Groups?
 

I know this was just posted on here somewhere recently but I will bring it up again. What do you call a good group at 20yds, 30, 40 ect? Someone posted in inches I believe. Keep in mind I have only been shooting since Jan. '05 so I very much still consider myself a novice.

Thanks, LT

RE: Groups?
 

I wouldn't settle for anything less than this at 20 yards, but I shot it at 40 yards.

RE: Groups?
 

How big is your circle there Rob? Just curious as to how well you can see the spot at 40yds. Not kidding, I would really like to know. Also, is this in perfect light or near dark conditions?

Thanks, LT

RE: Groups?
 

1" per 10 yds

RE: Groups?
 

Oh and by the way Rob, do you think it helps your groups due to the fact you are shooting at a target with a white background and not picking a spot on a brown/grey deer? Just curious.

LT

RE: Groups?
 

If you can shoot three to four arrows in a tight group as small as an bottle cap at thirty yards , your doing great.

RE: Groups?
 

I have always heard the whole pie plate routine!

Myself I am more like Rob, you should be able to hit like that at 20yds and as you go back to 30-40 you can give urself an inch or so of play.

But what it really comes down to is,DO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITHYOUR SHOTS???????????
If so your good to go! If not stay out of the woods! (im not being smart)

RE: Groups?
 

Teejay, that sounds about like what I get.

RdHunter, I ain't that good yet.(Not on a consistent basis anyway)

LT

RE: Groups?
 

WesternMd, the pie plate thing I can handle. Even in near dark conditions at 35 to 40 yds.:D

I am totally confident in my shooting at animals.

LT

RE: Groups?
 

You'll be there in no time just keep practice shooting. :)

RE: Groups?
 

That's what about a 2.5 inch circle which I have no trouble seeing at 40 plus yards, it's on a Morrell bag.



I am never satisfied if there is an arrow outside the black circle of the bag regardless of the distance I am shooting. When I shoot shorter than 40 yards, I don't shoot the same circle because of busting nocks and arrows and these ACC's are not cheap.

I'm not saying everyone should not settle for less, I'm my biggest competitor so that's my goals.

And yes, it certainly helps being able to see what your aiming at. I shoot with both eyes open, (second eye partially open) and I use small fiber pins, longer distances I use .019 pins so that my pin doe not block my intended target. The longer the distance you shoot accurately, the easier it is to make tighter groups up closer.

RE: Groups?
 

Tight groups are fine and dandy for fancy shootin matches, but a deer wont know if you hit 1.1654" off your "true" aiming point...:eek:
They will know however if you cut up their lungs or heart.;)
Groups are for practice anyway, you "Rarely" get a deer to stand perfectly still while you punch 4 arrows in a 2" circle at any yardage. If you can consistently hit a Vital area size target, nothing else matters.

RE: Groups?
 

True dat.

RE: Groups?
 

Rob, I see what you are saying. My black dots in the center of the circle are about 1 inch. I can see those fairly well at 30yds in a shaded part of my yard at 0'dark30. I see what all the fuss is about now with shooting with both eyes open. I started doing this a good while back and it has helped my follow thru and being able to watch my arrow tremondously. If you can do this consistently, I recommend doing it. I also believe if we would all practice shooting at a more lifelike target(including real deer hair color) in early morning/late evening shade, we would begin to find some inconsistency in our shooting. I know I did. A lot of difference in that and shooting at that whit or yellow bag with the black dots. JMO

LT

RE: Groups?
 

beesknees, you have a valid point. As Rob said, this is true. I am also of the mindset as with any other goals, to be as accurate as possible is the best way to hit your intended target.

LT

RE: Groups?
 

When shooting multiple arrows with field tips I expect shots to should stack tight touching each other in a 1 inch circle or less at 20 yards or less..2 inch circle out to 30 yards and at forty 2.5..bout all I want to see..or I am not happy.

That being said, like Rob talked about, ACC's get expensive and breaking stuff sucks. I've started calling my shots versus worrying about groups so much after I've alreadygot my groupings very tight.. for example I will call "1 inch to the right left top or bottom of an existing arrow"so I dont hit it. When shooting multiple arrowswith my partner, we do that all time. Its kind of like playing "horse" with a bow.

I shootout to50 yardstoo..and shoot it well. Just for practice though..doubt I would ever trip the release on anything other than a broadside stone still bull elk at 50 yards...Whitetails I like to take shots at 30 or less.. 40 pin max.. I shoot .019's and love them.. this new Copper John Pro hunter 2 is amazing in low light as well.

Once hunting season gets close and after shooting almost every day all summer... like right now...I am shooting 1 arrow at a time with broadheads intact.Every shot has to count, just like when we hunt...or its no good. NO second chances... My buddy and I are doing that right now..1 shot at atime from every angle and distance we ar comfortable with..(off the roof of the house, off a knee, sitting, aiming up hill, standing all anglesetc) ..this takes some time but it gets me focused for hunting ..

RE: Groups?
 

I know this has been asked before, but I cant remember the replies. How do you keepyour hand steadyenough at 40 yards to consistantly put an arrow in a 2" circle?

Im having trouble with my old fred bear bow. The biggest problems include a long drawlength,inconsistant releasing (I dont use a release aid because ofthe long draw length), and only about 20% letoff (Its a 60# bow). Im able to hit a pie plate at 20 yards, but at 30, the arrows tend todrift all over. I can usually hit a sheet of paper 3/5 times at 30. Do you have any suggestions to help tighten my groups or should I just keep my shots within the 20 yard range untill Im able to buy a new bow?

RE: Groups?
 

Im a firm believer in Practice, Practice, Practice as well, I shoot as much as possible All year long. I also Have noticed that mister buck doesnt know when I started shooting,how tiny ofgroups I shoot, what kind of broadhead I am using, or much else... He knows "MMMM! that smells good!, "pop", "whats that?!" "ooooff! ouch, Im dead"

All that other stuff is just frosting on the cake, the buck is dead, so he wont be interested in any cake...:)

RE: Groups?
 

i always practiced saying if i could keep all my six practice arrows in a paper plate...every time...then i can shoot at that distance in the woods

RE: Groups?
 

If your comfortable at 20, go for it.

Personally I would go get something that FITS! Spend a few bucks and put nice hardware on it, tune it up, and practice like theres no tomorrow. Youll be amazed how much better and consistent you will be shooting with a well fitting bow.

RE: Groups?
 

It's during daylight hours and in the woods condition, shade/light etc....
Low light, yes this does make a difference in visual degredation.


Not really, I can shoot those same groups aiming at a hole in the deer/target if a spot is visually bright enough ie contrast etc. Many times I'll sink the first arrow and then aim for that arrow depending on distance shot. Again, I don't like busting expensive arrows.

I haven't found this to be exactly true. If you take out the equation of color or target make up/form and aim for the mark/intended target. In 3D tournaments that might be a nock, a former arrow hole, a ring, a shaded/sun mark etc...I don't see a deer/turkey/elk/caribou. I only see a mark....thus picking a deers hair, ruffled hair, discoloration etc...

A mark is a mark be it a round circle on a white morrell bag or a black hole in a 3D deer. If you can see the mark, I intend to hit the mark, not an area.

Thus, it's easier to hit the center of a golfball than it is to hit the center of a basketball. Aim small, miss small etc...

RE: Groups?
 

I'm not worried about groups.

What I am worried about is going out in the yard after work, or first thing in the morning. Taking an arrow and pitching it out somewhere at some unknown distance, and addressing a target, and being able to drill it right where it counts ONCE.

After warming up with 15-20 shots, I can shoot beer can groups at 40 yards too... most shooters can (at least the guys I shoot with can). But its the first one that counts for us hunters.

RE: Groups?
 

Thats definately true Rob. I find it much harder to hit a softball sized dot at 20 yards than you might think... yet, the very next shot, I can turn around and shoot a quarter wedged in the layers... funny how it works out.

And as to the sun/shade spots and 3D tournaments... don't trust them if its windy.... :(

RE: Groups?
 

for the record, thats an awesome picture.

RE: Groups?
 

I think I'm gonna start aiming at microrganisms on my 3D deer to get more precise.....

lol

I would honestly like to shoot 3D with some of the people on this site. With quarter sized groups at 40 yds, though.....I couldn't compete. Our 3d indoor course has shots to 43 yds. The 10 ring is about a 3" diameter circle. The 12 ring is about the size of a .50 piece on most. Best round I've ever seen shot is 216.....and my personal best is 208. Some of the groups I see toute on the internet would win every shoot we have.

I've shot with Rob at our course....and he shot a 208 the day we shot the course (to my 204.....and those were our high rounds). 9 times out of 10.....200 would win one of our tournaments.

If I can keep it in the 10 ring from ANY distance......I have no doubts that I can humanely kill deer. My standards increase as the yardages decrease......but I honestly never remember actually aiming for a particular hair or tuft. "I" see a spot that my pin is on (both eyes open)......and I know that's where my arrow is going to impact. I don't understand the "hair/crease/tuft" thing. My arrow's gonna hit where my pin is. That's all I need to know.

Interesting hearing how others think, though.

RE: Groups?
 

GMMAT, that is exactly how I feel and shoot. When I am sighting my bow in, then I am shooting at tiny spots in order to "dial in". Once I am set I switch over to the 3D target and get used to that "look". On a 3D target with no dots, if I am outside a 5" groupat 60 yards I am upset.

RE: Groups?
 

My goal is the 1" per 10 yards, but I'm just a hunter. I've got 30 pretty well down, but not 40
(more like 6").

But what do you guys call a "group." What I mean, is every now and then most people have
shots that just deviate (suck) for whatever reason. For example, if I'm shooting at 3" dots
at 30 yards, I will likely put 5 in, but then I might have 1 that goes high 2".
When you say groups, have you guys eliminated that one off shot (still probably a kill shot) out of 10?

RE: Groups?
 

No, I don't anyway, but the more you shoot the more that 1:10 becomes 1:20 and then 1:30 and then only once in a while. I had one the night before last though that made my 60 yard group about a foot[:@]Still happens, just less often.

RE: Groups?
 

Groups would be all arrows in that group. I wish I could eliminate that 1 stray arrow myself and then I could say I shoot 4" groups at 50 yds. However, I always have a stray.

Apie plate at 20 yds is a huge margin of error. Maybe at 50 that's good. You have to consider that when shooting at deer stuff happens and if you aren't shooting close to the spot you are aiming things can go bad in a hurry if the deer moves a little.

The first shot is the most important. If that 1st shot is on center I'm happy and ready for game.I get bored with practice and my mind starts to wonder a lot of the time. but if that 1st shot out of my bow at 40 yds is within 2" of center I'm a happy man.

RE: Groups?
 

Belowis a slightly better than average group for me at 40 yards, followed by a 70 yard group shot by my buddy Dan and I screwing around at the club.

Most groupsat 40 yards I will end up with 3 touching the black dot, bad groups on average will have 2 in the dot. My flyers these days aren't so bad though, the black dot here is about 1.5" in diameter and most times I miss the dot I am less than a 1/2" off it, I am able to keep the worst groups with flyers still under 4-5" at 40 yards as well.

In regards to the question about how we do on a brown/black target with no dot marking the spot......a good shooter with 3D experience would surprise you.Honestly a good shooter is a good shooter and this isn't going to affect them much. I know myself personally at the local 3D shoots from open stakes with shots averaging 33-40 yards and some extending out to 50 yards..............I am averaging 10-12 X's on a 30 target course with a pin sight. From the hunter class stakes last year (35 yards and closer) I was averaging 13-17X's.