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RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
I know for a fact that this chart doesn't hold up as I did it for myself a few years ago. The bow was a 2003 Pearson Freedom. I happened to be shooting really well the chosen day, averaging less than two inch groups at 40 yards.
According to the chart, and using my 20 yard pin to shoot 40 yards, my groups were hitting 16" low. Now if you look at the chart my bow's speed should have been right around 294-295 fps. The fact is the bow was shot over 3 chrono's and was actually propelling an arrow at 264 fps. I'd say a 30 yard discrepancy isn't even a decent ball-park figure. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Have you EVER actually compared a fast arrowOUT OF YOUR BOWverses a slow arrow?
That chart is useless in real world hunting situations. Most of us use pins so all we are concerned with is how much difference there will be between a slow bow/arrow if we misjudge by 5 yards or so at a given distance,quess what,the difference is so small that most aren't good enough shots to see the difference at 40 yards.Plus,if you misjudge by 5 yards at 40 yards,chances are you didn't get the animal anyways. EXTREME differences in speed will yield a noticable difference but not real world differences. You MAY see a difference when using 1 pin but if one knows how to setup a 1 pin sight,they will see little differenc in most cases at hunting distances,especially for 1 pin distances. This argument is OLD and has been discussed many times and I have actually seen a few come back after actually testing the mis difference in real world hunting distances and say the difference was very small. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: BGfisher I know for a fact that this chart doesn't hold up as I did it for myself a few years ago. The bow was a 2003 Pearson Freedom. I happened to be shooting really well the chosen day, averaging less than two inch groups at 40 yards. According to the chart, and using my 20 yard pin to shoot 40 yards, my groups were hitting 16" low. Now if you look at the chart my bow's speed should have been right around 294-295 fps. The fact is the bow was shot over 3 chrono's and was actually propelling an arrow at 264 fps. I'd say a 30 yard discrepancy isn't even a decent ball-park figure. I haven't been reading all the responses so this could have been asked or addressed. Maybe the chart shows actuall drop and doesn't take into consideration that a bow is actually pointed UP when fired.The chart is probably showing what would happen if the bow was fired parralel to the ground. I just went back and looked at the chart again and I have no idea where they came up with their numbers. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Just went back throgh this thread and came across this.
ORIGINAL: quiksilver The differencebetween a 275fps arrow and a 315fps arrow is less than an inch at 40 yards. The Physics: 2 objects traveling 120 feet, with one at 315 and the second at 275... (I'm horrible at math, so if I'm wrong - just show me what I did wrong) Object 1 will be in the air for .38 seconds, while Object 2 will be in the air for .44 seconds, a difference of .06 seconds. 275/1 = 120/.44 and 315/1 = 120/.38 In .38 seconds, a falling body will fall 27" In .44 seconds, falling body #2 will fall 37" d(meters1)=1/2(9.8)(.38)(.38) d(meters1)=.70756 d(inches1)= .70756 x 39 d(inches1)= 27 d(meters2)=1/2(9.8)(.44)(.44) d(meters2)=.94864 d(inches2)=.94864 x 39 d(inches2)= 37 You really need to get out there and do as Rick/Matt has done and I have done. I also have spent hours looking at ballistic calculators and the cost of getting the 330 usually isn't worth it. He is comparing 40 fps and I have compared 20 fps OUT OF THE SAME bow and on a 3 yard miss of yardage @ 40 yards,the difference of point of impact was 1/2";) This was from a lower energy bow to begin with. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Tfox - you've already pointed out why you're getting different "real world" results than the ballistics calculation: Your bow is pointed "up" when it goes off. You're talking about a 3 yard misjudge with human error...and acting lke it's some kind of smoking gun that your slower arrow only drops and extra 1/2"over 3 yards at 40 yards...Think about whatyou're telling me...if 20 fps makes1/2" of difference over 3 yards, using the 40 YARD PIN. Try it with the 20 yard mark... See if it's still 1/2". HINT: It won't be.
Math doesn't lie. You can sit here and swear on your mother's grave that your arrow only drops 1" between 20 and 30 - no skin off my back bro. But I've shot enough to know that these calculations are fairly accurate - but you have to understand what the numbers are actually saying, and how that relates to the real world- and then how to manipulate the results. Boy, you and Smartie Artie sure do get jacked up over a little physics. Like I told him- instead of complaining that it's wrong - get out your calculator and show me where I'm wrong. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
SORRY 1 more response.
This is a chart of my actuall setup and shows actuall drop when fired parallel to the ground. The only numbers that a hunter should concern themselves with are amount of drop per yard,that is somewhat close to the miss distance but not exactlt because the bow isn't fired parallel to the ground. This is all out of the same bow with the same poundage,only difference is the arrow weight and the charts are computer generated so they may be off a little BUT from what I have tested,it is pretty darn close.  ANd here is a slower/heavier arrowMuch heavier. This would be an example of an extreme difference in speed and arrow weight.290 grain difference in arrow weight,this really isn't a real world showing.  This is more of a real world showing.Compare this to the first one and you will see the difference is minimal at best. 61 grain difference and 17 fps  |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver Tfox - you've already pointed out why you're getting different "real world" results than the ballistics calculation: Your bow is pointed "up" when it goes off. You're talking about a 3 yard misjudge with human error...and acting lke it's some kind of smoking gun that your slower arrow only drops and extra 1/2"over 3 yards at 40 yards...Think about whatyou're telling me...if 20 fps makes1/2" of difference over 3 yards, using the 40 YARD PIN. Try it with the 20 yard mark... See if it's still 1/2". HINT: It won't be. Math doesn't lie. You can sit here and swear on your mother's grave that your arrow only drops 1" between 20 and 30 - no skin off my back bro. But I've shot enough to know that these calculations are fairly accurate - but you have to understand what the numbers are actually saying, and how that relates to the real world- and then how to manipulate the results. Boy, you and Smartie Artie sure do get jacked up over a little physics. Like I told him- instead of complaining that it's wrong - get out your calculator and show me where I'm wrong. If I shoot a 40 yard deer for 20 I blew it REGARDLESS OF SPEED SO IT DOESN"T MATTER,.That is the real world results most of us refer to. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
TFox - those numbers definitely lookpretty close to what the ballistics calculator is spitting out - with a 20 yard zero.
Thanks for posting those. Most of us don't have access to that software, but that goes to show you - just a simple online calculator will get you in the ballpark. Alsoshows those (Art)who werequestioning the "vacuum" calculationsthat the "Speed Degradation" within a normal archery effective range (50 yds)isn't really enough to be concerned about. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver TFox - those numbers definitely lookpretty close to what the ballistics calculator is spitting out - with a 20 yard zero. Thanks for posting those. Most of us don't have access to that software, but that goes to show you - just a simple online calculator will get you in the ballpark. Alsoshows those (Art)who werequestioning the "vacuum" calculationsthat the "Speed Degradation" within a normal archery effective range (50 yds)isn't really enough to be concerned about. These charts take into account many variables. BUT,like I said,the only number that really matters is the drop per yard number. It doesn't even work for 1 pin shooters because the bow is being shot parallel to the ground. I BELIEVE this is the trajectory chart for my hunting setup at 257 fps. Not sure and my program isn't working right now,this was saved. As you can see,at 40 yards,I can hit the vitals from 36 to 43 yards and in most real world cases,I have found that overall distance changes by LESS than a yard at each end with a speed bow and a slow hunting bow.  |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver ORIGINAL: Germ Fran you have to admit that is one cool looking toy, and you know when the PPG are on[&:] |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Todd - you suggested that I try it under "real world" conditions... Well, I did. Extensively. I played with this bow with every conceivable arrow/weight/speed setup imaginable - and I documented everything. Fact is: If you understand what that simple ballistics calculator is telling you - it is dangerously close to the real world results.
Even after the arrow slows down, and the sight line comes into play - it's close. And that's what I'm getting at. The reason it's close - is Newton's Law of Falling Bodies. When we're talking about an arrow that's only in flight for a fraction of a second...the "real world" factors of wind drag, altitude, pressure, rain, fog- they really don't have much time to affect the flight. It's just too fast. It's not in a vacuum, but it might as well be. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
You tested what the miss distance is at 40 yards for 2 arrows that weigh 100 grains difference.
This is really all a bowhunter should concern himself with unless they use 1 pin and then if you understand the actuall trajectory and setup the pin for the peak,the difference is still minimal and most 1 pin users don't shoot 40 yards. How much will you MISS if you misjudge by 3-4 yards with both? AND,that is 40 yards,not exactly a common distance for bowhunters. I am not saying there isn't a difference,all I am saying is that most are completely clueless to how LITTLE of an advantage the speed is and they usually cost themselves MORE than they gain. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
The below graphs show the impact points for the same bow, same arrow, and different speeds of 275fps, and 325fps..........a 50fps difference. These are assuming a 40 yard yardage guess, and an actual 45 yard target distance. Both graphs show the impact points of both speeds, but I included both so that Quick could see the actual drop numbers between the two.
With the 50fps difference and no other outside influences impact points are different by 1.55". This was calculated changing nothing with the setup other than arrow speed.....no fudging arrow diameters or fletching, etc. This was done in OnTarget2, the software used by more professional archers for making sight tapes and probably used to obtain more national titles and world records than anything out there. [8D]   |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
If I understand correctly,you only changed the arrow speed so the source would have to change meaning you would have to shoot a speed bow and compare it to a slow bow with the same arrow.Or crank the poundage up or down.
For most hunters,we just change the arrow to change speeds and the difference would be even less than what Matt is showing. Basically what this means is you still have to KNOW the yardage,a miss is a miss. Oh, and Matt,Perry(Archers Advantage)probably has a few world records and national titles as well. But,they are both great programs,I am actually thinking about investing in the OT2 myself. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Rick James- I couldn't help but notice that you were using the 40 yard estimate on a 45 yard target - and you got over 1.5" of difference. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The ballistics calculator that I useshows the same thing:
-5"lowat 45 yds, using the 40 yard pin at 275 fps -3.5" low at 45, using the 40 yard pin at 325 fps _________________________________________ a 1.5" difference. Go look for yourself. The cheapo freebie online ballistics formula spit out the same numbers as your archerysoftware program (because it uses the same basic physics formula). Now: Go back in and enter the same data that I did - recreate my table. You'll seesimilar resultsto thoseI got. I'm not makingstuff up out of thin air - and the results don't lie. I know some of those drop numbers seem high, but go outside and shoot a 50 yard target with your 20 yard mark and see where your arrow hits. Have your metal detector handy. The differences in trajectory (between fast and slow)become increasinglyamplified as you get further away from the zero. Again, my chart illustrates that. Itshows a ZERO at 20 yards with a single pin(not 40) - just to show how a single-pin will hit at various speeds. You're either not understanding what the graph represents (not likely), or you're just trying to twist the numbers to show me that a slow bowdoesn'tmake as much difference as my graph would lead one tobelieve(likely). ...and yes, Todd. I stood on the range and shot every stake (10-50) with my 20 yard pin centered in the bullseyewith arrows moving at various speeds (up to 370) - and I documented the point of impact. That ballistics table damn near hit it right on the nose. I hunt with one pin, and leave it locked at the 20 yard mark. If I'm taking a 40 yard shot, I use these very tests (confirmed by my real-world results)to know where to hold. **Also- note RJ's illustrationswith the two points of impact. A 5-yard misjudge at 45 yards with a bow shooting 275 takes you just outside the kill and results in a long, sad tracking job. Meanwhile, a 5-yard misjudge at 45 yards with a bow going 325 = low vital lung hit. Dead deer.** That's the crux of it. That's what 50 feet gains you, if you can get it. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
50 fps is alot and takes alot to get it,most can't even come close and like I said,50 fps out of the same bow using different arrow weights is LESS of a difference than the chart shows.If changing poundage,then the difference is more because you are increasing the stored energy which in effect changes the momentum and ke by a much higher percentage margin.
If you are using 1 pin,you should make it around a 25-27 yard pin(depends on setup)and it will be much more accurate for you at most hunting distances out to 40,that was what I was trying to say about 1 pin users. Then,that speed isn't nearly as much of a factor. Trajectory charts are awesome for 1 pin users and you don't have to get nearly as much speed as you thinkyou need. Most people would think that a 5 yard miss at 40 yards with 50 fps difference would be 4-5(or more)inches.Rick's picshows that not to be true. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
T,
I ran 280fps(for comparison)on "On-Target" and the chart quicksilver posted is correct.Using a 20 yrd. pin. Your trajectory chartfor 40 yrds. @257fps.also matches what On-target shows , but you're shooting a 40yrd pin. Both of you are correct , you're justlooking at it from 2 different prespectives. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
I just glanced at the chart and saw the +2.8 at 10 yards for me and really don't find that to be correct for me,after that,I really didn't study it.
Peep site height has alot to do with point of impact at that distance. My point about 1 pin users is to learn actuall trajectory and worry less about the total drop to best setup a hunting bow with 1 pin. I personally would never use less than 2 pins.I would set them up to be at the top of the kill and bottom of the kill out to 32-33 yards and never worry about speed or distance.Basically,have a 23 yard pin and a 33 yard pin.Place both on the vitals andjust shoot.;) Use a rangefinder for longer shots and hold a little high with both,this would be an extremely effective hunting setup but I use 4 pins and shoot accordingly.:) |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Well fellas, it's like this: The numbers in that chart are right on. I know it. I've confirmed them in real life, and they match the OnTarget data within fractions of an inch. It's not like I pulled them out of a hat, or called Miss Cleo orIM'ed some Haitian Voodoo Sorceress Prostituteto get them. This is pure Newtonian physics confirmed by real-life testing.
If you think I'm crazy, look over the chart again and try to figure out what it's telling you. Read and understand. If you're seeing numbers that look out of line, think it over and double-check yourself. Think about how your arrow's trajectory will look in relation to your line of sight through the peep. This IS complicated stuff, so keep that in mind. Run the numbers for your own setup and get an understanding of what your real capabilities (and margins for error) REALLY are. __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Just to give an example of how you can use this tool to gain an understanding of YOUR bow's trajectory, I'll showyou guys the results formy hunting setup (Zero at 23 yds): YARDAGE 10 23 30 40 50 350 FPS +1.70-3.4 -10 -20 |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Just for the heck of it.
Set the "0" at 27 yardsat 310 fps. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
310 fps Zeroed @ 27 yds
10 20 27 30 40 50 +3.1 +2.50 -1.6 -10 -20.8 |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Well shoot firethem there charts cant be right, because I have at least 5 self proclaimed experts a year tell me that their bows shoot dead flat from 0 to 50 and shoot groups this bigall day longat 80 yards (I am holding my hands together with a 2" circle formed in between them). Oh, and they always end with, "I chit you not"
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RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
I'm not sure anyone is telling you your chart is mathematically off as far as the numbers go. I think what they are trying to say is that every set up is different and that type of a chart in no way mimics what the trajectory of a given bow or set up will be.
If you take two shooters that shoot the same bow with the same arrows at the same speeds things can be different. Peep height, anchor points, sight radius, type of sight ( multiple pin/single movable pin), how you center the pin in the peep and other factors can effect how things will really work. I have used the arrow drop method to calculate speed several times on different set ups. Sometimes it is close, sometimes it is isn't. Sort of like using the wingspan method to determine draw length. Your simple program and chart also do not take into account for what arrow you are using. The dia., length, weight, fletching type and size all effect the actual trajectory of the arrow. Does your chart represent a 30 inch aluminum arrow that weighs 500 grns with vanes or does it represent a 25 inch small diameter carbon arrow that weighs 300 grns with 5 inch feathers on it? It really does make a difference. Here is calculator that is a bit more accurate and it is free as well. It just doesn't let you put in the zero range, it goes strictly off drop. Jacksons ballistic calculator Paul |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver 310 fps Zeroed @ 27 yds 10 20 27 30 40 50 +3.1 +2.50 -1.6 -10 -20.8 I would assume that the very small difference is arrow wt. I have 377gr. arrow input @310 fps @ 27 yrds. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: archer58 ORIGINAL: quiksilver 310 fps Zeroed @ 27 yds 10 20 27 30 40 50 +3.1 +2.50 -1.6 -10 -20.8 I would assume that the very small difference is arrow wt. I have 377gr. arrow input @310 fps @ 27 yrds. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver 310 fps Zeroed @ 27 yds 10 20 27 30 40 50 +3.1 +2.50 -1.6 -10 -20.8 So it looks like if you had a 25 yard "0" that the trajectory within the 30 yard range is VERY close and that is using a 40 fps slower arrow. Those 40 and 50 numbers are extremely close as is,you could tweak the "0" and have pretty close(not exactly)to the same setup with 40 fps slower arrow. I believe my point is pretty clear.Again,I never said there wasn't a difference but 40 fps is alot but the trajectory isn't nearly as different as one would think. This just shows you don't need to nitpick for every ounce of speed. I do like matt/pa,I shoot whatever arrow I want and whatever the speed HAPPENS to be is what it is.I don't worry with it because I know it is neglagable. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver Tfox - you've already pointed out why you're getting different "real world" results than the ballistics calculation: Your bow is pointed "up" when it goes off. You're talking about a 3 yard misjudge with human error...and acting lke it's some kind of smoking gun that your slower arrow only drops and extra 1/2"over 3 yards at 40 yards...Think about whatyou're telling me...if 20 fps makes1/2" of difference over 3 yards, using the 40 YARD PIN. Try it with the 20 yard mark... See if it's still 1/2". HINT: It won't be. Math doesn't lie. You can sit here and swear on your mother's grave that your arrow only drops 1" between 20 and 30 - no skin off my back bro. But I've shot enough to know that these calculations are fairly accurate - but you have to understand what the numbers are actually saying, and how that relates to the real world- and then how to manipulate the results. Boy, you and Smartie Artie sure do get jacked up over a little physics. Like I told him- instead of complaining that it's wrong - get out your calculator and show me where I'm wrong. Not trying to stir the pot, but you are right, and you are wrong. Math doesnt lie, but the chart is calculated as an Ideal machine in ideal situations. Which is nothing more than the math. Its not taking in account the friction coefficient of said fluid medium and the respective materials of said arrows. Also, it is ignoring inertia. It is simply the math of a projectile in respects of its velocity with no concernfor mass, shot in a vacuum. I feel this is where all the discrepancy is coming from here. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Yes, Tfox, but if you're playing thosegames with the trajectory - you'd behunting with a bow that hits over 3" hot inside 20 yards (where most actual hunting shots are taken, for me at least). I'll admit that if you fudge your zero out to 27 yds,your trajectoryisn't so bad at 310 (that's still smokin', as far as hunting setups go), but as you drop down under 275, you start to see the numbers getting out of whack pretty fast. I never said that you had a "bad" trajectory. I just said that if you zero at 20 yards, this is what it will be. It is what it is.
IMO, this is where a "hunter" and a "3d shooter" will butt heads.A competitive archer willalmost never take a 6-yard shot at a moving targetfrom a 25' platform, froze solid and running on 3 hours of sleep.They only shoot at non-moving styrofoam between15 and 39 yards... For you guys, one-pin 3+" high at 13 yards doesn't seem so bad. That's where a good 3d setup becomes a bad hunting setup. 3d guys set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 28 yard broadside black bear target) - and that's fair. Bowhunters set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 9 yard quartering buck - walking away - with 12 seconds to get the shot off - leaning away from the tree to get a clear lane).So, along those lines, I really don't think there's anything wrong with a one-pin hunter being zeroed at 20 yards. That's where most ofmy shotsare... So... It's only natural that we use that as my baseline in the field. You keep arguing with me here,but I'm not sure what you're arguing about. It is what it is. Every speed and trajectory has its own parabola. The slower it's going, the more drastic the curve. You can play all the games you want with where it's zero'ed, but it doesn't change the fact that the slower it's moving, the worse the trajectory becomes. __________________________________________________ _______________________________ Paul - this chart WILL tell you what the trajectory of any given bow will be. The shaft, fletchings, bow - do NOT matter. Newton's law of falling bodies. The difference between how THIS chart can be accurate, while the "drop speed calculator" will be off is simple: This calculator accounts for your zero and trajectory. The drop calculators just run a generic "9.8 meters per second squared" calculation - working backward from how far it fell, to attain "time in flight" and plugging in the yardage numbers to get a rough guess of speed. __________________________________________________ _______________________________ Burnie: I understand that the speed does degrade, and this chart doesn't account for it. But even if it did, the numbers wouldn't be all that much different. That's why I went out and confirmedmy ownballisticsunder "real world" conditions on my own. There are external factors that influence the numbers in both directions, and the result: it balances out fairly well. It's not exact, but it's as close as you're gonna get without wasting your life doing 30 pages of high-level physics. __________________________________________________ _______________ Just so we're all on the same page: A few pages ago, I was the village idiot for coming up with this ridiculous ballistics table. Now that you all have had time to play with your OnTarget software and pick at it - we realize now that the table is indeed correct? But, now we're just saying that my table is unrealistic, because nobody should be out there with just a 20-yard pin. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver Yes, Tfox, but if you're playing thosegames with the trajectory - you'd behunting with a bow that hits over 3" hot inside 20 yards (where most actual hunting shots are taken, for me at least). I'll admit that if you fudge your zero out to 27 yds,your trajectoryisn't so bad at 310 (that's still smokin', as far as hunting setups go), but as you drop down under 275, you start to see the numbers getting out of whack pretty fast. I never said that you had a "bad" trajectory. I just said that if you zero at 20 yards, this is what it will be. It is what it is. IMO, this is where a "hunter" and a "3d shooter" will butt heads.A competitive archer willalmost never take a 6-yard shot at a moving targetfrom a 25' platform, froze solid and running on 3 hours of sleep.They only shoot at non-moving styrofoam between15 and 39 yards... For you guys, one-pin 3+" high at 13 yards doesn't seem so bad. That's where a good 3d setup becomes a bad hunting setup. 3d guys set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 28 yard broadside black bear target) - and that's fair. Bowhunters set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 9 yard quartering buck - walking away - with 12 seconds to get the shot off - leaning away from the tree to get a clear lane).So, along those lines, I really don't think there's anything wrong with a one-pin hunter being zeroed at 20 yards. That's where most ofmy shotsare... So... It's only natural that we use that as my baseline in the field. You keep arguing with me here,but I'm not sure what you're arguing about. It is what it is. Every speed and trajectory has its own parabola. The slower it's going, the more drastic the curve. You can play all the games you want with where it's zero'ed, but it doesn't change the fact that the slower it's moving, the worse the trajectory becomes. __________________________________________________ _______________________________ Paul - this chart WILL tell you what the trajectory of any given bow will be. The shaft, fletchings, bow - do NOT matter. Newton's law of falling bodies. The difference between how THIS chart can be accurate, while the "drop speed calculator" will be off is simple: This calculator accounts for your zero and trajectory. The drop calculators just run a generic "9.8 meters per second squared" calculation - working backward from how far it fell, to attain "time in flight" and plugging in the yardage numbers to get a rough guess of speed. __________________________________________________ _______________________________ Burnie: I understand that the speed does degrade, and this chart doesn't account for it. But even if it did, the numbers wouldn't be all that much different. That's why I went out and confirmedmy ownballisticsunder "real world" conditions on my own. There are external factors that influence the numbers in both directions, and the result: it balances out fairly well. It's not exact, but it's as close as you're gonna get without wasting your life doing 30 pages of high-level physics. __________________________________________________ _______________ Just so we're all on the same page: A few pages ago, I was the village idiot for coming up with this ridiculous ballistics table. Now that you all have had time to play with your OnTarget software and pick at it - we realize now that the table is indeed correct? But, now we're just saying that my table is unrealistic, because nobody should be out there with just a 20-yard pin. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Did you even look at the link I posted and compared it to yours? I also have Ontarget and another one on my computer and have played these scenerios over and over, as well as testing them with 4 different bows, dozens of different arrows and at ranges out to 80 yards.
I would take the time to use some better software to show the differences, but I don't know if I want to waste my time. You simply don't care, you are never wrong. It is futile trying to explain something to you. You are right and the rest of us wrong even if we have better software and decades of experience to the contrary. Smartie Artie has probably forgotten more about archery than you think you know. I will say it again, our 13 year old autistic kid is easier to reason with. Paul |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: Paul L Mohr Did you even look at the link I posted and compared it to yours? I also have Ontarget and another one on my computer and have played these scenerios over and over, as well as testing them with 4 different bows, dozens of different arrows and at ranges out to 80 yards. I would take the time to use some better software to show the differences, but I don't know if I want to waste my time. You simply don't care, you are never wrong. It is futile trying to explain something to you. You are right and the rest of us wrong even if we have better software and decades of experience to the contrary. Smartie Artie has probably forgotten more about archery than you think you know. I will say it again, our 13 year old autistic kid is easier to reason with. Paul |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Yes, Paul - I looked at it. I mean, it does a good job of showing your speed degradation and energy loss downrange- but the trajectory numbers are useless, since you can't set the "zero" at any certain fixed distance. Here again, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue about or show me.
I'mtalking about trajectory,and you're telling me aboutenergy retention. 2 totally different things. I am not wrong. My numbers matched the OnTarget numbers that Archer58 ran... And they match my real-world testing. I don't know what else to tell ya. I'm sure it bothers you that my happy little chart is indeed correct (within an acceptable range) - but I can't change that. If you want, I can go back and edit the datareplace it with numbers that Irandomly pick from a hat- then that way you and Artie canfinally relax nowthat my happy little chartwillno longer beaccurate. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
 I should have paid attention in physics! |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
quicksilver, if ever we should meet face to face, I invite you to call me 'Artie' then. We'll see howinsolent anddisrespectfulyou are when you don't have a computer screen and hundreds of miles between us. Until then, you're on my ignore list. You earned it.
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RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
"Wow, that escalated quickly. I think Brick killed aguy."
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RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Fran what's up,
You have been way more obnoxious than normal. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: Arthur P Until then, you're on my ignore list. |
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
WellI must say thanks guys for putting all that info out there guys. The math checks of course but there were a couple variables out there which were brought up that I had not thought of on an idividual bow level. The math doesn't lie but it can be very deceptive when it is overly simplified (as in the charts). That is coming from a math minor and an engineer also.
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RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver Yes, Tfox, but if you're playing thosegames with the trajectory - you'd behunting with a bow that hits over 3" hot inside 20 yards (where most actual hunting shots are taken, for me at least). I'll admit that if you fudge your zero out to 27 yds,your trajectoryisn't so bad at 310 (that's still smokin', as far as hunting setups go), but as you drop down under 275, you start to see the numbers getting out of whack pretty fast. I never said that you had a "bad" trajectory. I just said that if you zero at 20 yards, this is what it will be. It is what it is. IMO, this is where a "hunter" and a "3d shooter" will butt heads.A competitive archer willalmost never take a 6-yard shot at a moving targetfrom a 25' platform, froze solid and running on 3 hours of sleep.They only shoot at non-moving styrofoam between15 and 39 yards... For you guys, one-pin 3+" high at 13 yards doesn't seem so bad. That's where a good 3d setup becomes a bad hunting setup. 3d guys set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 28 yard broadside black bear target) - and that's fair. Bowhunters set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 9 yard quartering buck - walking away - with 12 seconds to get the shot off - leaning away from the tree to get a clear lane).So, along those lines, I really don't think there's anything wrong with a one-pin hunter being zeroed at 20 yards. That's where most ofmy shotsare... So... It's only natural that we use that as my baseline in the field. You keep arguing with me here,but I'm not sure what you're arguing about. It is what it is. Every speed and trajectory has its own parabola. The slower it's going, the more drastic the curve. You can play all the games you want with where it's zero'ed, but it doesn't change the fact that the slower it's moving, the worse the trajectory becomes. __________________________________________________ _______________________________ Paul - this chart WILL tell you what the trajectory of any given bow will be. The shaft, fletchings, bow - do NOT matter. Newton's law of falling bodies. The difference between how THIS chart can be accurate, while the "drop speed calculator" will be off is simple: This calculator accounts for your zero and trajectory. The drop calculators just run a generic "9.8 meters per second squared" calculation - working backward from how far it fell, to attain "time in flight" and plugging in the yardage numbers to get a rough guess of speed. __________________________________________________ _______________________________ Burnie: I understand that the speed does degrade, and this chart doesn't account for it. But even if it did, the numbers wouldn't be all that much different. That's why I went out and confirmedmy ownballisticsunder "real world" conditions on my own. There are external factors that influence the numbers in both directions, and the result: it balances out fairly well. It's not exact, but it's as close as you're gonna get without wasting your life doing 30 pages of high-level physics. __________________________________________________ _______________ Just so we're all on the same page: A few pages ago, I was the village idiot for coming up with this ridiculous ballistics table. Now that you all have had time to play with your OnTarget software and pick at it - we realize now that the table is indeed correct? But, now we're just saying that my table is unrealistic, because nobody should be out there with just a 20-yard pin. I will respond to this and then read the rest of the responses,at 10 yards,you WANT to hit 2-3 inches high anyway for you to catch top of lung on near side and to catch bottom of lungs on the far side so with a 1 pin setup to be a little high at close ranges,you never have to hold high,you can always aim for center and never worry again about aiming for the exit. PLUS,I am finding your numbers a little inaccurate at close ranges because no where am I seeing a peep height setting,and that is a huge deal for close range shooting. AND,I have shot many targets at 1-10 yards at 3-d shoots.For some reason,the clubs still think they can fool the open shooters with this one.1 yard was shot for 73 on my last 3-d rig.:D If nothing else comes out of this thread,hopefully people start to understand more about arrow trajectory and drop per yard. |
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