The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I took (from what I've witnessed) what I think to be the dominant buck from my deer herd, ysterday. I know my friend Chris (MOTOWNHONKEY) was talking with someone (GregH?) about what this might do to the herd dynamics. If you guys see this....or if any of you other guys care to add your thoughts (We have WAY too many successful mature buck hunters in here to name them all.....I just was intrigued to hear about this, a while back)...I'd love to hear what you think may occur with other bucks in the area. Will a new guy try to move in? Will a subordinate step up? How long before everybody realizes he's "gone"? What about breeding?

This intrigues me a LOT. I'd love to learn about what really occurs when he's no longer there.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

First off, his scent will now be gone from the woods. Deer individualize other deer by smell, not by sight. Like with a dog thats king of the neighborhood until he gets hit by a car. You're buck or say the buck I killed offof a particularmountain acouple weeksago could both be the dominate in the area. Or at least one of the breeder bucks.

Sometimes the biggest boy with the biggest rack isnt the dominate breeder either...

Jeff, what I have seen when I take abig buck out of an area, and I have taken the biggest/oldestbuck on a mountain that I knew of ..........off of it 4 different times. In little time, especially if the rut is still coming,at least one otherbig matuebuck will move in on the does the big breeder had been tending too in the past. New contenders are always trying to get a piece of the action anyway...so yes a new buck will move in...if there is on in smelling distance of those does...Will they stay there and live right were your big buck died...after they breed the does in there, I doubt it since they probably have a nice little safe haven they already call home. On the other hand, by the following summers after I have killed amature buck off of a core feeding/bedding area. I ALWAYS see a new big buck that has moved into where my killed bucks had once eaten and spent a lot of time in the summers. I rarely find NEW big buck sheds though in a recent BIG BUCKs that I killed core areas that first winter right after..hardly ever....not until a full year has passed..does that make sense...?...I have never had a spot go dry from taking a dominate buck off of it either..by the next season at least one big boys moves in or at least a 3.5 year old shows up.... one that has the looks to be a contender for upcomingbreeding.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Shed:

I really never see bucks until after the Summer feeding patterns are well over and they're on the mast crops. Or.....I never really see bucks until the seeking phase. I've always attributed that to the food.....but who knows. I know they frequent my mineral site......but other than that.....I hardly EVER see a buck of ANY age in my woods.

I'm just intrigued to know what happens when any buck is taken out of the herd......and especially intrigued when the potnetial (or actual) dominant buck is removed.

Thanks for your reply, Troy. "Maybe" all of this info. will come in handy in my future hunting endeavors;).

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Jeff I think you can contribute not seeing any/many bucks in your area until later on in the year to the summer vs. winter "home" area. (Good news for you since hunting season is during their "winter".)

Deer will have a primary summer home and also a primary winter home. Sounds like you have the winter home tied up.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I witnessed some dominance activity lastnight as well. I wasnt in the stand for more than 20 minutes when all of a sudden I had a buck run past me. An average 6 pointer, he went north all of a sudden I heard a battle, no more than 45 seconds the big 10 pointer chased out the average 6 and he walks away while the big 10 heads back to his territory. A shortwhile after I heard another battle and again the 10 pointer chases out another smaller buck. Again, shortwhile after that, i hear another battle, and this time the 10 pointer follows the big 8 or 9 pointer to a small clearing about 45-50 yards from me and a battle proceeds. They fought back and forth for a good 20 minutes off and on untill the bnig 8 got the best of the big 10. Meanwhile this is all going on, I had a small yearling right out infront of me the entire time, she wasnt bothered or interested one bit in the battle of dominance. I had intended on taking pictures and posting them but dumbbutt me left the camera in my car. Im not sure if I would have been able to take any anyways I was so caught up in the moment and was so intriegued with the battle of dominance. I have never seen such a show with my own eyes like this that hasnt been on tv or video. I guess it just goes to show that the bigger the antlers the harder they fall. That nice 8-9 pointer litterly lifted the brute of a 10 right up in the air and kinda tossed him aside like a rag doll. :D. Im hoping that both of these bucks will be around on the 17th becasue I have some federal fusions that have their names on them. :D.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Keith (farm)....

If that's true.....I sure didn't know that. I always thought they had ONE home range. I'd like to hear more about this. I guess you're saying they "range" where the food is. Is this something I should have known??...lol

I knew they showed up here about now.....but just thought they were ranging further and further from their bedding areas to feed.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

If you mean now, as in November, This is very similar to where I hunt. I seea lot of does all year long but rarely a buck. Many does bed on the property I hunt and right about this time the bucks show up! It's the rut! They're out trolling for the does. I suspect your property is in a similar situation.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I know that whereI hunt up around Sauratown Mountain that the deer range up on the mountain all spring/summer long and when autumn nears they move down towards the foothills (more food). By the time mid Nov rolls around they are at my stand and remain there until the spring.I've noticed this is true in all of the areas I hunt unless food, water, and shelter are plentify year round, then they stay within that area year round. Deer migrate by nature anyway.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I guess I don't understand what the mystery is. A buck will take over, maybe a subordinate, maybe someone from fringe property.

If that second buck in your trail-cam pic is a local, which I believe he is, since it was a summer picture. He may very well be the dominant buck and the "Bull" was just hanging on his coat-tails.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Check the date. That photo was from '06. That buck has never been sighted. I saw the buck I killed last year WITH the buck I killed this year...and there was NO question who was the dominant buck of the two.

No real "mystery"? I'm just betting there's more to it than just......"another buck takes over".

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Well Jeff, probably what will happen is not your place will be overrun by scrub bucks, cause now they will go and impregnate all the doe, and hopefully this guy got his seed out and hopefully it wasn't on a doe that you already shot.

Just joking jeff, in a healthy herd, someone else will move in. Bucks travel for miles for a hot doe.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

From everything i have read it does not take long at all for the other deer to realize he is gone and a new one takes over quickly.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Wholeheartedly agree with Shed. Remember that in the rut and even post rut that sometimes we see bucks that don't frequent the area and that is part of the reason we never see such bucks at other times of the year. Thats why I love the rut, sometimes another dominant buck from another area shows up looking for "strange".;)

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

It's all about the herd dynamics in the surrounding lots.

If you have a neighboring parcel that has a stud buck locking down all the estrous does, the larger subdominants from that parcel will troll the neighboring lots for stragglers, because their efforts in their home range are being thwarted. I call these bucks "satellite bucks," because they startpatrolling a larger radiusoutside their home range once the breeding activitybegins. Generally speaking, they're big enough totangle with the big dogs, and may step up to challenge him, but usually they wind up being pushed around and ultimately jilted.

Thebig dogsalready know where they're going. They will not be displaced, and they have a big doe herd ready and waiting.

The satellites are the guys who are left traveling afar, looking for an available doe that isn't tied up by a bigger deer.

These satellite bucks willeventually invade your woodlot and quickly realize that the throne is empty - at which point they will make themselves readily available to any receptive doe.

To what extent they "stay" there to live out the end of their days... I don't know.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

A buck will only be with one doe at a time, so it is not like this guy impregnated every doe in your area. Every buck is certain that he is the dominant buck until someone bigger shows up in his immediate vicinity. They are not like a pack of wolves where there is a prescribed pecking order. If a 1.5 year old buck is the most aggressive buck around at any given moment, then he will be the one chasing the hot doe.

In short, nothing is going to change. The deer won't really even know he is gone. They are going to just keep doing what they have been doing; trying to eat and breed. The only difference at all is that he will not be pushing a few smaller bucks off does throughout the year, but the dynamics of the woods will remain the same it has been forever.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I have a "sattelite" buck's dream come true in my woods, right now. It "should" be a treat to watch when Rob's here in a week.;) I haven't seen anything bigger than a 1.5 yr old, other than the buck I took.....and I don't have any reason to think all the younger bucks from last year aren't "around".

We could literally see "anything".:)

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

THAT right there is exactly right ...... there is your answer

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

PT...BC....I was more wondering if a "traveler" buck might take up residence with the herd, here....now that the "I'll kick you ass" buck isn't around?????

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Generally the travelling bucks will just come in and hang out for a while, but for the most part they will return to their home range once they are done playing with the girls. Whatcould alsohappen is that the smaller bucks will continue to live there and develop into mature bucks in a few years. OR there is just another big john hanging around living on your ground they you have never witnessed. Point of this big long story is that there are so many scenarios that you will never really know whats going to happen untill it happens. Deer are deer, they will do what they want!

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I am by no means an expert here, but I would imagine that he would tend too .... as long as the essentials were met ..... food,secure bedding areas .... etc. why would he move? Year after year those honey holes always seem to attract deer ...... we knowwhat areasto push when the hunting pressure gets heavy to get the deer moving ..... same with big bucks, it seems ..... rub lines being used by another buck .... scrape lines ..... etc

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Wow, do alot of you guys honestly see the major "home range" areas as defined as what your posts portray? I just don't see these scenarios play out in real life. I don't see territorial battles occuring at all, usually the bucks just seem to be roaming and they hangout wherever they find themselves. For instance, last year I had several 3.5 year old bucks on my property, in the early fall the bucks broke out of their bachelor groups and started doing their own thing. I got pictures of these same bucks on a few different properties in the area, but it was always changing as to which buck was on that property. It wasn't as though these bucks picked out "their" spot and stayed their guarding it, they just seemed to hang out wherever they ended up that day.

As far as what happens after a mature buck is killed...I have killed two bucks that were both aged over 6.5 years old and two bucks that were 3.5 years old. I honestly didn't notice any real differance, I didn't see bucks moving in to that area, time just seemed to go on the same as if the mature bucks were there.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I admittedly know NOTHING about this subject. I just remember a conversation that involved MOTOWN and a couple others that was fascinating. I was "wondering" if maybe subordinate bucks didn't frequent a certain area .....knowing the dominant buck is usually there. I know from what I've witnessed that they high tail it when they see a bigger/more dominantbuck approaching (also limited experiencs with this).

I wondered if they'd maybe switch home ranges if an "opening" developed :D. I have no idea....[&:]

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

The home range of a normal whitetail is 640 acres (1 sq mi). That is their home range, not their territory, aterritory is a defended piece of land. Bucks do not fight for land but rather for does and who get to breed first. Furthermore, it is also possible for home ranges to overlap one another. Once one of the dominant bucks is removed from the herd it would only make sence that the other bucks will pick up the slack and establish a new order of dominance. Though you may not see more movement you would see different bucks moving with more confidence, and as eairler stated, the dominant buck is not always the biggest. This would mean that it is entirely possible to see 'new' big bucks on your land once the dominant one is killed.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Jeff, i agreewith what most have said, you arent going to see a change at all. The rest of the herd is going to go about its business like they do all the time. The only difference is the smaller bucks wont be chased around as often by the "bull".
I would also mention that just cause you arent seeing anything over 1.5 years of age, doesnt mean they arent there. I also wouldnt find it hard to believe that there wasnt a deer or 2 or 3, that were larger and more dominant that the bull on the poperty you hunt. Just look at how many times you hear about people putting out trail cameras only to find a monster that they have never seen before. It sounds like your poperty and the neighboring property has great habitat. There has to be a pope and young or 2 running around.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

nj....that's a stance that indefensible. I can't say there "isn't" another buck ou there....and you can't prove there "is". I have NO DOUBTS there are more and older deer than 1.5 yr olds out there. I saw them last year......too many of them for me to think that they didn't make it through the winter, spring, summer. I still believe wholeheartedly that there's some really nice deer on the property I hunt. I've documented this thought in previous threads. I saw a few good 1.5 yr olds last year that could be dnady's this year....and at least one 2.5 yr old that could be awesome. I also have a 3.5 yr old on trail cam that will outscore anything I've ever taken.

I have some more good deer on the property. I have no doubt of this.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

From my experience a dominant buck will travel miles to breed, but will always return to it's core! Once you take out the dominant buck from an area,any decentbuck that is not the dominant buck in his core area, could move permanently into the area where he has a chance to become the dominant buck!!

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I dont think you will see any difference. Sure each area has its dominate buck, but there is no way that he does all of the breeding for an area. If a doe is in heat and the dominate buck and a 1.5 year old buck are competing, yes the dominate gets her, but when a doe goes into heat, a buck stays with her for 24-48 hours, chasing other bucks away and breeding repeatedly. Welll during this time, other does are going into heat and this is where the less dominant bucks come into play. Figure the peak of the rut is 2 weeks long with majority of does in estrous during this time. Thats 14 days and if the dominant buck is with a doe for 48 hours, he's only breeding 7 does in the 2 week stretch. Unless you have very few deer in the area, that leaves alot of loving for all the other bucks. I think dominance really only comes into play for things liek preferred bedding areas, food sources, and competition for a doe if both bucks are free.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I can only speak of my experiances, in my area. Mature bucks, if they are 'dominant,' have home territory that is often over a mile in diameter (I have proof of this via trail cams, and other local hunters agree). Then, they have a 'core' area in the fall that is rarely bigger than 100 acres, and often much less. 'Core' areas do not overlap. Home territories often overlap. What I am getting at is it is not as simple as each 'dominant' buck dividing up the land as if they were people. Summer ranges and fall/winter ranges are often not the same. If you kill a 'dominant' buck out of his 'core area' then you probably will not have much luck there for 'dominant' bucks for at least a season. If you caught him in his 'home territory' then well, next week another 'dominant' buck might walk by.

I do not think dominant bucks just pick up and move to another area if they sense that their rival that they sometimes scentat one side of the rangeis gone, or nonexistant.

I also agree with the fact that while there are 'dominant' bucks, there is no hiarachy like wolves. The deer population(locally) is too high to allow that when you think about it. Deer are always comming into contact with new deer...

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Not really concerned that another dominant buck might transplant to the area.....as much as I am how the "new" dominant buck comes into being such. Is he there, already? Will a traveler move in?

It would "seem" that this would make for a VERY interesting rut.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

IMO opinion I dont think much will changeduring the rut. Deer will be tending, deer will be scrogging.[8D]

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I always figured a dominant buck would come in the area after you shot the big boy but i thought it would prolly be the following year. Well my brother shot a mature 11 pointer out of this small wooded area. Pretty much all the does were in these woods for a couple mile area. I was bummed and thought about pulling the stand and decided to wait a bit. It took a grand total of 3 days before another mature buck took over the trees and is already staying there with the does.
So yes, I do think that during the rut, another dominant buck will find the does if you shot the previous dominant breeder.

As for home ranges go, we have a 1000 acre farm that all summer long there are just a few does on...prolly around 10. As soon as late october hits, we can go out and see close to 60 deer. Including usually 3 to 4 mature bucks that were never there durring the summer months.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

As far as migration, where I grew up the deer would migrate ten miles or more out of the prairie hills down to the foothills.

When you kill the dominant buck I don't think much happens to the herd dynamics.

The deer establish a pecking order before the rut really heats up, usually without fighting. They just size one another up. They fight when one doesn't back down.

During the rut, they have a fight over a doe if the pecking order isn't firmly established or if the two particular bucks haven't met yet. Sometimes a doe will lead a buck quite a way from home.

It is not like the dominant buck breeds all the does and the other bucks go without. I saw a study that checked DNA of deer to determine which buck was the father. The vast majaority of bucks are fathered by mediocre sized deer, because there aren't enough monster bucks to breed all the does.

If a buck stays with a doe for up to 48 hours, there just isn't enough time during the rut for the big boy to get around to all the does.

What happens instead is first come first served. The doe may not stand right away, so when a small buck is chasing her around, they might attract the attention of a higher ranking buck, then he chases the smaller one off and breeds the doe unless another higher ranking buck shows up.

Each buck wants to be in an area where he ranks higher, so if he isn't one the the top dogs in his area, he might move to where he gets more does. I have heard of radio collared deer that will move miles from home during the rut, and return after.

In areas where a lot of bucks are killed, even yearling bucks get in on the breeding.

So if you kill the senior deer, most of the other bucks are probably to busy chasing does to notice.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

This is a good question.. but would require much debate and too much typing to answer..

But if you indeed took the dominant buck off your grounds it would do little to effect the herd. I know you have many does in your area, so the likely hood of this dominant buck breeding more than a couple does (maybe 6 at most) and that's if you did not shoot him.

So now.. maybe 6 does are bred by 6 different bucks instead of one. Does another dominant buck move in...? Most likely your answer will be NO. A buck who has the character of dominance will not just move into any land because another has left. Sure, he may for a short period of time to breed the does. But he'll likely return to his home range afterwards seeking terrain he knows and is comfortable in. A bucks number 1 goal is to survive!

However, if you do have land thats fit for a buck of high stature he will be inclined to 'move' in. But MORE than likely during the summer months and the antler growing season. I've seen time and time again that once a real good BUCK bedding area becomes vacant it is replaced within a short time by another buck of relatively the same stature.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

I also agree with much of what everyone else has said. I think #2 buck will take on the number one role in a short period. In your situation with that many does I would bet you have never seen a seriousbuck fight. I had the privelage of watching a #2 buck get and take control of the areaI was hunting. Over about a week and a half period I watched these to bucks go at it trying to kill each other. Finally the new commer broke the old dominant buck down. It litterally looked like the spirit of the previous dominant buck was broken. I watched him roam around all scared up like he didn't know what to do. With all the estrous that will be in the air in your area I have no doubt you will see new blood that will get you excited about next season.

RE: The Dominant buck....What happens?
 

Thanks, Chris. My luck....I'll see something that gets me excited.....about the time Rob arrows it.:D

j/k.....I hope he takes a NICE deer, here.;)

Thanks for all the replies. Stuff like this intrigues me.

And Chris....NO...I've never seen a buck fight. I've seen the youngsters sparring, but never an all out tussle.