4 dead deer none recovered
 

Well actually, I can only confirm that 2 of those 4 are dead somewhere in the woods but 4 deer total were shot this year by my inexperienced (even moreso than I) brother-in-law. 2 left medium flow blood trails that eventually disappeared. The other 2 were a single lung and flesh/gut shot. He is aChristian and yesthat hassomething to do with this situation becausehe is not supposed to be laying God's creatures to waste carelessly. And I say carelessly because it is exactly that! When I try to discuss what might've went wrong with his shots, he isn't so interestedand laughs it off with an "oh that aint the last deer in the woods" tone. Just as further indication of his carelessness and lack of respect for life, we found his bow to be hitting 5 inches right at 15 yards with his broken pendulum sight... and to me telling him to get that fixed his response was... "nah it's good 'nuff to kill a deer." Made me sick and I didn't wanna put a rift in the family so I quit talking about it with him.

The real reason why I bring this up is because I feel we as a hunting community don'tfocus nearly as much attention on shot placement as we should. There's alot of time being spent on recoveringmarginally hitanimals but it's obvious why. The rest of the time we are talking about ethics, equipment, antlers, or what have you.

From what I gather being here for a while, HuntingNet.com prides itself and tries to maintain an "ethical" or "responsible" image. Be that as it may, I reiterate that we don't put more focus where it is sorelyneeded. We have a post stickied that's titled "what to do after the shot". Well, I for one vouch for a sticky comprised of all our experience hereto betitled "what to do before the shot."

I'm a rookie yet and am still learning but it gets a little frustrating when you ask "what should I do in this particular shot situation" and what you get is essentially... "just aim for the vitals" -or- "aim for the exit." Well yeah, that's what I'm trying to do and it's easy on a broadside shot from 20 yards but where are those vitals when the animal is moderately or severely turned or quartered? Where are they when I'm 20 feet up and the deer is quartered 10 yards from my tree? What if the animal is turned and facing downhill on a grade? I was toldon here that you should"go for the lungs" on a deer that's 20ydsout andseverelyquartered awayby aiming to exit behind the far shoulder.. all the while being 30 feet up the tree! This has to be wrong 'cause I think you'll only get one lung which is the worst thing you can do. I harvested a button and a 10-pointer this year but they were relatively easy shots. I and others need to know what to do when it aint so easy.

Anyway, serious discussionwith clear anddetailed shot placement is one of the things we owe toour quarry, eachother, and the image of the site if we are as ethical as the number of policemen with night sticks running around here.

HTH

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

A single lung shot is a dead deer and a bullseye in my book. Obviously we want both lungs but a single lung is accepteable.Fact that it wasn't recovered isn't due to the shot. Always remember, the vitals are between the shoulder blades.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

As Paul tells us, we all fall short of the Glory. So putting the Christian comment in there really doens't mean much. Sometimes my witness is good, and others not so good. The good thing is if you believe, Jesus Christ blood is strong enough to cover all of our sins.


Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

A single lunged deer can travel well over 10 miles and generally does.
A large percentage of one lunged deer survive.
I had seen plenty of deer one lunged and walking about within the week.
I have also seen lots of kills where the scaring on the lung is very visible and the cause obvious.

This year I have seen three deer that were one lunged and then taken within two weeks after the fact during cull hunts.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Well learn something new everyday. I have personally never in 15 years of hunting whitetail deer only with the bow, have I ever seen a deer shot thru one lung survive, ever. Notice I said thru. Nick the outer edge, maybe, but thru? But if you say you have personally witnessed this, then I believe I guess. As far as travelling 10 miles, a severely injured deer doesn't generally roam too far. Were they pushed? Why if they were questionable shots?

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I call BS on a single lung deer surviving. And when did religion matter in bowhunting?

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Before two years ago, I would be with ya on this one. But personally witnessed a person shooting a deer, and finding one lung, totally gone from a shoulder shot. It was pretty gross, and had alot of puss in his body. But we know for sure, his father shot it 2 months before. He patterned the deer pretty good, and caught it on camera a few times before and after the hit. I just can't believe it lived for a long time after that.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Single lung hit deer can and do survive. Even double lunged hit deer if conditions are right. I will quote once again a study done in the book by John Jeanenney Tracking Dogs for Finding Wounded Game, they show pictures of lungs with broadhead scar tissue, the doe was in fact double lunged, lived and heeled.

And what, you don't give thanks?

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Yah I give thanks, to my grandfather and father for teaching me to hunt and fish. I also don't believe in the use of dogs for any part of deer hunting. This is just my opinion. In my expirience I have never seen a lung shot deer survive.

Back on subject, your brother in law needs to take more resonsibility in the harvesting of animals or find a new hobby.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Lmao! Yes a single lung hitdeer can survive, its been proven by people on here from time to time! But you say they generaly travelwell over 10 miles and a high percentage survive a one lung shot? I've heard it all now!!! 9 times out of 10 a one lunghitwill knock em down just fine. I've been on many many bloodtrails through out the yearsand i've seen 1 one lung deer live till the next day soit can happen but not very often. Heck i've seen elk, moose, bear, go 200 yards and fold up on a 1 lung hit and these animals have alot bigger lung capacity then a deer! I'm guessing the deer your talking about were never even lung shots, just a good excuse to blame the problem somewhere else!

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

This oughta get good.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

No way!! Sure there is an exception to every rule, but saying that "large percentage....survive", BS!!!

"A single lung hit deer can travel 10 miles and usually do" come on! The average range of a whitetail is 1 square mile! Sure there are exceptions but it's not happening much.

Most single lung hit deer are DEAD!!!

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Eeeeks! This was supposed to be in attempt to raise awareness that we should be educating new bowhunters and probably even "old" bowhunters on proper shot placement, not a discussion about how long single lunged deer can live! I guess it just goes to prove that more education is needed because so far we've already got someone saying that a single lung is a bullseye. I've probably killed and recovered 2 dozen of my own deerto dateand none of them have had only a single lung hit.

And yes, if you are a "christian" then christianity has everything to do with bowhunting. I don't everremember the good book saying that it was ok to carelessly fling sharp projectiles at living creatures then let them die a horrible death after you've left the woods and told yourself "ahh he'll live, ok I feel better now."

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

HH... I agree with you and I share your frustration.... even anger. If you can't be disciplined enough to make a clean shot. HANG UP YOUR BOW...until you get enough practice. I skipped my first year of bow hunting because I didn't feel I was consistent enough.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Using a tracking dog to find downed deer that would otherwise go unrecovered is not only moral but ethical. Your experience doesn't cover all the 100's of thousands of deer that are shot every year. When it comes to nature, especially whitetails, I don't take anything for granted.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Kudos! More should learn from your example.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Nope, not at all Christianity is about how much you Love God Almight. The rest falls in place. Using it now to prove your point is probably in bad taste.

Matthew 22
37Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I don't think you think it's ok to lay God's creatures to waste right?

Loving almighty God means loving and respecting all his creatures too. I'm confused as to where you stand with this.

And no, using Christianity to prove my point is not in bad taste. Why should I not hold someone to their beliefs at a time where their beliefs should shine through most?

For example if someone is a deacon at a church but has extramarital affairs, is it not fair for me to hold them to their religion that doesn't condone affairs?

By the same token, if you go to church on Sunday and preach love almighty god and don't kill for pleasure, then the following saturday go out into the woods and start flinging arrows carelessly at his creatures with a crooked bow, is that not hypocrisy in form? I dont' know what debate you have with me but that's all I'm saying.

REWIND FOLKS!!!

All I'm really saying is that we should comprise info on what preparation has to be taken before flinging arrows at critters. Yes, I know it's every hunter's responsibility to know what he's doing before he does it in the woods but honestly, you know and I know thatbetter than 90% of new bowhunters don't and just think they do. Making this information readily available on this website would not only paint us in a better light to the general public but could also result in less "bad shot what should I do" posts.

Talk about good intentions gone bad geeez.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I don't have problems with anything you say until you mentioned the whole Christian thing. We all are sinners. We all do wrong in God's eyes. You, I, everybody, we all fall short. Who knows maybe God might see something you and I doing as much worse. Maybe he might care less about the deer, but wonder why you and I wasn't out feeding the poor.

Sure, its wrong to fling arrows everywhere. Also maybe wrong to use God's wordbecause of your frustatration with your friend.

People know where to hit deer. Some people just don't want thier nose shoved in it when they screw up.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I'm sure I'm going to piss people off, but just leave the whole religion thing out. Go to a religion forum and have fun, let's talk bowhunting here. valid topic of discussion for any level of hunter. so to your comment... I say......don't shoot. there's your shot placement.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Exactly.

Hoytail,
Your b-i-l sounds like only half a bowhunter. I would think for the sheer hope of recovering a good animal he would have more sense when it comes to his equipment. If his attitude is what you sat it is......run over his bow by ACCIDENT, He shouldn't be in the woods.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

That's what I'm talking about! I want there to be a "shot placement 101" that new or inexperienced bowhunters can refer to. Some of this stuff that may seem like no-brainers to you guys might seem like good ideas to a newbie.

I'm a fairly inexperienced bowhunter as previously disclosed and though I've taken a nubby, a 7, and a 10 with my bow, I consider myself to know very little. This year I lost a doe on a 20ft up and 9yd out moderately quartering away shot. I felt horrible because in my inexperienced mind I was putting the arrowwhere it needed to be (behind the shoulder so that it would exit low in the brisket). After further discussion with board members, it turns out that I should've aimed a whole foot further back. This lost deer was due to me thinking I knew what I was doing when in fact I didn't know jack about that particular shot situation.

I just want a resource, a reference, a rough guideline or whatever you wanna call it for new or inexperienced hunters like myself so we'll have less of those "uh oh" posts.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Got a little carried away, sorry.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

And shame on anybody that goes into the woods with the intent to kill any animal and is not as educated as he or she could possibly be on anatomy and shot placement and not equipped with the best possible equipment to get the job done. That in itself should be grounds for losing hunting privelegdes for life, along with jail time, as well as being down right irresponsible and unethical. End of story.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Didn't you see thisreply I postedon the otherpost you named where to aim?Its alot easier to show someone in person then trying totell them onhere!!!! Go to a local sportsman's shop or hunting store and have someone explain to you where to aim on certain shots and when not to shoot on certain angles. It will make alot more sense for you that way!

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Dude you got the wrong guy man. I never said nothing about 10 mile tracking adventures. I don't even think anyone said they had 10 mile tracking adventures. They just said a single lunged deer can go 10 miles.

p.s. I don't have all knowing wisdom. If I did, it wouldn't make sense that I post asking for help for inexperienced bowhunters like myself.

p.p.s. If you've been hunting 15yrs, why did you think a single lunged deer is a bullseye? See, nobody is above education, myself first.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

but up until today you thought a single lung shot placed deer was a bullseye? You weren't looking at who was typing what, and now you're not looking at what you're typing yourself.

I'm done, I think those of you who didn't get all upset at me for what I don't really know, understand I just wanted some reference material.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

fact of the matter: if you love the sport and the animal you will practice until you are comfortable, consistent and confident......and then you will practice some more!

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

A single lunged deer can travel well over 10 miles and generally does.
A large percentage of one lunged deer survive.
I had seen plenty of deer one lunged and walking about within the week.
I have also seen lots of kills where the scaring on the lung is very visible and the cause obvious.

I Strongy disagree that a single lunged deer can run over 10 miles and generaly does. I know that in rare cases it can, but general BS. The deer to the left was a one lung hit and ran 40 yards to the bottom of a hill and died. If you had a hole in your lung could you run for more than 10 miles?

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Sorry, still learning how to work site.



I Strongy disagree that a single lunged deer can run over 10 miles and generaly does. I know that in rare cases it can, but general BS. The deer to the left was a one lung hit and ran 40 yards to the bottom of a hill and died. If you had a hole in your lung could you run for more than 10 miles?

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Can't we all just get along.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I personally feel that this was a good topic that people ignored. He didnt want to start contraversy, he just want to raise awareness. I think the whol point of his topic was clearly missed. However if you check out the home page of the web site and click on the bowhunting link there is a link that has when to shoot and when not to shoot for several situations. Might be helpfull.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Hoytail: Good topic. I think this thread has more to do with a hunters attitude than shot placement and one lungers. I started bowhunting for deer in 1962, so you can assume that I am fairly experienced. I look at myself as one of the best trackers I have ever known. In my younger years I have even been known to kill a buck running at 70 yards. My most leathal kill was a skip shot that hit the animals lower rear calf. He went 35 yards, stopped and licked it until he bled to death. I have been very lucky until year before last. Until then my attitude was "if I can draw blood I can find him". Well, my attitude has changed and this year I didn't even draw my bow once because the right shot didn't present itself. Three poor shots in a row has changed my life forever, even though chances are all three bucks survived. I hope your brother-in-law will see the light and change like I did.All hunters go throughchangesas they gain hunting experience. At first you kill anything that walks, then your a meat hunter and then someday we all hope that we attain the level of sportsmanship that only themature animals are harvested. Hopefully your BIL will progress to a higher level sportsmanship before he makes all the coyotes fat in your forest.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Didn't mean it to sound so harsh.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I think that the topic was blown way out of proportion. I would take yer b-i-l's bow and hide it and tell him that if he doesn't care about what he is hunting for maybe he should hunt for something that he does care about. He sounds like a real a-hole to me. Shouldn't even be allowed to get a hunting license if ya ask me. Maybe they should start competency testing with yer bow be4 they issue a hunting license. I am sure that he would never get a license if they did that. I know competency testing is a little overboard but in this guys case it would save the lives of a few deer.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

um, yea......OK.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I've hunted with a guy like that and it is frustrating as hell. He simply doesn't care about the deer. He hardly ever practices, he bangs his bow, messes up his sights, and still goes out hunting. He's gut shot a deer, looked for a little while and then gone back hunting. I've specifically told him, "you do realize that with a bad shot like that, that deer is going to die a horrible painful death don't you". He just doesn't care. Then he doesn't understandwhy I won't let him hunt on property I have access too, unless he passes a basic accuracy test. (ie all gear on, 20 yard shot)

I think the religion angle was mentioned because the poster probably found it surprising that a heavily religious person would have very poor ethics in bowhunting. Kind of a paradox. But I'm old enough now that nothing really surprises me, and that just because somebody goes to church every week doesn't mean anything as to the type of character and integrity they actually have. Not knocking religion at all here as I go to church every week except during bow season... :-)

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

Fellas,

We're all on the same team here. All I was trying to do was raise a little awareness to the fact that perhaps we might be thought of as group in a better light if we took a pro-active approach at helping instill knowledge and ethics into our inexperienced or up and coming bowhunters. I don't think anyone's watching but if they were, I don't think the way we jump down eachother's throats paints us in any positive light. I don't know any of you personally but I do know for sure that most of you are more of a hunter than my bil and some of my friends. One guy I know said he doesn't care and that he'll shoot deer in the head if he has to. I refuse to go to the woods with him. PERIOD. This is a big part of the reason why I'm here on this forum. There is nothing that I can learn from those physically around me except how many precioushours I can waste looking for gut-shot deer while I could otherwise be on stand. Conversely, there is much I have learned here through the collective wisdom.

I have 2 kids and a wife and my time out therein the woods is very limited. My equipment is as top notch as I think my top notch can be at this point. I practice with my Vectrix regularly to make sure my shooting ability isas honed as possible. My bil and the like bring out the bow they probably drop regularly on the weekends for what I call "deer shooting." Some of them are family and friends so I don't push my views too much if at all on them for sake of the relationship. The only reason I picked at my bil's Christian background is because he has on more than one occasion preached it but then turns around and carelesslylays God's creatures to waste. I was born and raised Christian so I know that one of the commandmentsis "thou shall not kill." And yes, I know the implied meaning is that of killing other human beings. Implied yet from that though,is thou shall not recklessly take away life even that of animal form. I'll leave it at that.

The main reason I started this whole (wasn't supposed to be a debate) was because I know of 9 unrecovered deer this year just between 3 bowhunters/deer shooters. One of those lost deer was mine that I described. (For the guy who came up with fancy biblical proverbs and said I was pointing fingers but later deleted his post... yes, I was pointing fingers but also equally at myself) Anyway, I hit my intended mark but later learned it was sooooo not supposed to be the mark for that particular shot scenario. After whoopin myself silly, Ibegan a quest for self-improvement. I studied many deer anatomy photos and imagined arrow paths for various shot scenarios. Since then, I've harvested a button buck and a 4 1/2 yr old 250lb 10 pointer with fairly speedy expirations. I am glad for whoopin myself silly over my one bad shot because 2 good shots followed as a result. This baby step in my maturation as a bowhunter(the way the definition should read) is what I wanted to contribute to those who have just taken up this love we all have.

As a token of my appreciation for the collective wisdom I've been graced with here on this forum, I will start a new thread where you can add your experience post by post. The focus of the thread will be "what to do before the shot." This will encompass everything that one can do to prepare him or herself for a safe, responsible, ethical, and successful hunt.

As a wise man once said, you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. The solution or goal here is instilling the right things into the new or inexperienced or even those humble enough to accept a refresher.

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

link below:

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2460593&mpage=1&key=&#246059 3

RE: 4 dead deer none recovered
 

I want to apologize to hoyttailhunter for lumping the ten mile tracking comment in on him. I know it was not him who said it. But I still call BS on it. And sorry Hoyttail, I have and still do consider a one lung pass thru a bullseye since I have never had a deer mortally wounded in this manner go further than I could find it. Once again, I will reiterate that double lung is the objective, but one is as good as done. At least it has been for me. I did fire off the cuff too quickly and tried to edit it as fast as I could, it was not meant to be so harsh.