The Heavier the Better??
 

SInce i sparked a high-jack ill start my own.

3-D
Im going for aLIGHT 3-D setup, im going to be pushing in the 325ish, range. Is heavier more accurate? More forgiving? I wanted a light arrow for the theory of "forgiving" in the sense of yardage. Is that good reasoning?

Hunting
And for hunting sitiuations, is heavier better? Moreforgiving?Hit them harder?, I really wouldnt have to worry about my yardage, i got the rangefinder. Would a heavy arrow be good for me?

Im trying to learn here. What would i gain/lose in each given situation.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

My reasoning for going lighter is so I have a flatter trajectory. I do some open ground spot and stalk every year and I find that they often get closer or farther away between when I range them and when I am ready to release an arrow at them. With the lighter arrows and thus increased speed I have one pin out to 30 yards. I find it to be an enormous advantage to not need a range finder inside 30 yards whether that be for whitetails or whatever. My draw length is also only 27". If it were 30" I could have the best of both worlds, but I am a short guy so in order to accomplish what I want I have to have a lighter arrow.

If I were having any issues with penetration I would sacrifice speed, but my current set up shoots 63 ft-lbs of KE which is enough to blow through a quarting elk and stick in a tree on the other side. I simply don't need any better penetration.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

THose are my same thoughts. With only 27.5"DL myself we have the same brainwaves on arrows. The lighter the flatter, and i like that.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

I subscribe to the notion that a deer hunting arrow should be heavy and the heavier the better. I hunted this past season with a 533gr arrow w/17%FOC and am looking to make a 610gr w/17.5%FOC arrow for next season. My maximum yardage is 25yds. Certainly other folks have longer yardage considerations and weight may play a factor but at my hunting yardage weight is not an issue. The heavy arrow with a four feather fletch should give me maximum "forgiveness" in most deer hunting situations so that if I don't have perfect weather and make the perfect shot the percentages will still be with me.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

I don't target shoot at all though. If fatter/heavier helps scores, well that just doesn't apply to me. I think it is a great sport, I just don't do it. I am not an archer. I am a bowhunter.

EDIT: my hunting arrows really aren't what I would call light. They weigh 382 grains.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

I shoot 60# bows and my hunting arrows range from 330 grains right up to 500 grains. One thing each of my arrows (regardless of weight) has in common is adequate FOC. I like a minimum of 12% with broadheads, but 15% and above is even better. I think the high FOC improves groups as well as penetration.

Dan

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Well i got some fat arrows but they are Ultra Lights, with my Fat arrows there only going to be pushing apx. 325grn.

My hunting arrows are skinnier but thicker-walled and heavier.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Bruce, the FMJ's I built for my trip to NE in Dec. weighed 504 grains and the FOC was over 20%. I knew I would be hunting in the canyons and range would be more limited than in Oct. when they are more out in the open. They performed Great!!

Dan

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Lighter is "better" in 3D.....in that you can shoot a flatter trajectory. Flatter trajectory means you can be off in your yardage guesstimate (this is all relative to something heavier) and still maybe get the scoring ring you're after. That's the premise, anyways. Huntingson described why he likes it for a hunting situation.

Me....I like Bruce's explanation on why he shoots a heavy hunting arrow. I concur. With my effective range probably being even shorter than his. "Flatter trajectory" and hunting arrow don't belong in the same sentence for MY hunting situations. Non issue. I'll take the extra wallop a heavier arrow delivers....and my bow can push it.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

I bet they did. Sounds like an excellent arrow ;).

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

I think im better off going light all the way around for the fact of the range and field edges i hunt. Im honestly not scared tomake a longshot, as long as i know the exact yardage and conditions are perfect.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Dan, can you please describe how you got the FMJs to that weight with that FOC? I am currently shooting ACCs, but have considered switching to FMJs and would like to have flexibility in building them.

Thanks

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

For 3D the rules are simple: Shoot the fastest arrow that you can shoot without compromising accuracy, or in the case of speed restricted shoots (such as ASA) shoot the most forgiving bow / set upthat will get you the speed you need (Generally 280fps + 3%).

For Hunting, I tend to usually fall somewhere in between the 2. I like a hunting arrow in the 290fps range regardless of what bow I am shooting or what draw weight. I will tailor the arrow to fit the bow and give me something in the mid 290's. That's my comfort zone and find that generally means a more midweight arrow that gives me a quieter shot than a more extreme 3D set-up would but still a nice flat trajectory to reasonable hunting distances.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

I would suspect he used 100gr brass inserts.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

My 3-d arrows are going to be around 325ish
My hunting arrows currently weight 375.

Ill be shooting the Ally this year at [email protected]"

Do I need to mend anything to this projected setup??

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

The FMJ's I built have wraps and 3" feathers on the back. The front is tipped with a 125 grain Slick Trick Mag screwed into a brass HIT insert. I also use the BAR although they only weigh 3 grains. On my ACC's I use the PDP inserts with screw in weights to get my FOC where I want it. I tell you those FMJ's pack a punch!! I wander how much KE they wouldhave coming out of my Airborne 82?? I find it funny most guys either like light or heavy arrows. I myself will float back and forth depending on Game and the type of area I am hunting. no different than using a different bullet depending on what you were going after;)

Dan

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Agreed. I use a much lighter arrow with a smaller FOC on rabbits, squirrels, etc. The only "big game" I hunt is whitetail deer although I would like to go bear and elkhunting someday. I'll figure that arrow out when/if the time comes though LOL ;):D.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Thanks Dan! I didn't realize there were brass HIT inserts. I've been tailoring my ACC weights with weight tubes and add in weights for the inserts, but knew that the weight tubes wouldn't be necessary for the FMJs, but worried about FOC with the HIT inserts. You've made me a very happy man. Now I can get the FMJs with Eastons Tracer nocks which I've been dying to try and use brass HIT inserts to customize my FOC. The money is as good as spent.

My wife may want to have a word with you now.;)

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Man, you guys know a lot more about this stuff than I do!

Bruce and GMMAT, you two are making a lot of sense and I think if my situation were the same as yours I would be doing the same thing. This discussion is making me wish I could have 2 set-ups. One for treestand hunting whitetails, and one for when I am going spot & stalk. I know that I could do that, but I think in all reality I am just too lazy and stubborn[&:]

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

A fast arrow is more forgiving of misjudged yardage, but only by a couple yards. But there is a trade off, and the shooter needs to decide if it's worth it or not. Speed is less forgiving, FACT. Gospel. The faster your arrow is flying, the more critical it is of form flaws and such....Everything is amplified. So, what you're gaining in trajectory, you could very well be losing in overall forgivness. Personal decision.

I've explained in the other thread why I'm going heavy/slower this year, no need to rehash it. The differences really are astonishing, it's not the advantage you would THINK it is.

Case in point......My light/fast arrow for hunting, I leave my pin set at 25 yards. 1" high at 20 yards, 1" low at 30. Now, with a slower/heavy arrow..... 1 1/2" high and low, respectively. Whoopidie doo.......What's an inch and a half on a deer??? Nothing. Nodda. Aim for the middle and nock 'em over with heavy....And my bow is much quieter, and.....I can be more pinpoint accurate.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Since Kinetic Energy is determined by the formulaMass x Velocity = Force or kinetic energy what is the difference? I mean I understand shooting fast, light arrows for 3D but those same arrows produce almost = amounts of KEwhen compared toheavyier, slower arrows. Now consider the fact that it takes about 25-30 of kinetic energy to pass through a whitetail, unless you are dicussing hunting heavieranimals with thicker skins and bigger bones or you are a child/women or in some other way limited in your draw weight kinetic energy is important only if you are worried about how far your arrow sticks in the dirt after it passes through the deer you shot.;)

For example some numbers::
330 grains at 310 fps=70.44 ft lbs. of ke
450 grains at 270 fps = 72.86 ft lbs. of ke

I'm not seeing the difference as being very significant, both are close and well above what you would need to kill a whitetail.

Here is a KE calculator from Easton:
Bowhunting Info Kinetic Energy Calculator

And another with an article I found interesting:
Arrow Penetration - much ado about nothing?

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

You, are NOT allowed to have an opinion here.;)

I'm a big fan of mid-heavy arrows for all of the afore mentioned reasons. Personally, I shoot my same 410gr. Easton Axis for 3D as I do for killing stuff and still been very competitive. It's all about what YOU want to do and not anybody else.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

For the record, I do like a fast shooting bow but I also believe the "forgiveness" I get out of it doesn't amount to much as far as if I misjudged the distance(rangefinder eliminates this). Also bows I have set up in the past for speed/flat shooting were definitely on the louder side so I guess that is another disadvantage.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

That has been my experience as well mobow. I live and hunt out west and I'll shoot at 40 yards but don't think the heavy arrows handicap me at that distance. In the past I used a different set up for antelope, if you have ever shot one they are like hitting a piece of tissue paper. I went with light, small diameter carbons and expandable heads. When I was sighting in I found that I really didn't need to move my sight. Shooting at a 4 inch spot both the heavy and light arrows were in the spot. The difference was only a couple of inches. I've since went back to my heavier arrows for all hunting. I shoot around 485 grains. If my yardage is off by 10 yards either way I'll still be in the kill zone.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Hm, ok.....well, here are some real world numbers for you.....This is from my set up, nothing changed except the arrow. Draw weight and length remained static....

355 grain arrow flying 318 = 79.7 ft pounds

490 grain arrow flying 282 = 84.8 ft pounds

That's over 5 pounds, which is a significant increase. That's almost an 11% gain in KE. Does that matter a whole lot in THIS case? No, not really.Not when figuring KE alone, but all the other benefits make it worth it.

A 10% gain in KE on a lighter set up though, say a youth bow, is significant, and could make a tremendous difference.

And dubbya, that's not opinion brotha....that's GOSPEL! :D :D

I still have nothing against light/fast by the way. It's just not for me anymore is all......I'm married, I'm allowed to change my mind.....You'll see soon enough if you keep up the way you are....:eek::D

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Am I understanding this correctly? You have a 40 yard shot and you guess it 30 or 50 yards and you are still in the Kill zone?[&:]

Dan

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Here's some numbers from my Guardian Same Draw weight and length. Same grain scale and Chrono.

326 grain arrow 280 fps 56.77# KE

497 grain arrow 232 fps 59.41# KE

171 grain heavier arrow lost 48fps and gained 2.64# KE If I use the heavy arrow Iwillbe pretty sure my shoots are gonna be close range.

Dan

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Please don't think that I am doing anything beyond discussing here and not arguing with you as I KNOW you are more knowledgeable than I in this arena. With that said, if all of my shots were 25 yards or less, then you are 100% correct and I would have a heavier arrow. However, what is the difference at 40? 50? With my set up, if I am dead on at 50, then at 51 I am right at 1" low. 52 yards 2" low. 53, 3" you get the idea. So, would I have that kind of range estimation forgiveness with a 490 grain arrow?

I once killed a cow elk, my first elk, at 34 yards. I forgot to adjust for the distance beyond 30, but because of the "forgiveness" of the faster arrow I sliced her heart. Same with a mule deer buck that I originally ranged at 40 and he moved between then and when I was ready to shoot, and after I took the shot I ranged where he had been standing at 43 yards and the arrow was barely low at allon impact. Also, my only non pass-thrus have been on whitetails and those both buried in the opposite shoulder.

I'm not saying my reasoning is flawless, I am just telling you what it is. I am always open to changing my mind.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Those numbers are definitely not from a youth bow setup and I'm sure you know a youth set up while the percentage may increase you are stillonly talking about acouple ofpounds of kebut I can definitely understand tweeking to maximize any bows potentialand even though I would agree that 84 is 5 more than 79, both numbers are about 3x what you actually need. Not sure what other benefits you gained but my main point was most modern compound set ups produce plenty of KE, how you tweek them is nothing more than personal preference. imho

10% of 79 is 7.9lbs so I am not sure how gaining only 5 lbs turned into an 11% gain (an 11% gain would have actually been a gain of 8.69 lbs. real world numbers) A 5 lb gain from 79 is about 6% on my calculator but I do get what you are saying.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

New, you make a good point. I was watching some lady bowhunt elephant on TV the other week and I think her bow had 80 ft-lbs of KE. I know that some countries demand a higher KE, but obviously not the one she was in. That might have been a case where $ talks, but I don't know.

On a side note, I think that lady could have easily benchpressed me[&:]

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Huntingson, to be honest, I'm not sure what the drop is beyond 30 yards, but I do know this....The heavy arrow doesn't slow down as quickly as the light arrow, and at some point the lighter arrow will drop quicker....But I don't know what those numbers are. Someone with ontarget 2 could give us those numbers I would think...

But, let's say you have 3 pins set for 25, 35, and 45 yards. We know the 25 is good out to 30.....and beyond that we need another pin. So, let's say you have a deer out there at 32 yards and you put your 35 yard pin right on him......He's a dead man, no way around it, unless you aren't aiming in the right spot....You'll hit him a tick high, but not much....Now let's say he's 38 yards......Now yer gonna hit him a little low, but he's still dead. Now....if he's over 40 and you use your 35 yard pin, you're probly gonna miss low, but you would w/ the light arrow at that range too. I would be curious to have someone run the numbers, cause I honestly don't know what they are....

NEW, You're right, it's only a 6% gain, I see where I messed up the math...my bad, and my apologies. And I also agree with you, when we're talking these numbers, it really doesn't matter much. Which is why, as I've said in another thread somewhere, I'm not sure there's really much to debate. I'm not so sure one is really better than the other, honestly......They're just....different, and it's up to the shooter....

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

I don't know why.....but RJ told me to shoot my 82nd on 55#'s with a heavier arrow v. 52#'s with a lighter arrow......for a 3D setup (have to stay 280fps+3%). He plugged it in....and the heavier arrow won.

Huntingson....like you said.....(for a heavy arrow) 25yds is ALL I'm gonna shoot.....but more than likely, .....less.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Mobow, I agree it comes down to whatyou like or what has worked for you in the past more than anything. No need for apologies, math is dumb:D, I understood the point you were making.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Jeff im just curious, why are you closing your range in? Just curious.

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Young Aaron......

Because I'm not as good as I thought I was.

Gospel.

Honestly (and the above is still true...)....I posted on here about a doe I saw on the side of the road a few weeks back....and how I had to watch her suffer until the GW came to meet me and dispatched her. That right there made me think. My effective range is gttin shorter instead of longer;)

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

You can stick a 12 @ 40yrds. but you cant put a kill shot on a deer passed 25? :eek:

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

That is a good point. I would definitely be curious to know where that crossover occurs for no other reason than pure curiosity.

I forgot through the course of this that I did increase my total arrow weight by 15 grains when I went from an 85grain Wasp head to the 100 grain Rage. There was no noticeable difference out to 40 yards, which is all I have checked to date. So, now my hunting arrow is almost 400 grains. I think that is probably a mid-range arrow

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Don't worry after you see my arrow blow threw an Ohio Turkey, you will want to be just like me:D

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

As your guide (which is laughable all by itself) I will be carrying the back-up gun. And it aint for safety purposes:D

RE: The Heavier the Better??
 

Dude[8D] Dude I cannot wait, I am all stressed out:(