Scrapes. Why?
 

Why would a buck work a scrape....and NOT urinate in it?

Is he not ready to mate (sounds unlikely)?

Trying to assert some sort of dominance issue by removing another buck's scent?

Other?

I've seen several work scrapes.....and even seen (what HAD to be "subordinate" bucks do so in the presence of a more dominant animal) multiple bucks use the exact same scrape in the presence of others.

Why would they work every other aspect of the scrape (licking branch......pawing of ground..) and NOT piss in it?

Thanks.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

IMO a buck might work a scrape and not piss in it so he could go undetected.....kinda like a jake keeping quiet so he don't get thumped by a Tom, but still coming intoa hencall......he just can't help it sometimes......


Community scrapes.........Must not have been during peak rut time, or the dominate buck was not the one you thought it was.

So they don't get thumped imo.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Probably because there might not be the competition and not the right time of year. In most cases I'm sure there pissing in it, they are just not doing it when you see them. Depends on the age too I think.

I've seen many 1.5 year old bucks in late October to early November with dry hocks. They are horny but they are not sure why and I'm not so sure If they know what to do anyway when they get this way. Some do it and some don't when it comes to 1.5's I think.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

I got some good pics of 2 different bucks and a couple does working a licking branch yesterday. Haven't seen a scrape therethough. Might have to try a mock there and see if anything happens.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

You're likely right ont he first assertion.....but I've always felt that the "dominant" buck was sort of (at any given time) a result of who was actually present. I could be wrong, for sure. What I mean is......as long as THE dominant buck for an area isn't around.....whoever's present is gonna assume that role.

I'm not saying the two I witnessed work the scrape (in the presence of the older buck) would have done so in the presence of THE dominant buck for the area (I don't believe they would have).....but if my theory is correct.....it would seem "odd", to me, that they'd chance it even then (in the presence of the older buck).

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

He may have already pissed in 5-6 scrapes prior and cant anymore... lol jk..

I think earlier in the season, it is more or less just a territory marker, then when things start heating up they start getting more aggresive and pissing in them.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Maybe the same reason we don't always have sex in the same place. Maybe just like us, pissing outside sometimes and not in the toilet. jmho

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Possible Jeff, but I am not sure if there is a pecking order as you are describing. Makes sense if an esterous doe is around, but I am not sure if itholds true ant any given time.......

Heck, look at Bachelor groups......dominance is not really even obvisous when they are running together in the summer.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Gus you may be right.....with the pecking order not even making a difference if the does aren't ready. I just kinda thought if they were already making scrapes (and out of bachelor groups)....that they might be prone to dominance issues. I honestly have no idea, though. I have no idea if dominance is only affected by a true, "hot" doe's presence.....but it's interesting, now, to think back to times when I've seen multiple bucks in an area......when they WERE out of bachelor groups. Though my experience with that is limited ot a few times.....I can tell ya the bucks were "antsy" of each other's presence....and in one instance sparring with multiple "opponents".

Just trying to learn more of why they do what they do.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Urinating on the ground is just part of the scent puzzle at a scrape. Bucks work overhanging branches at all times of the year. I would say it's timing, mood of the buck, etc. I'm not even sure the ground is the most important part of a scrape. A lot of animals will urinate in a scrape, Coyote, Fox, Man[8D]etc.

Dan

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

I don't know if this really has anything to do with what you're asking, but from what I've read, a dominant buck usually makes his scrapes in rather out of the way/obscure area's. In essence, where the lesser bucks wouldn't be traveling.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

OK, I'm not real bright but I thought deer had a gland in the hoof that emits some kind of scent. No?

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Now.. I am no expert on the subject of scrapes and I believe that little is also known of their exact importances to a specific animal or the entire herd.

However.. Their are several factors to examine first Jeff. Timing of the year.. location of the scrape are two of the biggest.

But I will say.. only specific scrapes are made by a specific animal. The other 98% are made and kept by many. Most of all with larger community scrapes.

The question of urinating on the scrape may simply be.. because their was no need for the buck to refreshen the scrape. A buck is territorial by nature.. and must constantly freshen and re-freshen his territorial boundaries (so to speak). It is my estimation based on the little evidence you brought forth that the buck had no need to re-freshen that particular scrape.

So much attention is given to the whitetail by researchers.. but very little is known of the communication that exists between them through an individuals odor.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Jeff once I get that book to you it has greg millers personal opinion on this very subject.
It might surprise you that is for sure.


T

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Actually, most of the scrapers I have found have never been peed in from what I could tell. No wet spot or strong odor to them. I think there are different types of scrapes. Territory markers and breeding scrapes, with most being territory markers.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

I've found pee in them (really fresh.....still kinda "puddled").....just never seen one actually do it (and the one I found pee in is the same one I watched the 4 separate bucks work the same morning).

I don't know what to think about 'em.....lol[&:]

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Because they are all out of piss??? LMAO I don't know.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

I think you should apply for millions in government grants to study this mystery.We have to get to the bottom of this.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Maybe he just doesnt have to pee??[8D]

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Because they simply dont need to. I believe the most potent smell a deer leaves in a scrape is from the orbital gland (located on forehead) that makes contact with the licking branch (usually the first thing a deer inspects at a scrape site). Its also possible that the smell from the metatarsals have saturated the inside glands between the hooves and been worked into the dirt, thus having the same affect as physically urinited in the scrape...

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Good point, bucks tend some scapes year round. They may not be aggressively pawing the ground and urinating in itbut they do a lot of scent marking through the glands around their eyes/foreheads(orbital glands) on overhanging branches. J. Ozaga wrote an article called Springtime Signposts which included research on year round buck scraping activity and it was very interesting. They actually made "ideal" scraping areas after the season and during the spring by manipulating branches near travel areas and had something like 60% activity once the season rolled around and these were completely man manipulated scrape areas. I can't find the link but if anyonecan it was a pretty cool read.

I'm doing some expeimenting of my own right now with the same theory.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

You're making hunting much more difficult than it should be. Might be, he has nothing left to give. Might be he's afraid of the dark. Might be, he's read this thread. Just go hunting. Animals do things normal... normally... but not always. Your task is to just go kill something. [8D]

You appear to have seen an awful lot of bucks working scrapes... and at the same time ... in the short time you've been hunting. It's not rocket science and critters are like people or dogs, sometimes you feel like it and sometimes you don't.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

They will do that all year round, Id advise going against a mock scrape right now, deer know when its time to make scrpaes. But I wont stop ya and Id like to know the results.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

I've seen early season scrapes that get payed real close attention to by other deer....
I've made some fake ones just by kicking dirt around and if any deer just happens to notice it, they'll stick their nose in it.
Once the pissing begins, the scrape will get noticeably wider if the deer is still using it.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

Yeah David....I know you're right. I just love to hear why people think they're doing what they do. To ME....I think they're so random....they're unpredictable. I don't hunt scrapes, anymore.....but I have been fortunate enough to see some worked that I didn't even know were there. That's what usually happens when I'm hunting and see them.

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

How do you know he didn't piss into it? They usually piss all over their leg so it runs down over their tarsal glands, you might not notice this from your vantage point. It's not usually a stream like us!

RE: Scrapes. Why?
 

I suppose you "might be right.....but I was 9 yds from the one I saw the 4 work, that morning....and I think I'd have seen it (could be wrong).

I've also been fortunate enough to witness a doe peeing on her tarsals.....and a "stream" it was. It was the goofiest thing I've seen a deer do, in person. She was at it for quite a while.