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RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

krisken you are opening a can of worms that could really get messy!LOL even a trad bow is a machine, we as man are the ultimate predator because unlike animals we use our brain and not our braun to hunt. This has evolved over thousands of years. There are some right here that feel that a gun is not fair chase, go check out the trad forum, there are a few in thier that feel the compound is the work of Satan himself, and right here are folks that feel a crossbow is the devils work.

I personally draw the line at computors, but there are some people that feel the need for a GPS, I have never needed one, but then again I don't hunt any truely remote isolated areas either.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

I also don't feel that we have so unfair an advantage that it isn't fair chase. Look at how many people on this board have yet to get a deer after even 2 or three seasons (whether it be because of selectiveness or lack of oppertunity). You still have to get close to the critters for the gear to matter. Even with the tech advances we have had the last couple of decades, everyone here has been out foxed by Mr. Whitetail more than once.

THWACK!

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RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

God did not give us huge teeth and claws as well as animal like speed. However, he did give us a much more powerfull weapon, our brains. We use our brains to create products to help us harvest animals. Seems like fair chase to me.

Hunt the thickets

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

You mention both fair chance and fair chase. Two different things. The only way to give them fair chance would be to somehow equip them with guns and allow them to shoot back at us. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

But I see your point. Outide of machines such as the rangefinder, we are pretty much hunting just the way the indians used to do it with our scent blocker camo, carbon/aluminum arrows, razor broadheads, fiber optics, climbers, etc., etc.:)

When stand hunting, a range finder is merely a convenience. When hunting animals such as elk where one may be required to set up quickly, the rangefinder allows the hunter to have confidence in knowing his effective range, allows him to make better shot placement and prevents him from shooting outside of his effective range. A large bull elk at 60 yards looks a lot closer to those of us that are only lucky enough to get to hunt them 5-7 days per year and may only actually get into elk once during that time. A range finder helps us be more ethical, not less, and has nothing to do with fair chase. Just my opinion.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

I agree with Belle Island. If animals were hunting us, and we had no machines (bows, arrows, etc), would you call that fair chase? Humans could not survive without our brains, unless you think you can out run a cheetah, a bear, a cougar and other predators. Our brains are ou weapons.....and we are just making good use of them.

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RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Krisken, Oh no!! Pull up a seat cause this could real interesting. LOL. JERRY

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Gadgets do not make hunting more or less ethical in my opinion. You said in your original post that an argument could be made that a rangefinder could be veiwed as MORE ETHICAL, and I'd agree it could, because they could offer better shot placement. Now if we were talking about putting a radio collar on a deer, and &quot;tracking it&quot; to hunt it down, then there would be a line that was crossed.

I understand your point, that &quot;where is the line drawn&quot;. However, an ethical hunt lies in the hands of the individual hunter, and if you feel a rangefinder is unethical, do not use one. If your bow is a &quot;killing machine&quot; in your eyes, switch to a more traditional bow, or a longbow. Limit your shots to only quartering away, etc.

Still, if you botch a shot at a deer and wound it with equipment that is more &quot;traditional&quot;, you are faced with your own ethical dilema once again, would it have been more ethical to hunt with a more proficient weapon? No one is going to fine you, no one is even going to hold you accoutable. Thats the way it should be, and that is why ethics & law are not the same.

Ultimately, each individual settles on their own code of ethics. Personally, I say hunt legal, hunt for the enjoyment, hunt safe, and do not worry so much about the details of an ethical hunt - If you subscribe to these three fundementals - the ethics of the hunt will be set. In otherwords, .... if hunting in a manner, or with a peice of equipment is 1. legal, 2. enjoyable to you, or 3. safe - then then for you, the hunt is ethical.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Well, they're animals and there's nothing &quot;wrong&quot; with killing them any way you want...be it with a bow, a gun, or a slaughter house guillatine, as long it falls within the confines of the law so as not to cheat others out of having an equal crack at taking game.

But...&quot;At what point do I lessen the hunt?&quot;...the experience, the challenge...the reward. Every hunter has to decide what suits him, and at what point (if any) he feels he is cheating himself out a greater challenge or experience.

Some are happy with rifles. Others are content with the latest MQ-OU812 decked out with all the bells and whistles. Others don't feel challenged until they've got a recurve and aluminum arrows in their hand. Still others (me) prefer selfwood bows and doweled wooden arrows with steel points, 1920's style. A few don't feel alive unless they're using rawhide bowstrings and dogwood shoot arrows with sinew wrapped fletches and hafted stone points. (Ya ever make a set of well matched arrows from natural plant material, by the way? It's a real exercise. Makes you appreciate them a whoooole lot more than any pre-fab carbon on the market.)

I pondered that question for years shooting compounds. It's funny that you question laser rangefinders as an example of what may be too much technology. It was while pondering the decision to buy one years ago that I had a sudden revelation of, &quot;Just what am I doing? What do I really want out of bowhunting?&quot; I decided rangefinders and technology weren't it. I had been thinking of trying traditional for a while, but I remember the &quot;rangefinder moment&quot; as being the straw that broke the camel's back, prompting me impart a greater use of &quot;myself&quot; into hunting and to accept whatever limitations might be brought by not taking advantage of technology. That was my own choice, however, and if others enjoy the advantage of a rangefinder, that's great too.

The &quot;where to draw a line&quot; decision is personal, BUT it's also one that you MAY want others to follow as well. If you don't find baiting appealing for example, you may not want it to be legal for Billy Bob to pile up a mountain of corn in the adjacent back 40. There's a delicate balance act to be performed of what you want to do, and what you may or may not want others to do, while trying not to alienate them.

Back to rangefinders...I don't have a problem with them, but they're not my cup of tea. [Caution: Worm can opening...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ] I do think there needs to be technological limits set on what can be used in various seasons though, so bowhunting remains bowhunting instead of turning into a game of &quot;laser tag&quot; or &quot;sit in your easy chair and push a button to remotely kill a deer&quot; 100 years from now...accurest, laser sights, gyroscopic stabilizers, speed (400fps mabey?) and similar cutting-edge and yet-to-come things that need to be nipped in the bud BEFORE they may become commonplace, so restricting them wouldn't alienate large groups of hunters already using them.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

All very good responses. I anticipate more.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

I'm a bowhunter.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

It is my sport. I don't do it to be sporting.
I don't do it to be ethical but I obey the laws. I do it to hear TWACK.
I do it to eat deer meat. I do it for the excitement. I don't do it to be fair. If it were suppose to be fair God wouldn't have given man the mind to make and use machines. If it were suppose to be fair or equal... I'd be able to hear, see and smell like a deer. It's not fair. I'm handicapped even with my compound, lazer rangefinder, camo, climber, scent lok. I need all the help I can get. OK, maybe I'm getting carried away... OK... maybe I take unfair advantage. BUT, I do love to hear TWACK. Tough.... I'm using all the crutches I want.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

I dont use much of the new stuff,Not that I'm against it,but it all cost to much. The highest tech. weapon today is the automobile. Both by accidental hits and believe it or not we have people around here that actually have a old vehicle with beefed up front ends and they drive around at night,They target the posted ,locked up areas to hunting which has a high deer pop.Their reasoning is them idiots wont allow hunting ,so we will run them over.Here in Pa all you have to do is call the PGC and tell them you hit a deer.They send you a permit for the deer in the mail.You are suppose to send them the antlers or pay 10 dollars a point if you want to keep it.Thats what happened to the piebald I was hunting.Now thats modern tech that is being used by the slobs around here.So I don think I would worry about range finders,super duper bows and etc.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Krisken, If you're thinking of hunting with tradtional bows, don't be scared for a minute about their ability to send an arrow hard enough to kill deer. When properly spined, moderate weight arrows and cut-on-contact broadheads are used, broadside passthroughs are quite normal with a 50-55# recurve. As with any weapon, the key is taking only the shots you are confident you can pull off cleaning, and passing on the ones you don't. My own shooting confidence varies throughout the season depending on how much practice I've done and temp/weather conditions. I've passed on deer as close as 10 yds because for some reason the shot didn't feel right. On other occassions, I'll killed deer cleaning at distances to 30 yds. (Kills have been at 8, 9, 10, 18, 25, and 30 yds...all from the ground except the 8 and 25 yd-er from a treestand). Strangely, perhaps, I've actually taken more deer in the last 3 years of selfbow hunting than I did year to year with compounds.

Here's a picture a fellow selfbowyer posted on another forum. (He posted it to the public so I doubt he'd mind if I add a link here.) It's his Ohio buck from this year. The bow...a short, 46# osage &quot;sliver/pony bow&quot;. The arrow...a selfnocked cedar arrow with handmade steel &quot;trade point&quot;. His bow setup had enough energy to completely pass through the deer. He was able to pull it off because he waited for good, quartering away shot at 7 yards.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Oops, try again.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...55155606UPSynk

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Krisken, it does sound like you're a latent traditionalist. :) D

Deer have been killed by arrows out of simple wooden bows for at least 35,000 years. Wouldn't it would stand to reason that there have been far more deer killed by wood bows than all the compounds ever built? Used properly, they are a heck of a lot more effective than most people give them credit for.

I don't know about your original question. In a way, I think there are a lot of people using the gadgetry to make their hunting 'easier.' Manufacturers are definitely marketing the stuff to capitalize on humankind's inbred laziness, and that ticks me off. But, after using some of that stuff myself, I found that it actually put more limitations on me and caused more problems that had to be solved either by adding more gadgets or getting rid of the junk. I got rid of the junk. For instance, my 75% letoff bows, sights and mechanical releases were junked after my first time in the woods with them.

Ethics. Yep it's a can of worms. Used to be, most bowhunters accepted Pope and Young's rules of fair chase as their code of ethics and the manufacturers would not make non-compliant gear. But nowadays, those rules don't make it easy enough for a lot of people and the manufacturers found out they were missing out on easy money. So most people ignore P&Y's rules and say that as long as it's legal, then make up your own ethics. Isn't it odd though, when someone that doesn't want to be bothered with P&Y's rules screws up and shoots a monster deer, then gets all huffy when P&Y won't allow it in the book?

So, being the modern, politically correct man I am (sorry, couldn't say that and keep a straight face<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>), do what makes you happy. As long as a fellow bowhunter keeps it legal and isn't harming archery and bowhunting by doing it, that hunter is welcome at my campfire.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

I ask you this

is it fair that a pack of coyotes gang up on one deer or a 350 pound bear stomp on a tiny defenseless fawn a pack of lions going after a baby antelope?

no it is not fair but that is the circle of life we are predators just like any other carnivore out there the only difference is that we have a more developed brain and a conscience it is also not fair to round up chickens plop them on a conveyor belt and rip their head off or raise cattle to be mass slaughtered for the faint hearted who wish to believe that a piece of meat was born into a hamburger or a steak and was never in fact alive.

call me crazy if you will these are just some of my built up emotions after spending the holidays with my non-hunting relatives

now that I am done ranting to answer your question I think the use of certain devices like a rangefinder are good because they enable us to make a more ethical kill and minimize non lethal injuries to the animal there are certain items that cross the like but that is up the the indivual to decide i my self like stick to the basics i will use a compound bow and a rifle site and a rangefinder but much else seems to get in the way


Edited by - huntforlife on 01/04/2003 11:01:15

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RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

I'm really pleased to see that this thread didn't get ugly like I've seen it happen on sites. Including one from my own state. It says something about the people who visit HuntingNet.

Myself I have no problem with Modern equip. I began in the 70's with trad style equip. Tried to go back to it a couple years ago but just didn't get the same from it as I do with a compound. I don't look at equipment choice as an ethical issue. To me ethics is more in line with conduct. Shot choices, conduct when no ones looking, courtesy in the field. Things of that nature. Staying within the realem of your equip and your own ability while hunting I think is also part of ethics. I don't think equip. makes you any better of a hunter or any less. I don't see lazy or easy having anything to do with modern equip either. To me equip. choices are like chocolite and vanilla. Some equip. can aid in inhancing your ability while some can do nothing or worsten it. We owe it to the animals to be as efficient as humanly possile. As long as you draw in the presence of your game and you practice good ethics then your choice of equip is your own. That's what makes this sport what it is. It attracts a wide range of people and personalities. JERRY

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Krisken,

First off let me point out I am not a stickbow only type of bowhunter althought thats all I personally shoot....I am a bowhunter period and I've hunted with people shooting everything from rifles to a selfbow guy.

That said, let me quote something here. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>On the other hand...if I am useing machines to hunt,am I (not) giving the quarry fair chance?.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Look no farther then the Mech heads, releases or compound bows the majority of bowhunters are using today...these are all machines. Even to some degree my stickbows are a machine. The technology advances in even these, although they look the same they are vastly different, would lead me to believe they are nothing more then a &quot;lower grade&quot; if you will machine! Heck the releases, at one time called cluches, were around before Compounds were ever invented. Mech heads also!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>At what point do I become less of a skilled hunter?. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

This one is also a sore subject but one I bet I can have the founder of the P&Y club back me on after spending some time with him. Most of the bowhunting community has lost the skill of being a true hunter but have perfected the skill of being a killer! Look around, blood and socres are more important then anything else!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> At what point do I lessen the hunt?.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

That said, the hunt in itself is an individual decision. We are all out there for our own reasons. What you do to make or break the hunt, make it what it is or isnt, is in your hands regardless of the group you are with at the time and more so, as the saying goes, &quot;when nobody's looking&quot;. I full believe we dont even need anti's to take away our right to hunt as our actions are doing it for us!

Cods,

Your second paragraph is not even close! other then that I agree with ya.

Farmhunter,

You talk of boundrys my friend, you are walking a fine line! I hear this time and time again <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> proficient weapon (to use your words), effecient, and more humane<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>sorry but I snicker at comments like these. Even an ATLATL in the right hands is all of the above! Did I tell ya I killed a moose and sheep this year with my longbow.....Neither of which traveled farther then 25 yards.

Ak

As one of the many I respect there postings on this and the trad forum, I am a bit in awestruck by your post.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>as long it falls within the confines of the law <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I know you know as well as I, that just because its legal does not mean its ethical, and visa versa! Just because its illegal does not mean its unethical!

Aurther P! Well said! AMEN!

Now I am not going after anybody as I am sure it can be taken that way! I think more so suprised at what others are posting/thinking about things like this!

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Lilhunter,
My second paragraph was an attempt at sarcasm. Even if I was trying to make the point being made, rangefinders would be at the bottom of the list.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Lilhunter, I made that statement in a little more loose context than how you may be viewing it. I was looking at &quot;fair&quot; from the general standpoint of using animals for human use as opposed to &quot;fair&quot; in the sense of challenge and chance from a hunter's stance. I tried to distinguish between the two indirectly, but mabey I didn't present that well. Guess I should also qualify my statement with a &quot;responsible use&quot; clause in there somewhere. :)

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Long before there were all the gadgets I killed deer with a recurve. Old antiquated things by todays recurve standards too. We didn't have all the camo.... I hunted in Army Green. It really wasn't much different. I still killed deer every year. I practiced for the fun of it more than to become proficient. That was a by product of having fun. IF they outlawed our gadgets tomorrow we could all do the same stuff we do now... we'd just have to learn to shoot a recurve or long bow. It's not rocket science. It's no big deal. We use what we have because they're improvements and we enjoy bowhunting. Everything in life doesn't have to be some big &quot;ETHICAL&quot; discussion or conform to some &quot;FAIR&quot; standard. If you're unhappy with the gadgets just stop using them. No big deal. There are thousands out there not using them now and there were hundreds of thousands before them.

And... that's a homemade(by me) leather vest I'm wearing. Why on earth did I make something like that. Oh well.



Edited by - davidmil on 01/04/2003 21:28:41

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Nice doe, David. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Kristen, it is interesting to see someone think so much about this. I do agree with Davidmil. Somethings about living are not anymore complicated than you choose to make them.

If its legal, and its ethical, and you're having fun, you're doing it right.

Now that doesn't mean that one person's way of having fun is the same as the others. I do not care for the idea of Fall turkey season. I prefer the Spring hunt because you can call them in close. Yea, I know its possible to call them in during the Fall season in a certain way, but it is not the same to me. So I simply do something else.

When our first Americans hunted they didn't trifle over &quot;sport.&quot; They didn't spend too much time thinking about what the deer was thinking. The idea of &quot;sport&quot; is a relatively new thing in the whole scope of time. It is ill-defined and always will be.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

i think davidmil hit the nail on the head



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> We use what we have because they're improvements and we enjoy bowhunting. Everything in life doesn't have to be some big &quot;ETHICAL&quot; discussion or conform to some &quot;FAIR&quot; standard. If you're unhappy with the gadgets just stop using them. No big deal. There are thousands out there not using them now and there were hundreds of thousands before them.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

if i had even half of a brain i might of said something like that

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I remember (years ago) when an ethical hunt meant giving the animal fair chance,chase and good shot placment.

...

At what point do I lessen the hunt?.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

When you use a tree stand. Where is the &quot;chase&quot; in tree stand hunting?

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

and its different in setting up a ground blind how? There is chase in all of what we do, albeit in different forms. Moving from stand to stand, woodlot to woodlot, trying to outsmart mr animal.

Not to mention I would much rather people use stands with high tech saftey belts, then climb up tree limbs, standing on branches with nothing more then a hemp woven cord to &quot;break there fall&quot;.

I am sure you also have problems with dogs be it bears, cougars, or birds, baiting bears, etc etc. Careful the path you choose as it affects us all!


David, Nice pic man! Looks like it belongs in one of the old bear digests. I do however disagree to some aspect. What we do is personal and to what level we take it is also personal. But what we do is under constant scrutiny of non hunters day in and day out. A picture of a &quot;bowhunter&quot; dress like &quot;rambo&quot; on his weekend/daily &quot;hunt&quot; would I am sure leave a bad view in there heads. Just the other side to the coin I guess. Btw, that leather vest has class, espically by todays &quot;standards&quot;! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>!

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

Davidmil, That's one of the neatest pictures I've ever seen on this board! Thanks for putting it up. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> What year was that, if may I ask?

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

that'd be self incriminating wouldnt it <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>!

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

It's not that old of a picture..... but there weren't very many bowhunters around then. We really didn't have camo then. I think it was 2 or 3 years before they came out with Treebark. I was a newly wed in Texas, just back from Vietnam. The year would be 1971. I have no idea what prompted me to make that vest. My wife was making some curtains for our new house and I was feeling frisky and handy. That's a Texas piggy taken west of San Antonio about 30 miles. Note the slim mean finely tuned body on the hunter.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I had put on about 35 pounds since returning from Nam.

Edited by - davidmil on 01/05/2003 10:02:04

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

beprepn, Did you get back into bowhunting just so you could become another one of the ethics Police?

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

I dont know if I am?have not made myself clear,let me try once more:

Ethical:To take game in a manner that brings about its demise in a quick and honorable fashion.

Sporting: to NOT take unfair advantage of game by means of equipment,baiting,trap,ect.and therefor reduce that game to the stature of slaughterhouse animal.

Example of one w/o the other: A rifle hunter can dispatch (ethically)@ 300yrds. but gives the animal no chance.

When I sold/gave away my guns, it was because there was no sport in hunting with them.

So the following:

A bowhunter must get closer to the quarry to dispatch it quickly with a razor sharp broadhead.(I.E. ethical sport hunting)

I am seeing some here that are not grasping what I am saying,hope these examples help!




<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

krisken - If you feel that the use of a range finder might give you an unfair advantage while bowhunting, why not use it while practicing at various ranges?

After a while you will find that you can more accurately estimate distances and will no longer need the range finder.

As to machines; any tool used to harvest an animal is a &quot;machine&quot;.



Shoot often - Hunt always

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
beprepn, Did you get back into bowhunting just so you could become another one of the ethics Police?


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Worse yet, Krisken had already mentioned going back to stalking.

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
It's not that old of a picture..... but there weren't very many bowhunters around then. We really didn't have camo then. I think it was 2 or 3 years before they came out with Treebark. I was a newly wed in Texas, just back from Vietnam. The year would be 1971. I have no idea what prompted me to make that vest. My wife was making some curtains for our new house and I was feeling frisky and handy. That's a Texas piggy taken west of San Antonio about 30 miles. Note the slim mean finely tuned body on the hunter.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I had put on about 35 pounds since returning from Nam.


Edited by - davidmil on 01/05/2003 10:02:04
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Heh, heh, after dark I was &quot;green delta 40&quot; for most of 1971, if a spec 4 can be a 40.

beprepn

RE: sporting = ethics ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
This is the question I am pondering.

My tree stand has become a endless tail of success with every outing (it seems) ...

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

&quot;When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer.&quot;