Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

What is your criteria for determining a mature doe in your area?

The answer "may" not be as easy as you'd think.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Droopyor even sagging breasts.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Bawanajim, your too much, and you beat me to my thought...
How about the double chin or in my case the triple chin?
The Doe probably doesn't put out much, unless it's your birthday or something, and you have to keep on reminding them that it's not just for peeing! Opps!

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I like that!


When I see a family group of does and fawns, it usually consists of two adults and 3-4 fawns. Usually one of the adults is much larger, she is the matriarch. If you see multiple doe units in a field feeding in close proximity, the most senior ranking doe will be treated with the most respect by the other deer. They are mostly related to each other, all of them.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Around here they get that John Kerry look with a real long face. And they defiantly rule the herd.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I see doe groups as large as TWELVE.

Just like in bucks.....the largest one isn't always the dominant one......NOR is she necessarily (and in the case of the area I hunt....predominantly) the oldest;)

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

MOST of the time they are ...... they are bigger because they eat first ....at least that's what I read ;)

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Ok More importantly and sorry if this hijacks this baby...

Why do I care (honestly, not being slanderous) I'm not a doe hunter and if I was I wouldn't shoot the oldest one. Cuz I'd prefer young and tender.

So as a person who is targeting "better" bucks what am I missing by not age structuring the does I see?

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

The chance for a buck to take her place residing on your land.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

So She will run off attempts at breeding? I would think if she is so dominant and this statusgives her some magic woods wisdom she woud attract or seek out the best mate?

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

It's easy,she's the one that sees you first.:)Or the one with anose like a anteater.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

if i am tring to shoot a doe, i will shoot the biggest one in the group, i dont get too caught up in the age of does that i shoot

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I have seen just the opposite, the youngest deer appear first, followed by the doe that I assuming owns the fawn, then her sisters and then the parent of the two sisters with small bucks - I think the matriach is either A- by herselfor B. Is typically the last doe I see before I start seeing bucks - this has happened several times on the farmland of estern NC - A she is still Much larger than the others in the group- with a darker coat as well - typically younger deer sport a reddish brown coat - the old nannies have a greyish brown apperance

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I'll catch a lot of crap for this...but I'm used to it.

I know there are those who don't target mature does. Fine. But I'm targeting (as a management goal)any and all does that provide ethical shots. One thing I was gonna do this year to spice things up.....is target big, mature does, only (unless I'm hunting with trad gear). I've had encounters with them in the past......and come out on the short end WAY more times than with their same age structure male counterparts.;)

I have killed a couple decent bucks.....but only one doe that I would say was "mature".

I give them their due. I'm looking forward to the challenge.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I've had numerous conversation with Chris Kreh (Wildlife Bio. NCWRC) and he tells me the largest does I'm seeing (typically) are 2.5yr olds. In heavily populated areas (with limited nutritional avenues) this is the case (again....typically). The older does are not (even "typically")the largest does.

Don't have a clue how it is where YOU hunt.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

There also should be a listing in the P/Y club for the oldest doe.:eek:

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I don't actually target the most mature doe so to speak. If I decide I'm gonna whack a doe, the first good shot I get is in trouble. BUT, if a group of let's just say 5 does were to walk by, I will shoot the lead doe if given the opportunity. If not, any of the 5 is fine with me......Dead doe is a dead doe, better than no dead doe. Sure, if we're micro managing our herd, some does are more favorable to kill than others......

But like I said.....a dead doe is better than no dead doe. I will, however, pass the doe fawns. Every time.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

- that is my plan every year - I understand your strategy very well, I have taken few matriachs over the years and it represents like you stated a challange - a 3 year old doe is as smart as or smarter that bucks of the same age structure - and the feeling when you take one of them out is very rewarding

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

You oughta know, Frank. The one you took here was a beauty.;) She was a whopper forthese woods.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

mobow.....don't misunderstand...."we" ;)are gonna have strict guidelines if you're hunting in the land around where I live. "Brown (and female) is down".:)

I'd like for my friends to kill a lot of them this year. I'd like to watch more than I shoot.

For my purposes.....I'm gonna try for a big ol gal.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

One advantage to shooting the big Does is...
You may not make the mistake by taking a button buck by accident, that could grow into thay P&Y your looking for in the years to come???!!!
If 3 deer come within shooting range and you take the big one, the likely hood is that you killed the mother Doe.
If you shoot one of the smaller ones, and then notice balls when you dressing it, you immediately go to the head looking for nubbies - OPPS!
Shooting the larger one hopefully avoids this.
When in Texas we needed to cull 140 Does for the ranch and these were our instructions to avoid shooting a potential buck.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Yeah, Jeff the whole experience was appreciated she was my(our) trophy for 07 and will stay in my avatar for the year - thanks again

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I'd caution people on this strategy......and plead that everyone carry binos afield to thwart this occurring.

Rob/PA was here in '06 hunting and I had this EXACT scenario occur. I had mama and 2 fawns come right under me. I reached for the bow.....started to draw. I put it back on the hook. The largest deer was the one I had a clear shot at (they walked literally right under me....and no chance to draw). I focused on the larger one as the other two fed away.

The larger one WAS the BB;)

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I'm up for the task this year my friend. I should have no issues coming down in Sept sometime for some nanny whacking. ;)

In my area, the larger does are usually the matriarch, fawns (doe or button) are not even close to the mature does. Big does elongate both body and nose here, I consider them cadillac does.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Now where in the world did you hear that;)

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I must say ive always had a problem when i see a doe, I dont know if i get excited or what, but She always loses about 100lbs, when i retrieve her[&:]

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

My dad messed up a few years back, he shot what we thought was a HUGE doe, we went out to look at it and realize it was a buck with both of his antlers snapped off just above the bases.

He had HUGE bases- and one of the biggest bodies I've seen on a deer that we have killed...would of loved to have seen him with his rack and also would have love to seen HOW he snapped the antlers off.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

This is pretty much how i see it in my area as well. I dont know why but every place i hunted this year was covered with BB fawns hardly any doe fawns.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

All does seek out the best mate regardless of dominance status. By killing her off you alow her buck fawn to remain in her core area.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Greg, question... could this be the case also, we lost a staggering amout of bucks in my area this last summer due the EHD, i seen only three racked bucks my whole season . As said, i seen a TON of BB fawns with mother and sisters. are they still hanging around from the lack of bucks with dominance??? it would blow your mind how many of these i seen in a bunch of areas. OR is this mother natures way of replacing what we lost??:eek:

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I READ ARTICLE LAST YEAR THAT REPORTED YOUNGER DOES ARE THE OPPOSITE OF YOUNGER BUCKS...YOUNGER DOES GIVE BETTER GENES AND OLDER BUCKS GIVE BETTER GENES.
I'LL TRY AND FIND THE ARTICLE. IT ALSO TALKED ABOUT REPRODUCTION RATES OF YOUNG VS OLDER AND FOUND YOUNGER DOES HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF REPRODUCING.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

If you are talking about seeing them right now or lately, I believe it is because the mothers haven't dispersed them yet. I have tons of cam pics and videos showing both fawns still with their mothers. In another month or so when the does near birthing, the buck fawns will be dispersed. You'll see groups of bucks (last years fawns) start banding up (new bachelor groups) and roaming around. They are bewildered and have to find a place where they are accepted or at least not harrassed too badly.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

There the ones with bluish white hair and lot's of mascara! But seriously,if you have ample time to watch a group of doe's it is relatively easy to determine who the matriarch is.She feeds where she wants,no other doe will challenge or intrude on the spot she is feeding,no other doe will aggressively posture toward her,the sub dominant doe's will yield to her.Those things in conjunction with her physical characteristics should provide enough information.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I understand that aspect..but thats true of any doe..age or herd status doesn't chnage that.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I answered all of your questions. I must not understand what you are getting at. Maybe you lost me with that talk of magic woods wisdom.....

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Nah nevermind I think I have my answer, and you're right maybe there is no magic woods wisdom to be found ;)

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

In all actuality, for the good of your deer herd, you should not be targeting the matriarch. You should be after the inferior does, the older, beyond maturity does and the fawns.

Speaking from MN, the fawns and the very old does beyond dominantare the least likely to survive the winter whether from harsh conditions or predators, they also are the least likely to throw good fawns (the fawns havent proven anything and older deer may just be too old). By taking these deer out with your bow, you are ensuring a little more food for the rest of the heard. By targeting the matriarch, you are going against nature and the idea of survival of the fittest, she has stood the test of time, she has proven to be the strongest doe, with theoretically the best genes and therefore throws the healthiest fawns. She is also the least likely to allow an inferior buck to breed her. Simply put, she is the one ensuring the best deer are in your area.

I tend to target the non nubbin fawns, might not be as much meat but it sure is the best!

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

I don't put much effort into it. If she's big I'll shoot her. Ifshe's long faced I'll shoot her.

But then agian, if she's a doe, I'll most likely shoot her :D

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

That is about the extent of it. Most of the does I shoot are 1 1/2. Great eating and not too small. Especially in Wis. Where we have EAB, I try to shoot the first doe I can. I give it the first two weekends, after that I wait until after gun season (or during) to try for a doe or two. Then you really have to take what you can get. I hunt does when it will be the least disruptive of my buck hunting.

RE: Mature - Matriarch does....how to discern?
 

Sometimes, you just know...