3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

After being in the field deer hutning for 3 seasons, now.....my views on camo have changed. I used to think that camo pattern was EXTREMELY critical to "success". I still do....but I think there are other factors that play bigger roles.

No. 1 - SCENT CONTROL

If the average hunter knew he could spend 5% of his annual camo budget on improving this area of his pursuit.....and would commit to it.....I think he'd be far more "successful". For every story of not being busted on stand (due to a camo choice).....I wonder how many times that same hunter is busted per season by deer he never sees. I pay more attention to this than ever, now......and I admit to not starting out that way. I think I'll become more and more fanatical about this as I mature as a deer hunter. I am STILL guilty of going in when I have a less than perfect wind. Discipline on behalf of the hunter has probably been the demise of more deer than any other aspect of hunting (discipline in this area of hunting).

No. 2 - Comfort

A comfortable hunter is a hunter who'll likely stay on stand, longer. I have camo, now, that I use for different times of the year. THIS is where I've learned to spend the few extra dollars. The Wolfskin Enigma is great for certain times of the year.....but quite honestly a hinderance in the early season temps of NC. Luckily....with the advent of the Ultimate camo....I have the best of both worlds, now. Kudos to the men taking the chances with these companies. Home runs.

No. 3 - Camo Pattern

If No. 1 and No. 2 are followed religiously.....I think a hunter could be successsful in blue undies. What's "cool" or "hip" is becoming less and less important to me. I honestly have never killed a buck that saw me, first (the day I killed him). I still contend the camo patterns are for US (for the most part). Are there some that are better than others? Sure. I mentioned the two I trust, implicitly.

To me hunting is about stacking the odds in your favor as much as possible. In the woods....we are at a distintict DISadvantageunless we do this, and do so in a disciplined manner.

Anybody's goal (besides me) to hunt LESS (but smarter)in '08? I honestly believe I won't see a downtick in "success". I'm thinking quite the opposite will be true.

For you veterans.....this is old news. For guys starting out (like me)....it's lessons learned. I contend that some of the best time spent CAN be on the couch......in lieu of in a tree.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Jeff, in my 3 years, ( Ithink its kind of cool we both got a late start at the same time), I have noticed that movement, or lack thereof, Has made a big difference. This goes hand in hand with comfort for me. A more comfy stand, and a thermacell have made a difference. If I'm not trying to resettle myself or swat skeeters I'm much more likely to see game.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Well I agree to a point. But when hunting season rolls around and the time and opportunity is there, there is no way I'm passing time afield to be on the couch.

I agree that known areas should be avoided when the wind isn't right. (And thanks to guys likeBuckeye and Greg, I followed this advice to the letter EVERY sit in 2007). However when the wind wasn't right for spot "A", I used the many available online maps to find another area where I could utilize the wind of the day. Thats one of the advantages of having 3000 acres of public land. If the wind wasn't right I could still get afield and perhaps find that new hot spot. It now seems I have plenty of good areas and I can pick and choose based on the conditions. Sometimes I have too many areas and deciding which one to sit in is a coin flip.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I am certainly no world renowned hunter, and I can only speak from my experiences over 21 of my 28 years on this earth. I used to feel like you do abou the rank of importance of those three things, but I have definitely changed.

First off, I think the scent control is way WAY overrated, at least from a "I have to shower with X soap and where Y clothes and use Z spray". The key is to use the wind. Even after a week in camp without a real shower, if the wind is good you are good. If it is bad on day one when you are all "scent free" then you are screwed. Using the wind is of #1 importance to me no matter what you are hunting.

I agree with the comfort assessment.

Camo is VERY important though and the proper employment of it is as well. The complete lack of movement will make up for "bad" camo, but we all have to move in order to take a shot. If I am busted, whether it be on the ground during a stalk, or in a tree after whitetail, I am almost always busted by them seeing me and not by them smelling me. What I mean by proper employment is using the right pattern for your surroundings, using available cover, and moving only when the animal permits.My home made ghillie suit is great out west in the grasses, but it stinks here in themidwest in a tree. I have used camo out westthat the mule deer can just flat out see.Even if I was sitting perfectly stillagainst a tree they would justsee me.Just my thougths thrown kind of at random.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Greg....Believe it or not....THAT (movement) is what has made me change my stance on camo.

Case in pont...

It's my contention that a still deer is one of (if not THE most) the most difficult things to pick out in a forest setting. When they move.....is when we see them. I've honestly lost them after they've stopped.....and not seen them until they moved again (hasn't everyone???). I agree....this is KEY! There's a lot of things in the woods we don't notice. But if they move.....they stick out like a sore thumb.

GREAT point!

This is the reason I choose to sit a LOT more than stand when I deer hunt. I know I move, less. I'd like to know (just to know) how many times I've spooked a deer away that I never saw.;)

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

When the wind is wrong for my stands I go to a place where a line rat has put a stand on my boarder ,that way my scent freely floats through "their" sand site. ;);)Why waste a chance to hunt.:D;):D

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Huntingson....I agree. What I didn't say so well is....I think they are related.

"Forget the wind....just hunt"??? Please.

You are 100% correct....and my mind has slowly changed as to the importance of this. If I had to hunt where some of you guys do.....THIS would be my No. 1 priority (Wind). Where I hunt....I can mask my sccent to the point where I get away with more than most. I STILL think I need to be more disciplined to NOT hunt when the wind is even marginal. I've been guilty of this (hunting in a less than favorable wind) in the past a LOT. It's worked out, some.....but I'll always wonder if I haven't done as much harm as I have been successful (in the long run).

A goal for '08.;) Hunt less. Hunt smarter.

Again...GREAT point.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Jeff how many standsdid youhave setupthis past season all season?I forgot, how many acres you hunting regularly?

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I climb, every time, now. So I have unlimited sets.

I have access to +/- 100 acres......with the possibility of stretching that this coming season to 150acres. I may also spend some time on public land this year.......encompassing 3Kacres.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Ahh ok, just stick with the wind, entry and exits as best possible. These are my top 3.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I feel scaring deer while leaving a stand in the dark is one of the biggest mistakes bow hunters make. I think you are better off leaving while there is light enough to see than getting down in the dark and showing your hand.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Here's a question for ya Jim......

How do they know what we are in the dark?

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Wind is critical, but unreliable at best. Therefore scent control is needed to help out when conditions change on you. More attention to detail never hurts. If you hunt a place such that the wind it more predictable, then back up scent control is “less” important. I know of no place that exists near me.

Comfort is HUGE. Maybe its cause I’m getting older. The more comfortable I am, the longer & more still I sit.

Camo has saved my butt on several occasions. I’ve been picked off, but never figured out. After a LONG examination I was determined to be non-threatening. I then proceeded to kill the deer. In cases where I didn’t kill the deer, one less deer spooked is always a good thing.

Re: Jim’s idea, whether you leave while its light or dark, its imperative not to be detected. Darkness doesn’t help you from being seen, against an animal build to see in low light conditions. However, I also don’t agree with leaving early, and jumping the gun on a big one potentially walking in at last light.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Wrong thread

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Rybo/Jim:

Everything I read about whitetails tells me they see VERY well in that time of low light....just before dark and just before light. I don't think their night (dark) vision is capable of discerning what we are. I may be wrong. Everything I've read, though.....tells me they go through a transition time .....when their eyes are adjustingfrom the low light to the darkness (using different cones in their eyes or somehing like that). If you're going out in the first part of darkness.....wouldn't you be LESS likely to be noticed (and identified as a human) than you would if you went out when their eyes were at their peak performance (low light)?

Interesting discussion.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I am sure they see us much better in the dark than we see them.;)

My point is to use the time to quietly sneak away from the area you plan on bushwacking passing deer, without giving them thelocation of your stands .

Their ears work just as well in the dark.[:-]

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Again, Jim....I'm not arguing....just trying to learn.

What I've read is, though,they don't. RIGHT after dark...is when they're least effective at discerning shapes. MY contention is (and what I do in the field)....I go out after darkness has fallen.

Let me put it another way....

While it's better in my eyes to not spook deer on my way in to satnd in the mornings....I actually don't get too upset if I bump one going in. I don't think it has the first clue what I am in the darkness. I usually "blow" back a tthem if they blow at me.....and continue. i don't "think" they can see me, at all. I'd like to hear more about deer being able to see in the pitch dark.

Agreed.....but how do they know we're not just "more deer"?

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

#1 I personally think scent control is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, money making gimmick in this industry. I know many fellow hunters that buy all of the scent control clothing, all of the scent control sprays, wafers, deoderants, etc.BUT I dont know any hunters that use all of these products and completely disregard the wind. I dont spend money on these things , someone else does, yet we both play the wind when we hunt. Where has all of his money spending gotten him if he still hunts the way my stinky self does? In general though, yes, scent control is huge, by playing the wind and hunting stands on correct days.

#3 I would have to disagree with your take on camo. I find it extremely important for bowhunters and especially for us that hunt from the ground. I hunt from the ground more and more every year because I found myself too locked intothe idea I needed to be in atreestand to be succesful. If I liked a spot, but there was no tree to hunt from, I didnt hunt it. Not anymore, I have more piles of brush made into ground blinds in the areas I hunt than I have treestand locations. When you are eye level with a deer, in a natural ground blind (no popups), camo is of the utmost importance. I've taken 3 PY bucks the last 3 years and 2 were from ground blinds made less than 12 hours before the shot. I need my camo.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Since most mature bucks are almost completely nocturnal around here I can't believe darkness handicaps them as it does me.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

While they may see “best” at an intermediate light level, they still can tell what we are when its “dark”. There’s no doubt in my mind. Now, maybe they won’t “Spook” as they would when its light, but I believe that is because they feel safer that we don’t see them, not that they aren’t sure of what we are.

While we are on the topic….a red lens light will let you get away with things when it comes to deer and darkness. I learned this fox hunting & did some of my own experiments out in the field. As long as you aren’t making human noise, you can dang near walk right up to a deer if you keep your light in front of you and on them the entire time.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Great Rybo

Now 100,000 hunters in MI and PA are going to attached red lights on their guns and wallk up to deer:D

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

So then what you’re saying is that the numbers would decrease; interesting…

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I should have said poachers:eek:

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Jeff, everything I have read is opposite of this. One of the reasons deer don't have color vision is a lack of cones. The reason they have fewer cones than us is that there are rods in their place. Those rods are what allow deer to see better in low/no light conditons. Combine that with the tapetum in their eyes which collects the available light and reflects it back to the retina and its rods and you have an eye built for seeing at night. What I have read is that it is believedthey can see in pitch black night about how we see at dusk just before dark. That is, they can make out shapes, but not details. Just as we know it's a deer, but can't tell if it's a buck or doe, they can tell we are people in the dark, and that's enough. The thing is until we can see through a deer's eyes we will never know for sure.

I agree that wearing the right camo for the right situation is important and that playing the wind is important, but difficult depending on where you are. You usually hear about guys from the midwest preaching the wind because they can count on what they see on Weather.com being what they will experience because of the flatter nature of the terrain. Many of the places I hun have a good bit of topography, so what the wind may be doing according to Weather.com may not pertain to the area I want to hunt because of the land features shifting the wind. Many times it causes swirls which are very frustrating. Plus with elevation there are thermals to consider. So, scent control combine with playing the wind I believe is essential.

I also agree with comfort. If you are not still, you will be busted and not even know it.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I guess it isn’t funny if you have to explain; but I was implying that there are currently more than a 100,000 hunter/poachers using those tactics…
Oh well, maybe next time…

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Doooppeeee, Now I get it:D

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Interesting, Bry....but I've also heard this isn't exactly true.

I'm gonna do some more reading, I guess.....but I have always thought the darker it was....the better chance of me being undetected....or...identified.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

No doubt on this. It's still dark so if you keep quiet and move slowly you should be able to slip out undetected. Unfortunately, in the dark they will see us before we know to hide.

I can't remember where I read it, but I had read something stating that the reason deer will freeze in headlights is because it is like getting hit with a light while wearing night vision. You are temporarily stunned and blinded. The same source also stated that on very bright, sunny days deer tend to move later in the evening or earlier in the morning because the bright sun is hard on their low light geared eyes. This makes sense to me since my favorite days to hunt are overcast nasty days. I believe the light is only one of the factors that has them on their feet, but I do believeit is a factor.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I don't know guys. I personally posted about 2 years ago on here that I didn't think camo mattered much, but my opinion has changed after a full season in an open pattern.

I feel a good open pattern gives me the ability to hunt stands in an area that I wouldn't be able to hunt otherwise. When I find a key location I want to hunt (stream crossing, saddle, staging area, etc) the #1 thing for me is wind direction, and entrance/exit routes. After this, I've gotta find a "perfect" tree on whatever side that the wind and entrance/exit routes dictate. A lot of the time, I can't find a "perfect" tree on that side that's gonna break up my outline, and in these situations I would just not hunt that area because I didn't want to risk bad wind, ect. Now I'm able to hunt these trees with a more open pattern, and I don't get picked off.

My largest food plot has a stand on it that is only good when we get a north wind (rare). The past 2 years, we didn't get a north wind until the leaves dropped. Last season (2006) I hunted it late season, had the deer come out, and I was immediately picked off. This season, the same deer came out (same family group), same trail, same stand, same everything........and they stood around at less than 20 yards for the better part of a half hour.

Here is a pic of that tree from the plot just to give you an idea. It's fairly open here, with all the leaves on the tree........with no leaves you just feel naked in this tree but with the open camo.....I went unnoticed for an extended amount of time. I was picked off immediately under the same conditions by the same deer the year before.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Rick nice post.

I do they exact samething when I setup.
Being I have about every pattern now. When I setup a stand now I put what wind to hunt it, and what camo I think will work best;)

The guys who hunt Northen MI and PA where the deer have learned to look up it's a different ball game. I have been in pine trees with 1 little shooting window and deer spot me.
In SLP when I first started hunting I could dance the jig and a deer would not know.[&:]

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I am going to try and kill one in an old hawaiian shirt I have.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I bet you do;)

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

From what I read....deer see yellow....and that photo was taken in balck and white.

BUT...if you chose other colors....(besides blue and yellow)....I think it would be extremely adequate.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

There is no doubt that it could be done. However, if you are hunting all season for maybe 1 opportunity, is it worth the risk? That is where I am coming from.

I have seen a dramatic reduction in the # of deer that look up at me, elk that notice me, mule deer, heck a caribou almost stepped on me since I switched to an open pattern camo. Is it the only reason I get close? No, but it does help from time to time.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Seriously if I had the buck of a lifetime came in and got busted because of it I'd shake my head and laugh it off. Just like I would if another 100 things went wrong.

If I can even hunt next year it's all about fun.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

and I've read that that if you don't use a UV blocker you'll glow in the dark.;)What the heck when leaves change some of then a yellow.:D

I have killed deer more then once in blue jeans.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Scent Control
Here is a suggestion for all of you that believe in scent lok, special soaps, deodorants, gum, etc..
I did this a few years back over the entireseason and I now know with 100% confidence that these things are inconsequential, atleast in my area.

The next time you are hunting a particular tree or ground blind and have a favorable outcome (i.e. deer come downwind and you remain undetected) using all of your preventative measures, make a note of wind direction and approximate wind speed.

The next time the same conditions exist, go hunt the same spot WITHOUT taking any scent precautions. Do this on multiple occasions and multiple locations and then tell me what you think.
If you'll do this objectively, I think you willbe surprised that your results will be the same.

You need to do this multiple times as the age of the deer in question also needs to be taken into account when recording your obersvations.

Wind thermals, the topography of the land, tree height, etc sometimes causes our scent to go in directions that are unconventional making us think that all these scent measures actually helped us, when the reality is it wouldn't of mattered one way or the other.

You can't beat the deer's nose. If it was that easy, dope smugglers would wrap their drugs in scent lok and transport them across the country worry free from the sniffer dogs, right?

Butdon't take my word for it. Go do what I have suggested above, and then form an opinion based on your OWN experience.

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

Interesting discussion and opinions.

Here is my .02.

I'll be 50 on my next birthday so comfort is #1 on my list for hunting clothing. If I'm warm and comfortable, I will move less. I also look for a material that won't squeek when I move my big butt on my stand seat to adjust for a shot. I was busted twice this year because of that, one of those deer being the biggest I have seen in my neck of woods.

Scent control and camo pattern are a tie for me. I'm only concerned with color for clothes that I turkey hunt in.....I look for patterns that are a little more open now. I like the current crop of silvermax/xscent/medallist clothing for scent control. I've said before, when I wear it, I don't stink, or at least I can't smell me. I know deer have better noses, but I still like to pull off my clothes at night and not be rancid. I agree with those that say hunt high and pay attention to the wind. There isn't a substitute for this.

But, if I had to rank what was most important to me in hunting clothing, I would say price. If I can't get it on clearance I don't want it. :D

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

It's so comforting to see you maturing as a hunter. LOL[8D][8D]

RE: 3 seasons in the field.....Camo observance
 

I am not going to hi-jack your thread Jeff... but really get serious about scent control. Especially if you hunt high pressured deer. I'm not sure if you do.

Wear the rubber boots.. wear a good suit (scent-lok, scentblocker, x-scent) whatever.. just use them correctly. Wash yourself in the no-scent soaps or use baking soda... whatever.. just get serious about scent control. And hunt with the right wind directions for you.. whether there cross-winds.. or winds directly in your face... whatever.. but scent control should be apart of every bowhunters' arsenal.

And for some of you, of course it doesn't mean "forget the wind"... that's a slogan.

Last I checked a Chevy truck really is not "Like a Rock". Perhaps they should get sued for that..[8D]