RE: Groups?
 

It's during daylight hours and in the woods condition, shade/light etc....
Low light, yes this does make a difference in visual degredation.


Not really, I can shoot those same groups aiming at a hole in the deer/target if a spot is visually bright enough ie contrast etc. Many times I'll sink the first arrow and then aim for that arrow depending on distance shot. Again, I don't like busting expensive arrows.

I haven't found this to be exactly true. If you take out the equation of color or target make up/form and aim for the mark/intended target. In 3D tournaments that might be a nock, a former arrow hole, a ring, a shaded/sun mark etc...I don't see a deer/turkey/elk/caribou. I only see a mark....thus picking a deers hair, ruffled hair, discoloration etc...

A mark is a mark be it a round circle on a white morrell bag or a black hole in a 3D deer. If you can see the mark, I intend to hit the mark, not an area.

Thus, it's easier to hit the center of a golfball than it is to hit the center of a basketball. Aim small, miss small etc...

RE: Groups?
 

I'm not worried about groups.

What I am worried about is going out in the yard after work, or first thing in the morning. Taking an arrow and pitching it out somewhere at some unknown distance, and addressing a target, and being able to drill it right where it counts ONCE.

After warming up with 15-20 shots, I can shoot beer can groups at 40 yards too... most shooters can (at least the guys I shoot with can). But its the first one that counts for us hunters.

RE: Groups?
 

Thats definately true Rob. I find it much harder to hit a softball sized dot at 20 yards than you might think... yet, the very next shot, I can turn around and shoot a quarter wedged in the layers... funny how it works out.

And as to the sun/shade spots and 3D tournaments... don't trust them if its windy.... :(

RE: Groups?
 

for the record, thats an awesome picture.

RE: Groups?
 

I think I'm gonna start aiming at microrganisms on my 3D deer to get more precise.....

lol

I would honestly like to shoot 3D with some of the people on this site. With quarter sized groups at 40 yds, though.....I couldn't compete. Our 3d indoor course has shots to 43 yds. The 10 ring is about a 3" diameter circle. The 12 ring is about the size of a .50 piece on most. Best round I've ever seen shot is 216.....and my personal best is 208. Some of the groups I see toute on the internet would win every shoot we have.

I've shot with Rob at our course....and he shot a 208 the day we shot the course (to my 204.....and those were our high rounds). 9 times out of 10.....200 would win one of our tournaments.

If I can keep it in the 10 ring from ANY distance......I have no doubts that I can humanely kill deer. My standards increase as the yardages decrease......but I honestly never remember actually aiming for a particular hair or tuft. "I" see a spot that my pin is on (both eyes open)......and I know that's where my arrow is going to impact. I don't understand the "hair/crease/tuft" thing. My arrow's gonna hit where my pin is. That's all I need to know.

Interesting hearing how others think, though.

RE: Groups?
 

GMMAT, that is exactly how I feel and shoot. When I am sighting my bow in, then I am shooting at tiny spots in order to "dial in". Once I am set I switch over to the 3D target and get used to that "look". On a 3D target with no dots, if I am outside a 5" groupat 60 yards I am upset.

RE: Groups?
 

My goal is the 1" per 10 yards, but I'm just a hunter. I've got 30 pretty well down, but not 40
(more like 6").

But what do you guys call a "group." What I mean, is every now and then most people have
shots that just deviate (suck) for whatever reason. For example, if I'm shooting at 3" dots
at 30 yards, I will likely put 5 in, but then I might have 1 that goes high 2".
When you say groups, have you guys eliminated that one off shot (still probably a kill shot) out of 10?

RE: Groups?
 

No, I don't anyway, but the more you shoot the more that 1:10 becomes 1:20 and then 1:30 and then only once in a while. I had one the night before last though that made my 60 yard group about a foot[:@]Still happens, just less often.

RE: Groups?
 

Groups would be all arrows in that group. I wish I could eliminate that 1 stray arrow myself and then I could say I shoot 4" groups at 50 yds. However, I always have a stray.

Apie plate at 20 yds is a huge margin of error. Maybe at 50 that's good. You have to consider that when shooting at deer stuff happens and if you aren't shooting close to the spot you are aiming things can go bad in a hurry if the deer moves a little.

The first shot is the most important. If that 1st shot is on center I'm happy and ready for game.I get bored with practice and my mind starts to wonder a lot of the time. but if that 1st shot out of my bow at 40 yds is within 2" of center I'm a happy man.

RE: Groups?
 

Belowis a slightly better than average group for me at 40 yards, followed by a 70 yard group shot by my buddy Dan and I screwing around at the club.

Most groupsat 40 yards I will end up with 3 touching the black dot, bad groups on average will have 2 in the dot. My flyers these days aren't so bad though, the black dot here is about 1.5" in diameter and most times I miss the dot I am less than a 1/2" off it, I am able to keep the worst groups with flyers still under 4-5" at 40 yards as well.

In regards to the question about how we do on a brown/black target with no dot marking the spot......a good shooter with 3D experience would surprise you.Honestly a good shooter is a good shooter and this isn't going to affect them much. I know myself personally at the local 3D shoots from open stakes with shots averaging 33-40 yards and some extending out to 50 yards..............I am averaging 10-12 X's on a 30 target course with a pin sight. From the hunter class stakes last year (35 yards and closer) I was averaging 13-17X's.