Penetration Target Lies
 

One thing that bothered me w.r.t. to the earlier thread on penetration was the anecdotal evidence that light carbons penetrate better on targets than do heavier, and higher momentum, aluminums. I think that Joe Tapley, homepage.ntlworld.com/joetapley/target.htm, has the answer.

He shows that targets slow arrows primarily by grabbing the shaft. For this kind of a force, penetration does relate to KE - not momentum. Plus carbon arrows have a smaller diameter such that the force slowing them down is less than the force slowing down an aluminum arrow. So, for most commercial targets, extra momentum is little advantage and larger diameter is a big disadvantage.

For a deer, on the other hand, the broadhead cuts a hole for the shaft. The forces slowing down the arrow traveling through the deer are viscous forces - like a boat plowing through water - and cutting forces. For both of these the forces are proportional to velocity and the penetration is directly proportional to momentum.

Bottom line, as usual, no free lunch - those targets are lieing to us!

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

beprepen,

You seem to be the gospal for heavy arrows, and thats cool with me:)

Though I do not agree with you, I have in the past had many debates, and have done much of my own research on all the points of heavy and light that you have brought up.

Experience to me is 100 times more important that research. And I will tell you SPEED is a HUGE factor in penetration.

I will let you shoot my new DC Patriot with a 365 grn arrow into a brand new Tuff Buck 3d target. And when you see the point coming out the other side<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> you will be a believer<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I never imagined my penetration would increase by so much.

You keep preaching your fat arrows:) and when you see me in the woods bent over some red leaves and clumps of hair, with a gorilla grip in my hand trying to pull my little itty pitty bloody arrow from the core of the Earth, just keep on walking<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

There is alot more to penetration than the weight and diameter and speed of the arrow such as stiffness of the shaft, size of the head, number of blades, length of the arrow, number and length of fletching. All things above being equal a smaller diameter shaft will allways penetrate better than a larger diameter one due to less surface area and less friction. A stiffer arrow (carbons) will penetrate better than a weaker (aluminum) arrow due to the bending of the arrow when it makes contact with the target. A stiffer arrow transfers more energy into the target as opposed to the weaker one that will bend more when it hits a target. If you are shooting into the same target medium, whether an animal or target, the smaller, faster arrow will always out penetrate the heavier slower arrow provided they have the same KE. The fatter shaft (More surface area) will always generate more friction than the thinner arrow (Less surface area) no matter what you are shooting into. That is a fact and is indisputable.

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

It's been my experience that light arrows penetrate better through soft tissue like a hit right behind the shoulder on a deer. Heavy arrows penetrate better through thick muscle and bone like a shoulder shot. Speed kills. But if you ever smack a hard bone, you'll wish you were shooting big broomstick arrows.

&quot;Hey ya'll, watch this&quot;

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
beprepen,

You seem to be the gospal for heavy arrows, and thats cool with me:)

Though I do not agree with you, I have in the past had many debates, and have done much of my own research on all the points of heavy and light that you have brought up.

Experience to me is 100 times more important that research. And I will tell you SPEED is a HUGE factor in penetration.

I will let you shoot my new DC Patriot with a 365 grn arrow into a brand new Tuff Buck 3d target. And when you see the point coming out the other side<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> you will be a believer<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I never imagined my penetration would increase by so much.

You keep preaching your fat arrows:) and when you see me in the woods bent over some red leaves and clumps of hair, with a gorilla grip in my hand trying to pull my little itty pitty bloody arrow from the core of the Earth, just keep on walking<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I would like to shoot your dually.

It's probably just as well you don't shoot 9 grains per pound, it probably tears up the fletchings when they bury into the ground after a pass through!

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

After 38 years of shooting deer with bow equipment, from the largest wood shafts , the large aluminums, to overdraws with small aluminums, and now with carbons, I have to say the carbons will out penetrate. I also realize that the bows have gotten faster, but, all in all, those carbons smoke and I'm staying with them.

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...
If you are shooting into the same target medium, whether an animal or target, the smaller, faster arrow will always out penetrate the heavier slower arrow provided they have the same KE. ...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

bigbulls-
I am with you to this point. Take the extreme - shoot a laser beam with 75 foot pounds of KE. No penetration because the momentum is too low - of course, you can use one pin out to the moon which makes up for it somewhat. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

One thing to consisder when talking penetration in a foam target is the heat generated by a carbon arrow. Why do carbons need lube? Because the heat causes them to stick. I pull an arrow and it's usually still warm after a few minutes, and may have foam sticking to it. The heat is caused by friction, which more quickly slows the arrow. Yet the carbons still go in deeper, all things being equal.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

kodiackhuntmaster i hit deer in the shoulder with heavy aluminum arrows and the results came out with the arrow bent in a j with no penatration . a poor shot is a poor shot.

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

kodiackhuntmaster i hit deer in the shoulder with heavy aluminum arrows and the results came out with the arrow bent in a j with no penatration . a poor shot is a poor shot.

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For a deer, on the other hand, the broadhead cuts a hole for the shaft. The forces slowing down the arrow traveling through the deer are viscous forces - like a boat plowing through water - and cutting forces. For both of these the forces are proportional to velocity and the penetration is directly proportional to momentum.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Well that being said a narrower boat that is the same length, weighs exactly the same, with the exact same motor will run faster than a wider boat! So why wouldn't the arrow with less surface area do the same?

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Beprepn why dont you shoot a carbon and then an aluminum and come
back and report your findings. It seems you have your head in the
sand on this issue. Oh. before you shoot the carbon put a secondary
foam backstop behind your target. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

You know I sit back and snicker when I read these debates, the only way to ever prove which broadhead is better or which arrow is better is to clone about 5-6 thousand goats or sheep, this is to ensure they all are the same, shoot them in the exact same spot with the same bow from the exact same distance every time and you will have some true results to compare, until then we will argue! I do not care what you shoot into it will not accuratley emulate a living animal.

Up until the end of this season I shot a 20 year old bow with 20 year old aluminum arrows, with new broadheads and killed my first deer with one shot. I now have a bow that is far faster than my old one, it has not drawn first blood yet, I may switch to a heavier arrow if the old ones do not group well enough for me, but for now I will stick with aluminum simply because they do fine and are far less expensive.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Proud father of a Devil Dog

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Personally I shoot fairly heavy aluminums. Carbons are fine too, if that's what you like. IMO, it doesn't matter which I'm shooting.....the broadhead is cutting a good sized hole, and the shaft just follows through. Live animals aren't made of foam.
It becomes a point of how far in the ground do you want your arrow to stick, after the passthrough.

Taz is right....it's a never ending arguement, just like the fixed vs. mechanical debate....(fixed of course <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

beprepen, If you don't mind me asking what is your set up and how much KE are you getting?

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

beprepen,

Where did the lies come in? You seemed to supoort those so called lies by your own admission. Let me recap for you:

You implied that it was a lie that carbons pentrate further into a target and then you explained to us why carbons pentrate into a target better?<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Break Down

Your initail satement: Penetration Target Lies

Your Supporting Evidence that it is infact not a lie:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>He shows that targets slow arrows primarily by grabbing the shaft. For this kind of a force, penetration does relate to KE - not momentum. Plus carbon arrows have a smaller diameter such that the force slowing them down is less than the force slowing down an aluminum arrow. So, for most commercial targets, extra momentum is little advantage and larger diameter is a big disadvantage.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Am I missing something?


Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Answering all the questions:

I am pretty certain that going to a lighter arrow is almost always a small penalty in down range KE, a somewhat larger penalty in penetration, and a benefit in trajectory.

With modern compounds most of us have enough penetration that we can afford to trade some for a flatter trajectory - and we all do, nobody shoots 1200 grain arrows.

IMHO, carbons are a little better than aluminum. For equal weight, equal spine arrows, the smaller O.D. of carbon arrows is an advantage - how big, I don't know.

For penetrating targets, the smaller O.D. of carbons is usually a big advantage. That's the lie that the target is telling - carbons will not have the same advantage on a deer.

I shoot 602 grain arrows out of a 60# bow and have about 53.5 ft-lbs initial KE, or I did until a couple of weeks ago when I twisted a limb. I plan to replace my bow with a 70# bow and shoot heavy enough arrows that I get good flight out of fixed broadheads - probably about 560 grains to keep the speed below 250fps.

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

I don`t have a preference between carbons and aluminum....they both have their strong points.

I do have a question concerning beprepn`s last statement though.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I plan to replace my bow with a 70# bow and shoot heavy enough arrows that I get good flight out of fixed broadheads - probably about 560 grains to keep the speed below 250fps.

beprepn
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Does this mean that fixed blade heads such as my thunderhead 125gr. will not fly accurately at much higher speeds than 250fps?

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

I know my Magnus Stingers flying at 270 are deadly accurate. Maybe a little less forgiving to form flaws than field points, but right there when I am.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

I prefer using carbons due to the fact they can take more abuse.And also I'd like to ask a ? to Beprepn.You said that a carbon will not pass thru a deer.Do you mean all carbons in general? Because my beman400 ics hunters Have passed thru deer,bear,and elk.at distances of 20 to 40 yards away.

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Just to make sure you guys know, I am not beprepn and beprepn is not me.

Beprepn, if you'll go back 5 or 6 months, you'll find this topic has been beat to death. These guys have been very kind to you so far. Certain individuals will turn extremely nasty if you keep it up. Believe me.

Forget trying to persuade them. Just accept that you have something to say that they don't want to hear and leave it at that.

Edited by - Arthur P on 01/13/2003 23:43:30

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

I had a bunch of questions for you but then I thouht why bother, I like my set up just fine, and it kills deer dead.

One thing kinda stuck in my head.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For penetrating targets, the smaller O.D. of carbons is usually a big advantage. That's the lie that the target is telling - carbons will not have the same advantage on a deer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Where did you get this from? I thought you were just getting back into bowhunting after 15 years, so you aren't basing this statement on your own experience right?

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Hi Arthur, good to see your words. All is well, I hope.
I don't think people are disputing that heavy arrows work, just stating that light arrows work, too. Nearly any well placed arrow gets the job done.
quote beprepn:
&quot;The forces slowing down the arrow traveling through the deer are viscous forces - like a boat plowing through water - and cutting forces. For both of these the forces are proportional to velocity and the penetration is directly proportional to momentum.&quot;
Doesn't more velocity mean more momentum? Momentum is retained energy, velocity and weight combined. I agree higher weight helps momentum, but higher velocity resists slowing as well. At normal hunting ranges, I see no real advantage to either. The advantage I see is what makes someone comfortable.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Hi back atcha, Phil. After the big aluminum vs carbon blowout some months ago, it became obvious I don't fit in with today's compound community so I went back to traditional. Been making selfbows, rescuing old recurves from yard sales and am just finishing up making my first glass laminated reflex/deflex longbow.

You're right. Velocity equals momentum just like weight equals momentum. A 600 gn cedar arrow flying out of my longbow at 180 fps carries 43 ft lbs of energy and has .4788 pound seconds of momentum. To equal that momentum a 350 gn arrow has to be flying 308 fps with 74 ft lbs.

That's 42% less arrow weight than I'm shooting, but taking 42% more speed and 42% more energy to get the same passthru I get with my slow ol' logs. So, Rack-attack is also correct when he says 'speed is a huge factor in penetration.' But he is also incorrect by forgetting to mention the fact that weight is also a huge factor. The less speed your bow is capable of generating, the huge-r role weight plays.

Just another comparison with momentum... My 580 gn aluminums fly 225 fps out of my round wheel ProTec. That's 65 ft lbs of energy and .5788 pound seconds for momentum. That 350 gn arrow would have to scream along at 373 fps and carry 108 ft lbs of energy to equal that much momentum.

Edited by - Arthur P on 01/14/2003 07:52:55

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Good luck with your new hobby. I suspect you still &quot;fit in&quot;. You just need more space.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Take care pal.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Arthur,

Could you send me an e-mail? I have some questions for you on your first effort at building a glass laminate bow.

Thanks!

Bill

[email protected]

Praise the Lord, He is worthy

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

AurturP, glad to see you back posting again!

I sure have missed reading your words of wisdom lately, and I know I`m not alone.

We don`t have to agree on everything to appreciate your point of view!

Stick around!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I do have a question concerning beprepn`s last statement though.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I plan to replace my bow with a 70# bow and shoot heavy enough arrows that I get good flight out of fixed broadheads - probably about 560 grains to keep the speed below 250fps.

beprepn
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Does this mean that fixed blade heads such as my thunderhead 125gr. will not fly accurately at much higher speeds than 250fps?

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I don't know. Others have suggested that mechanicals are better over 250fps. These discussions have convinced me that with a current technology bow, that we have some penetration to burn such that I'm willing to go a little lighter then I would have a month ago. 250fps seemed like a nice compromise. If I remember right, the thunderheads have a profile that looks like it would be unlikely to plane.

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I prefer using carbons due to the fact they can take more abuse.And also I'd like to ask a ? to Beprepn.You said that a carbon will not pass thru a deer.Do you mean all carbons in general? Because my beman400 ics hunters Have passed thru deer,bear,and elk.at distances of 20 to 40 yards away.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I'm sorry I was that unclear. On a good hit even with my 30 year old compound I would expect a pass through even with a relatively light arrow even if I hit a rib. What I've learned from the DB's is that I might even penetrate the spine with this setup. With a heavier arrow I'd have a better chance of penetrating the spine and I would pay for that with a shorter effective range.

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...
Beprepn, if you'll go back 5 or 6 months, you'll find this topic has been beat to death. These guys have been very kind to you so far. ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

The DB has been actively generous and I've learned quite a bit. My first thread was pretty badly stated.

You write much better than I do, though - well, you can never convince everybody.

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I had a bunch of questions for you but then I thouht why bother, I like my set up just fine, and it kills deer dead.

One thing kinda stuck in my head.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For penetrating targets, the smaller O.D. of carbons is usually a big advantage. That's the lie that the target is telling - carbons will not have the same advantage on a deer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Where did you get this from? I thought you were just getting back into bowhunting after 15 years, so you aren't basing this statement on your own experience right?


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

From these threads - the consensus seems to be that carbons bury deeper in targets even though they are lighter. This needs to be explained if one believes as I do that momentum is more directly related to penetration than is KE. Joe Tappely did the explaining.

beprepn

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Is KE not a component of momentum? As is speed. The harder something hits, the harder it is to slow down. The faster something moves, the harder it is to slow down. The more momentum something has, the harder it is to slow down. These pieces all work together. It merely comes down to how you go about accomplishing your goal. Quite honestly, I wish my arrows only penetrated about an inch into a target. They'd be much easier to pull.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Forget trying to persuade them. Just accept that you have something to say that they don't want to hear and leave it at that.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

That may very well be the wisest comment that I have ever seen posted!!!!!!!!!!!

beprepn,

Authur is absolutely correct!!! You should keep in mind that opinions are like *******. You have yours and I have mine and contrary to your beliefs most of us have thought about this in depth a time or two, before you ever cam along. Several of us have even done some pretty extensive field-testing over the last 15 years (while you were taking a hiatus) Most of us have done so for several years. That being said, you are not adding anything new or dynamic to this conversation. I am intelligent enough to think for myself. I even took a few physics classes back in college! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> In short, trying to convince the &quot;Light Carbon&quot; shooters here that they are wrong is an exercise in futility. You are preaching to the choir! I can shoot your weight and momentum theory to hell and back with the &quot;drinking straw propelled by the winds of a tornado example&quot;. The drinking straw has 1 ft pound of KE and probably very little momentum. The only thing it has is a 200 mph hour wind (which isn't but about 293 fps) behind it and the little straw with no momentum or weight can completely pentrate 2x4s and sometimes bury 3-6 inches deep into trees(seen that with my own two eyes). I still haven't heard a good explanation for that one. All of the heavy arrow advocates typically ignore that comment!

I have some video of me hitting a large Northern Indiana whitetail right in the heaviest part of the front shoulder with energy robbing spitfires and light carbons. The video also shows me pulling the arrow out of the ground from where it had burried up, after passing through both shoulders. It was a bad shot<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>. How exactly would aluminums have helped me??? The aluminum would have given off a great deal of it's momentum and KE through oscillation of the arrow(if it didn't bend). That would have helped my penetration how?????? You can only kill deer so dead. Heavy nor light arrows are going to make up for a lack of practice! If you hit them where you are supposed to either one of them will do the job! I have been out there shooting deer with both carbons and aluminums for the last 15 years and I have not found your ASSUMTION(since you haven't actually experienced it) that aluminums out penetrate carbons to be true in any case! To tell you the truth I haven't noticed enough differnce in penetration between the two to even warrant discussing the issue. I choose carbons because they are a tougher more efficient material. I get a little flatter trajectory and the differnce in noise and vibration is a moot point with the bow I shoot.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Where I draw the line with light arrow carbon shooters and say they are wrong is when they start spouting that their way is THE way. Like the peanut head on this very forum that told me once that I am UNETHICAL because I don't shoot carbon and mechanicals at least 270 fps!

Light and fast is only ONE way. Wood arrows out of selfbows is another. There are a whole bunch of ways in between and they all work. At least as long as the jerk on the string does what he's supposed to.

Everyone knows my preference and it ain't light and fast. It doesn't include releases and sights either, and rarely involves wheels on my limbs any more. Too much work involved in that stuff and I don't need ANY of it to consistently make clean killing shots on deer and hogs out to 25-30 yards anyway.

Until I find a carbon arrow that weighs out around 600 grains, doesn't cost a year's salary, doesn't take a team of mules to pull out of a target and flies straight with a good, sharp Magnus broadhead on it, it's wood and aluminum arrows for me.

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Arthur P, Something tells me your set-up works just fine don't it.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Silent,Your straw through a 2X4 made remember a story I read about a guy getting killed by uncooked spaghetti.He was in the kitchen when a tornado struck and the stuff went right through him.Killed him dead, I think it was a double lunger with alferdo sauce.

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Speed kills {accuracy that is} Thats a lie if you ask me I have a bow that shoots 290 and is deadly accurate with muzzys I think its the bow and the tune and of coarse form .

We all have different oppinions , if we did'nt the world would be a BORING place

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Silent... Tornado propelled straws... Phhbbbttt! I submit there is a great likelihood that the wood is twisted and the fibers pulled apart by the wind, the straw gets blown into the crack and the fibers close up on the straw when the wind passes.

How about the tornado propelled 2X4 that went through a brick wall, thru my brother's pillow, thru the mattress and box springs and gouged a divot in the concrete under the carpet? Same tornado took all the furniture out of the living room except for the coffee table, but left my tax refund check sitting on that coffee table under my mother's favorite ring. (It took every dam*ed thing else tho.) April 10, 1979. Wichita Falls, Tx.

Tornados do some wierd stuff, like sitting a slightly dirty pickup truck without a scratch on it in someone's second story bedroom. I've seen that one with my own eyes. So, I don't accept tornado propelled anything as any kind of convincing evidence. Too much stuff going on inside those monsters and too many variables. I'm much more impressed by your story of the double shoulder passthru.

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Arthur P,What about the uncooked spaghetti,that's kinda wild, true story.

RE: Penetration Target Lies
 

Like I said, tornados do all kinds of wierd things. The guy might have gotten slammed into the wall with a package of spaghetti between him and the wall, and got the stuff punched into him that way. I wouldn't just assume the wind blew it into him.

The straw stuck in the wood or the spaghetti killing a man stuff ranks right up there with the ping pong ball vs bowling ball momentum argument. Neither one applies to arrows.