs ASA.

You should've been around in the days before IBO changed the world. It was a lot of fun.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

I'd say it was a lot of fun.


Unlimited is an ASA class, and isn't it MBR in IBO. I'm not very familiar with IBO.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

No, different classes. MBO is Male Bowhunter Open - scopes, 3' stabilizers and stuff. MBR is similar but you must use fixed pins instead of a scope. But you're right about one thing. MBR shoots from the green stake at 45 max. Going through the rules, I see that so do the Seniors classes. (I don't care who ya are, that's funny right there. Youngsters can't hang in with the old farts and mature ladies. [8D]) Crossbows also shoot from the green stake.

I can't keep up with IBO's freakin' rules changes now that I don't compete any more.[&:]

RE: speed kills?????????
 

ASA Unlimited is Pins, Long Stabilizer, everything. It's just open but you shoot pins, and I think the max is 45yds.

RE: speed kills?????????
 

Well, there ya go. Unlimited must be the same as MBR. Thought they let scopes in unlimited. (How can it be unlimited if it's limited to pins?) I know about as much about ASA's current rules as I do IBO's it seems.[&:]