3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Why.....as a 3D shooter....is this important to me?

What about as a hunter?

Thanks.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

This is easier.........:)

http://www.spot-hogg.com/newsletter1.shtml

http://www.spot-hogg.com/newsletter19.shtml

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Basically, in VERY short form, it's to prevent a false reading on your bubble level when shooting up/down hill. You will correct the bubble, and in the process be torquing the bow w/out knowing it....Causing your shot to stray right/left......

I'm still learning a helluvalot about 3rd axis myself, but that's the gist of it, as I understand it.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

MAtt:

I'm GONNA read that...I promise....but....

Do you guys look at your level when you're shooting 3D......during a comp. round?

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

EVERY SINGLE SHOT.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

I learn something every day.

Matt...Honestly....I use my level when i practice. I think it's a great tool. When I shoot in a comp. round, though....I trust my practice. I'm just being honest.

I also (after reading those articles) am pretty sure that I nor anyone I have access to locally can properly set up my bow/sight with the proper 3rd axis adjustment.

I see the merits. I just don't think I know of anyone who has this expertise. Am I being too critical?

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

GMMAT, I am in the same boat you are. Noone around here messes w/ 3rd axis stuff, which I why I am leaning HEAVILY on this forum. Matt/PA and Rick James, and TFOX have all been incredibly helpful, and I'll continue "using" them....:D

I am looking at it as a way to become a more valuable asset to the pro shop I work at.......

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Exactly how good do you want to be?;)..........would you rather trust the bow is set up properly and know that it was YOU that missed the 10ring by 1" to the right on a downhill shot? Or would you rather wonder if it was you or the bow?

Getting to the advancing levels in this sport is a culmination of a crapload of details.

2nd axis leveling is ABSOLUTELY critical on any shot, its one of the bases of good accuracy. It's also a simple adjustment.

3rd axis IMO is just as important especially in the terrain I shoot and for the distance and precision that I need to have.It's nothing for me tospend an entire DAY at our hilly club doing nothing but uphill/downhill shooting, grouping and tuning to make sure my 3rd axis is on.

Might as well start to learn and incorporate all of it now. :)

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

How long would it take (and what equipment would be necessary) to properly adjust the third axis on a sight/bow combo?

Yeah...I'd like to know it was "me" on every shot....good or bad.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Jeff:

As Matt said, look at that bubble EVERY shot on the 3D course. Crazy sidehills, etc......where you have bad footing.........what feels right isn't always so. Trust me on this. It should be part of your shot sequence. This is a big part of why I really prefer a sight with a larger bubble too, because after the initial check on that bubble I like to be able to see it subconsciously through peripheral vision as I'm aiming. If something doesn't feel perfect I can know where that bubble is without breaking concentration from the target if I have a large bubble.

You need to convince the shop to buy a quality 3rd axis vise. We have a Medicine Stone at the shop I help at, and I'm buying one for my house as well. They are a bit expensive, but are the best designed unit out there I've seen yet. I also much prefer the HTM levels kit over the Medicine Stone levels, because the HTM's will allow you to get the bow in the vise with your string completely level on 2x planes without moving the level, I'm yet to see another stringlevel out there that has a bubble for 2x planes.

Medicine Stone Bow Vise:





One of these days I will take a quick video to share on youtube of how I set 3rd axis. I plan to have a 3D specific bow in the next 3 weeks or so and when I get it, I will take a video when I set it and share with everyone. I really prefer to do it on the bow, as compared to a lot of guys have a jig setup to test 3rd axis with the sight off the bow, and if there is any variance between the riser and string's plane then you have an issue (I've seen this personally).

***Edit*** - To add to this, once I've set it on the vise, I will go outside and shoot a few groups at themaximum distance I've got a pin for (47 yards)at extreme angles to see what happens just to check everything. Every time I've set it on the Medicine Stone though, I've never had a problem once checking. I would still recommend to do this every time.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Jeff

Once you have the 2nd and 3rd axis worked out learn about the benifits of the 4th axis:D

Check out this web site it has info on the axis's and you can buy a 3rd axis leveller just click on the product tab.

http://www.archerytech.com/

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Checking the bubble should become part of the shot routine, it can show problems even when you have perfectly level and comfortable footing, hills or anything not level near or behind the target can play tricks with your brain and make you cant the bow. If you get it into the shot routine to check/adjust to the bubble your life becomes better.

There are some easy, though not perfect ways, to check the 3rd axis. I've used a doorway to do it. Rest the bow against the doorway (first make sure the doorway is plumb!). Make sure the sight bubble is level (2nd axis I believe). Now assuming your doorway/wall will allow this, rotate the bow keeping it up against whatever you're using, if the bow stays square to the floor, the bubble should stay centered.

Not all sights have a third axis adjustment, but they are nice. Even if you can't do 3rd axis you may find you need to adjust it to be on on the second axis!

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

RJ: Does that way of setting the 3rd axis (not at full draw) take into account that when the bow is drawn, the riser rotates as suggested in the spot hogg article Matt posted? It would make sense that when you draw back, as energy is stored into the cables, it would make a right handed bow rotate right, which it does as I can see when I draw my bow back with a long stab on it.

Edit: I see that you go out and shoot to test and it's usually right on.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Again I say it,if the 3rd axis is not set to the path of the arrow,it is not set right.Ausie gave a good link that shows how to do it very easily.The 4rth axis adjustment is just an easy way to make sure the 3rd gets set to the arrow.The 4rth,in and of itself really isn't a big deal,unless you slide the bar in and out to gain yardage on a slide bar.



Here is a thread I made on the subject some time back.There a few good links in the thread,I believe all that were listed here are in it.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2282390


AND yes.when I was competing,I looked at the level on every shot.I even give it a glance when hunting,I just don't feel it is quite as critical on a hunting setup.UNLESS,you hunt on really hilly terrain where an uphill 40 yard shot is something you might run in to.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Another good reason to set the 3rdto the arrow path with the 4rth axis tool.I never used one,I would just shim the sight bar mount with an old credit card or whatever was the right thickness.:eek::D


I actually learned that trick from my friend that tunes bows for world competition shooters(a few worl records on his bows)on his hooter shooter.I got my bow back after he had installed the new strings and gave me a free tuning on the machine and I noticed the shim(before the 4rth axis tool had even been invented)and that was because my riser was not square to centershot which meant my sight bar could not be used to set my 3rd axis unless it was shimmed so it would run parallel with the arrow,then I could easily use the sight bar and even check if my 3rd was still on while in the field by just putting a level on the sight bar and tilting the bow downhill.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

This stuff gives me a headache!

I've got a Masters in Engineering from Purdue but I just can't grasp the concept of 3rd axis leveling.....

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Think of the arrows path(centershot of the bow)as another plane that the bubble has to be SQUARE with.If that plane isn't maintained on a square plane with the bubble,you will hit left or right and lowof the intended spot.


That is all a level does,reads square,when it gets rotated downhill,it must remain square with the intended plane(in this case,arrows path)to read correctly.


Give it some time to sink in,not really all that difficult.[8D]

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Instead of the bubble "rolling over" on a level plane, it's twisted 45 degrees, meaning one end of the level is higher than the other, making it appear the bubble isn't level.

Imagine a 3 deminsional rectangle. Perfectly level to the ground. Let's call the end on the ground side 1, then the next side 2, and so on.....So you're on side 1, and you roll it halfway between side 1 and 2. If that rectangle doesn't remain perfectly level, the bubble will lift to the high side. Thus creating the illusion that the bow isn't square. So you torque the bow to move the bubble back to level, and what you've actually done is moved it OUT of level, thus shooting right or left.

Man, I know exactly what I'm trying to say, but I'm not saying it very well........Wish I could draw a picture...

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

I actually illustrate just this on my thread with pictures. My homemade level is actually square on all sides to the bubble,just like you are trying to explain.

The protractor level is not square to the bubble on all sides.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

All of these pictures are taken on a flat surface with the level staying in contact with it the whole time.


Notice how the protractor bubble moves as I rotate it over.



Notice how the bubble stays cenetered as I rotate the square level over.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

It keeps going over my head... [&:]

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Yea TFOX, repost those pics...They do an excellent job of describing being parallel to the arrows path.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Ok Dan.....this is pretty rudementary, but you'll get the idea, I think.

Picture 1 is a level, sitting perfectly level to the ground. The blue circle represents the bubble. Now, roll that cube forward, on the pink line. If it doesn't roll perfectly level, (3rd axis) the bubble will look like the 2nd picture. You will then correct the level, causing the bow to be canted badly, and miss right/left. Hope this works, my paint skills suck.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

This is what happens if you set up square to the sight bar and the sight bar is not square with centershot(arrow path)







Doing either one of these will set the 3rd accurately.Spelling correctly obviously isn't necessary to understand this.:eek:

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

I think I get it now... I just had to imagine playing around with my sight level. Let me know if this is correct;

Assume first of all that the 2nd axis is set properly.

If the bubble level is perpendicular to the riser, and the riser is perfectly vertical, then aiming up hill or downhill will result in a bubble level that reads "level" if the riser remains perfectly vertical.

However, if the bubble level is NOT perpendicular to the riser, then aiming up hill or downhill will result in a bubble level that reads "not level" when the riser IS perfectly vertical. So in essence, your bubble level lies to you on uphill or downhill shots, resulting in left - right misses.

Since riser torque is introduced at full draw, you need to set the bubble level so that it's perpendicular to the riser when at full draw.

Is this right?

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

YOU GOT IT BRO!! That's the deal right there.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Except I think I should say "perpendicular to the path of the arrow" instead of "perpendicular to the riser"..... Right?

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Well, if you're centershot is set perfectly, theoretically it's one in the same.....You got the idea though.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

OH.

I get it.

:)

I don't like it, it makes me think way more than I like, but I get it.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Thanks mobow... Now I don't feel so stupid :)

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

NOT THE RISER,unless it is parallel with the arrow.The riser does not go downrange,the arrow does.But in essence the rest of it is correct.

But a level does not have to be set vertical with the riser to be correct.The second axis only has to be set perpendicular to the pins to be correct.You can cant a bow as long as the pins are vertical but it is not recommended due to it being so difficult to repeat.

Vertical with the riseris the best way to set a 2nd axis because a bow can be balanced to sit level much easier this way and is much easier to repeat.I feel it is also more forgiving this way as well due to a little off with a cant is more than the same amount off without a cant.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Well that makes ONE of us then......:eek:[&:] I'm just learning about all this myself, and my head hurts. Holy crap, where's the tylenol?

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Glad you caught it,but I had already made my response before I saw it.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Ok, so relativeley elementary question, but can someone explain each axis to me shortly?

Its honestly not something I've ever read about or considered. I set the bow up and tune it, without worrying about axises. I know that I obviously use them without my realizing it, but I'd like to know what it is I'm doing.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Here you go

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

1is just the sight bar which should be set with the riser

2 is the bubble which most try to set with the riser or sight barbut not an absolute necessity

3 is the sight being set square(perpendicular) to the arrows path


4 is the sight bar being set parallel with the arrows path.


Skipping to the 4rth after setting the 2nd can make it much easier to set the 3rd.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Not neccesarily,some bows(many) don't have the riser machined square with the centershot.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Ok, well, I did not know that. Man I love this site...I learn more here than I ever thought.....Now I know.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

Ok, it's funny that I seem to comprehend the 3rd and fourh axis adjustments much better than I can the 1st and 2nd (I'm a moron). Now the 1st axis isn't ever adjusted is it? It's simply the sight bar (or sight mount) sitting flush against the riser? The second axis is the leveling of the main bubble on the sight, but you say you set with the pins. What exactly do you mean? I would assume to set the 2nd axis, you simply rotate the sight housing until you read level, no? I feel really stupid right now[:@]

3rd axis makes sense, as does 4th axis. 4th axis should be set with the bow at full draw, but 3rd axis can be set in a fixture off the bow, correct? At least from what I gathered in this post and the one linked within this post.

RE: 3rd plane sight adjustment
 

You are correct,I made that one a little more difficult than I should have,the pins are set square with the bubble so the 2nd axis is just adjusting the level so the bow sits level in your hand and most use the riser or sight bar,same as the 1st plane.

I edited it.