A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

WE HAVE FRIENDS THAT OWN A LARGE FARM IN NORTHERN MICHIGAN. THE NEXT FARM OVER RAISES BEEF CATTLE. THEY RECEIVED A BLOCK PERMIT LAST YEAR BECAUSE OF CROP DAMAGE. THEY KILLED 75 DEER LAST YEAR(THEY SAY). THIS YEAR THEY RECEIVED ANOTHER BLOCK PERMIT AND ARE BRAGGING ABOUT KILLING 65 DEER.
I DID NOT BELEIVE IT SO I WENT TO SEE FOR MYSELF. I COULD NOT BELEIVE MY EYES. MY FRIEND AND I FOUND 12 DEER CARCASSES ON HIS FARM. WE THEN FOUND DEER CARCASSES PILED UP DE-COMPOSING ON TRHE NEIGHBORS FARM.
WELL I WAS STEAMIN MAD. I CALL ANOTHER FRIEND WHO IS A DNR OFFICER IN ANOTHER COUNTY. I ASKED HIM TO TAKE AN INTEREST IN THIS NONSENSE. WHEN HE CAME TO LOOK, HE IMMEDIATLY STARTED TO TEAR UP. I GUESS YOU HAD TO SEE IT TO BELEIVE IT. WELL HE WENT TO ARREST THESE IDIOTS AND THEY PROVIDED TO HIM A DOCUMENT THE DECLAIRED THAT THEY COULD ELIMINATE THE THREAT TO CROP DAMAGE. THERE WAS NOTHING HE COULD DO.

CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT. SOME ONE IN THE GOVERNMENT IN MICHIGAN ISSUED A DOCUMENT THAT GAVE THIS IDIOT THE RIGHT TO, IN EFFECT, ELIMINATE THE HERD IN THE AREA.

WELL TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT, WE HAVE FILED A LAW SUIT TO GET A INJUNCTION TO STOP THIS SLAUGHTER. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THIS ISSUE. OUR NEXT STEP WILL BE THE MEDIA.

IT IS SAD THAT THIS WHOLE ISSUE IS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS FARMER WILL NOT MOVE A ROUND HAY BAIL CLOSER TO THE BARN AND THE DEER ARE FEEDING ON IT AT NIGHT.

ANY THOUGHTS ON A BATTLE PLAN?


HUNT ON HUNT HARD EAT WELL

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

chef#1, you are right, this is a very serious issue that needs to be taken care of immediately. I am very surprised that the DNR officer could not do anything about it, being that the deer belong to the State and not the farmer. It seems to me that these IDIOTS are nothing more than killers with to much time on their hands. If the DNR cannot do anything about it, your only other option might be the media. Good luck and keep us informed with how things are going.

hc4runner
MO. bowhunter

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

That is horrible. I'm a new hunter and am just now being impacted, not just with nature because I've always loved the outdoors and nature, but with the pleasures of the hunt. The excitement, the patience, the discipline, etc. I am in-love with hunting at this point and I've only been hunting once. And it there was no romance involved. I sat out in 0 degree (-0 windchill) weather for 5 days in 2002 here in Missouri and saw 2 deer (at 200 yards). And even after that being my first experience I love it. And the fact that these ranchers have such a lack of respect and, as you said, won't even move a bail of hay but would rather kill 100+ of these things in 2 years is ludicrous. I hope you get this resolved.

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

Hey Chef,
I take offense to this as well, being just south of you. There are regulations in the government that need to be adressed with this issue. While I don't think this particular situation is all that common, many farmers get these permits and have free reign to slaughter deer. I think with these permits the farmers can shoot them out of season as well.
The DNR here as tried to adress this with their "public hunting on private land" program. This gives farmes block permits to issue to hunters on a day to day basis. The crop damage is reduced and hunters get a primo spot...win win situation. However the list of landowners is pretty small.

You should check this site out and post this there too...
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com

They have more than a few DNR C.O.'s that frequent the site and will put these guys under the microscope.

Sorry to hear about your shoulder too. Hope your back to 100% befor October.

Trushot }}------>

Edited by - trushot_archer on 02/08/2003 13:55:11

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

TRUSHOT,
THANKS FOR THE INFO ON THE WEB SITE. WE HAVE FORMED A FAIRLY LARGE GROUP THAT PLANS TO FIGHT THIS PROBLEM. I FEEL BAD BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO HAD DEER IN THERE BACKYARDS FOR ALL OF THERE LIFE HAVE NOT SEEN ON YET THIS WINTER. ITS A SHAME THAT WE IN MICHIGAN HAVE ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN.

OH YEA SHOULDER SUCKS BUT GAVE ME TIME TO INVEST IN THIS CAUSE. LOTS OF REHA.

HUNT ON HUNT HARD EAT WELL

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

Remember guys, we are talking about this guy's business and the way he makes a living to feed and support his family. Obviously you don't have all the facts, because I seriously doubt he would be given a permit to kill all the deer affecting his crops unless it was a major problem. That being said, if he is senselessly killing all the deer just to be an a$$hole, then I'm right with you. However, if the deer are really hurting his business I see no problem with what he is doing.

Hunt the thickets

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

Hey chef, where in Northern Michigan is the otrosity taking place? I'm from Manistee county and was wondering if this is taking place anywhere near me?

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

I dont think you have all your Facts straight Chef#1. I dont think the Government has anything to do with this issue. One this type of thing is all about the DNR. Also the the dnr just does Not give out Permits to kill. The DNR comes out and LOOKs the Problem over and then and only then that they may issue the permit. The Farmer has a right to Make a living just as you do. The only differ is that he's still living off the land that his Dad or grandparents had and now he has. THE THING IS I DONT AGREE WITH IT MY-self

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

The only thing that bothers me about it is you make it sound like it was a waste of good meat. Did they just shoot them and leave them lay or did they harvest them and use what could be used, like keeping or donating the meat.

It also makes me sick that they killed more deer than I saw this season. Not from a moral stand point, I'm just jealous! I wonder if they were taking them legally or going by the same rules we have to. 65 or 70 deer in a 90 day hunting season is a pretty damn good success rate. Especially considering most tags issued don't even get filled.

I would not get the media involved, that will just make all of us look bad and lead to more restrictions for hunting overall. The only reason you get to hunt is to keep the numbers in check. It is not your God given right. If the government did not want you to hunt them or the numbers were low, it would not be legal or way less permits would be issued. Like said above, I was under the impression in these cases they do a little research to find out if there is a need or good reason for this kind of heard thinning. They also pobably have a pretty decent idea of the numbers in that area and knew if the population could handle it or not. At least I would hope so anyway.

Paul

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

TO ALL, YOPUR POINTS ARE WELL TAKEN AND I APPRICIATE YOUR INTERACTION. I GUESS THAT MY MOST SERIOUS ISSUE IS THAT, WHEN I WENT TO VISIT, I SAW DEAD CARCASSES JUST LAYING IN A PILE. THEY IN NO WAY HAVE TRIED TO UTILIZE, BURY, OR HANDLE THESE DEAD ANIMALS. HOW MANY HUNGRY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK 75 ANIMALS WOULD HAVE FED. I REST MY CASE HERE.

HUNT ON HUNT HARD EAT WELL

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

Everywhere I'm familiar with that has crop damage permits does NOT allow the carcass to be utilized, you have to leave it where it's shot.
Here in MD and NJ they shoot them in the guts with .222 and such so they run back and die in the woods, and don't litter up the fields with dead deer.
Disgusting.
A man has to make a living, but shooting does in July so their fawns definitely die, or shooting them in the guts so they don't die in the fieled, makes you want to take a permit out on the shooter.
I know quite a few farms where the land is leased to hunters, and they have no idea about the deer shot during the summer by the landowner.


"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

I guess it's a good thing Wisconsin considers our deer herd a natural resource! Our crop damage kills are consumed just like everything else. Anything else is a waste of a natural resource and should be punishable by law!



Edited by - bowfanatic on 02/10/2003 17:33:13

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

where I hunt, farmers get permits all the time from the DEC. Most of the deer are shot at night with spotlights, aim for the eyes. Many times the deer are given to food drives.

Nobody likes having there deer shot underneath them. But I am out there trying to put racks on the wall, the farmers are trying to pay there mortgage and feed their kids. I can't fault them.

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

6ptSika... I've never seen a crop damage permit that said I had to leave the animal laying. In fact, I hunt on a crop damage permit and will have two different farms this year. We are issued X amount of tags for the property. Ours have always stipulated "Doe Only". We tag the deer and use the meat. In fact, we keep the tags for one property in a pump house. One night we were hunting 100 yards away and didn't pick up a tag. We shot a deer, and were met at the trucks when we dragged it out. He ask where the tag was, when we pointed and showed him he said, take it with you and fill it out in the field. OF course he was right, we just forgot to pick one up.

CHEF #1: I appreciate your pain. The crop damage farms I hunt never get large numbers of tags. The year before last 10, and the reissued when we filled them in a week with bows. This past year 10 but we quit at that point. The farm next to one place I hunt killed 197, 100, and 100 in 3 consecutive years. I say that was to much. They left some laying. Because of who the land owner was(politics) it would have done no good to say anything about the waste. They didn't leave them all, but the year the shot 197 I found several they'd just thrown in the weeds boarding our line.

However again, if you could have seen some of the damage done to their crops and some of the herds of deer, you would know why it was necessary to do something. For years our state stuck their head in the sand on increasing the bag limits. Land access is harder every year with more and more areas becoming locked. Now the herd has exploded over the past 15 years and they're playing catch up. So Maryland went from a state where you could shoot a couple deer a year 10 years ago to "UNLIMITED" doe tags(free) in some counties. The problem didn't happen over night. It came about from years of mismanagment. I think that's one thing all the QDM talk has done. It's educated some of the "EXPERTS" who are suppose to look out for these problems before they happen.

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

Here on Long Island most of the permits are does only unless they are a nursery or tree farm where they have rubbing damage. One of biggest things is that most of the "shooters" on the permits want to shoot only the big bucks which doesn't help the farmer because the does will be breed and there will be more deer next year and his problem will persist. Also many of the shooters don't start shooting on the nuisance permit until September when the velvet is off the antleres which tells you that they are only looking to shoot bucks. This is also true with the bowhunters that hunt these farms. There are alot of bowhunters who don't want to shoot does and help with a over population of deer, that is why DEC gives out bonus permits (for a buck or another doe) for shooting a doe when you use a DMU tag. There are also farmers who don't really need a permit that they have some hunters pushing them to get a permit so they can shoot a big buck. This a tough call whichever way you look at it. The hunters would like to have the deer around so they have a chance at them during the season yet on the other hand you may have a farmer who is making a living on the crops he grows. I can't fault either side as long as the farmer really needs the nuisance permit.

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

I've heard about these nusiance permits, but that sounds like slaughter to me. I say maybe we should donate a dollar a piece to the fund to stop the slaughter!<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Der Jagd Meister
aka [email protected]

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

WI has these types of permits although they are not to be shot and left. Many farmers hand out the permits to friends etc. One thing about WI though is that if they receive these permits they have to allow tresspassing for hunting. I don't know how many, but they do have to allow some.

Chef #1; Just a friendly suggestion....please don't post in all caps. It makes it much harder to read. No offense!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

&quot;Semper Fi&quot; Mac!

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

Chef this happens all across the country...and the DNR is the entity that issues the permits. From the reaction that I'm seeing here it appears as though some of you are as radical about persuing this as the anti's are about stopping us from hunting. You need to consider all of the facts before you pass judgement, go to the media, and file lawsuites. BTW moving a bail of hay closer to the house isn't going to keep deer from eating it. Truth be known, killing 65 to 75 deer in a few hundred acres, looks like they have an overpopulation problem to start with. Even the herd out, the crop damage will slow down and the herd will become healthier. So I'm suggesting that you don't get so radical about this issue w/o doing some homework first. Go to the media with it and the antis will love you for it!

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

I agree with Belle Island on this one.

&quot;Pain is weakness leaving the body&quot;

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

So the farmer has a point of view, big deal. So does chef. Not sure how a lawsuit could be helpful, unless you can prove loss, probably financial, but I don't have the slightest knowlege of Mich. law. Would be interesting to know how safely this whole thing was done.

I wonder who he sells his product to, and how they would feel being associated with this wildlife kill. Lots of pictures the more graphic the better.

You can definetly take it to the media, but in a questioning way: Gosh I didn't know people were allowed to do it? Is there a health problem with leaving carcases around? Will it attract wolves or rabid Cayotes, I mean I have kids? Didn't all that Mad Cow start with cows feeding on carcases, is our food safe? The deer were scattered all over the place, did he have a safe backstop for all those shots? Where these hunters trained in any way to shoot at night? How did those shot deer end up on other peoples' property, were the shooters tresspassing? Can I move the deer, or will the DNR arrest me for hunting out of season, and seize all my property? Is there a financial provision for removing the carcases? Are my kids safe from lyme disease if they play near the dead deer? (The questions don't have to be smart, wanting to look smart is the death of a lot of useful subversion).

Gosh I really respect the right to farm (bumper stickers should be on your cars), and those people he sells his food to (repeat names at least three times), but this just has me real concerned for whether it is safe around here...

If you want to take the high hand, then you have to be sure of all your facts, and relatively certain that the public is more sympathetic to tree huggers and hunters, than farmers.

Before heating it up, you want as much info as possible. Why did the DNR offer such a broad permit?

RE: A SERIOUS ISSUE
 

In Wisconsin, the tags are handed out on a decided basis. The DNR researches the area and the land and decides how many tags the the land owner gets to take care of the problem. The most I have ever seen is 20 tags for one plot of 200 acres. The farmers must allow people who ask to hunt on the land and they can use any method that is legal during normal hunting season to take a deer. The farmer must report who is hunting on his land and may not deny access unless all of the tags are used up. Harvested deer must be tagged, and registered. After that, they are treated just like a deer shot during hunting season, the person who tagged the deer may do what they want with it. I think it is a good program if it is done properly.