Healthy herd myth
08-03-2007, 12:24 PM
#31
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Healthy herd myth
You made the statement not me, prove it. We all know you can not
The tag system were more fair to rabbits atlas. We went for years here in MI shooting nothing but bucks. It has never been that way for rabbits. When I shoot a bunny I have to roll it over to see what I shot. Just think if we shot just male bunnies, holy cow we would have QBM
Then we would have EBM(Ear Bunny management).
Or before he even has the chance to become the alpha male. What about making the 1.5 bucks carry the load? By natures design they were not suppose to be main breeders. We sure have muck that up in your area. If I recall not a mature deer in 1 sq mile. Like I said there is middle ground and I think we can do it. Is baiting legal in NY?
I agree with first statement.
How come no one cares about the "balance" of the rabbit population??......I have never seen one initiative to further the health of the rabbit herd by not shooting the smaller males. I wonder why that is. There must be a reason.
Then we would have EBM(Ear Bunny management).
If another deer comes along and topples "the man" then so be it........that is nature and he had his turn at the top. You are talking about a very brief stint of when these deer are vulnerable........95% of the rest of the year they are kings. Clipping the alpha male from a herd does nothing but weaken it.
I agree with first statement.
08-03-2007, 12:26 PM
#32
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: HuntingBry
I'm honest and forthcoming about my desires for management of the herd. I have been involved in sports all of my life. Every tournament, playoff, game, or championship I have been involved with I have wanted to take home a trophy. At work, I am not content to sit idle in a dead end position, but want to advance. In hunting I like to see and hopefully shoot bucks bigger than those I have killed in the past.
If the state is going to enact laws that help me do that I am all for it. I know that an out of balance buck to doe ratio will make it harder for me to do that because a) the does overpopulation is taking food away that will help the bucks grow bigger racks, and b) the lack of competition during the rut makes it more difficult to catch the bigger bucks chasing.
If in the end all of this results in a healthier herd, then all the better. I do have an interest in wildlife management, enough so that it was my minor in college, but it is not my driving force in hunting.
I want nice big bucks to put on my wall and look at while I'm watching hunting shows in the off-season and dreaming about the next season. If you have a problem with that then poo-poo on you.
I'm honest and forthcoming about my desires for management of the herd. I have been involved in sports all of my life. Every tournament, playoff, game, or championship I have been involved with I have wanted to take home a trophy. At work, I am not content to sit idle in a dead end position, but want to advance. In hunting I like to see and hopefully shoot bucks bigger than those I have killed in the past.
If the state is going to enact laws that help me do that I am all for it. I know that an out of balance buck to doe ratio will make it harder for me to do that because a) the does overpopulation is taking food away that will help the bucks grow bigger racks, and b) the lack of competition during the rut makes it more difficult to catch the bigger bucks chasing.
If in the end all of this results in a healthier herd, then all the better. I do have an interest in wildlife management, enough so that it was my minor in college, but it is not my driving force in hunting.
I want nice big bucks to put on my wall and look at while I'm watching hunting shows in the off-season and dreaming about the next season. If you have a problem with that then poo-poo on you.
08-03-2007, 12:44 PM
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location:
Posts: 1,438
RE: Healthy herd myth
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the word "harvest," as in "we must harvest x amount of
deer to maintain a healthy herd balance." It's like we are all involved in some elaborate
tightly controlled expirement. [&:]
deer to maintain a healthy herd balance." It's like we are all involved in some elaborate
tightly controlled expirement. [&:]
08-03-2007, 12:53 PM
#36
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: LebeauHunter
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the word "harvest," as in "we must harvest x amount of
deer to maintain a healthy herd balance." It's like we are all involved in some elaborate
tightly controlled expirement. [&:]
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the word "harvest," as in "we must harvest x amount of
deer to maintain a healthy herd balance." It's like we are all involved in some elaborate
tightly controlled expirement. [&:]
Why and I agree with Atlas here, the guys that are in the woods know what is there. I think DEC and DNR need to do a better job of working with hunters.
08-03-2007, 12:57 PM
#37
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern MD
Posts: 2,520
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Germ
I think DEC and DNR need to do a better job of working with hunters.
I think DEC and DNR need to do a better job of working with hunters.
08-03-2007, 01:09 PM
#38
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Healthy herd myth
Atlas here are the numbers from a MAR's DMU 118. They come from Ed Spin he is a big QDM guy here in MI. I read a pile of his articles.
With this data is the herd in DMU 118 in MI Healthier than before?
The fact all the QDM test that has been done thatI have read has show the herd to be what they deem as "heathier" at the end. The hunters survied say theirhunting has improved.
Bigger Racks
Bigger Bodies
And a better buck to doe ratio
BTW the buck to doe should not be 1:1, I have read a few articles and this is a myth.From what I read from ED Spin is 50% 1.5 buck harvest is ideal. So if you could put a MAR's in place protect 50% 1.5 bucks would not that not be fair? MI is about 65%, if NY is the same is that 15% going to hurt that bad for you guys?
So what are you afraid of Atlas? Open your mind a bit and try and work with these guys. Your a smart guy and would be a great help. I find your whole post based on one thing, fear.
Is trying to protect 50% 1.5 bucks to extreme for you? If so why?
BTW I had your exact view 12 years ago, I opened my mind a bit and learned
How about a drop of 38% in the harvest of button, how about an 84% increase in the harvest of does, how about a drop in the harvest of 1 1/2 year old bucks of 41%, (from 78% to 46 % of the total buck harvested). One more, how about an increase in the total harvest of bucks at 24% in spite of the fact there was an 84% increase in the harvest of does and as mentioned the protection of yearling bucks exactly as the 3 points on one side was expected to do.
The fact all the QDM test that has been done thatI have read has show the herd to be what they deem as "heathier" at the end. The hunters survied say theirhunting has improved.
Bigger Racks
Bigger Bodies
And a better buck to doe ratio
BTW the buck to doe should not be 1:1, I have read a few articles and this is a myth.From what I read from ED Spin is 50% 1.5 buck harvest is ideal. So if you could put a MAR's in place protect 50% 1.5 bucks would not that not be fair? MI is about 65%, if NY is the same is that 15% going to hurt that bad for you guys?
So what are you afraid of Atlas? Open your mind a bit and try and work with these guys. Your a smart guy and would be a great help. I find your whole post based on one thing, fear.
Is trying to protect 50% 1.5 bucks to extreme for you? If so why?
BTW I had your exact view 12 years ago, I opened my mind a bit and learned
08-03-2007, 01:27 PM
#39
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Healthy herd myth
Why is it so hard for some to believe that a healthy herd is desired by many hunters?
Why does it always fall back to "well the deer aren't skin & bones, they mustbe healthy"
How come it is ok to believe(and in some cases WANT) a male population made up of the young and immature. Yea they may still live and eat and all, but you can't possibly think that is a normal biological trend, otherwise the "natural" life span of a buck would be 1-2 years and it would die.
How is it 'bad' & untruthfulof hunters to want a decent buck to doe ratio,(2:1) and a large enough population of older bucks in the breakdown to suppress the young bucks from breeding so that they can grow and maximize thier potential? Why is that such a crime?
Why do so many want to believe that just because the deer aren't dead, means its a healthy ecosystem. Over browsing and habitat destruction happens from too many deer.
Man has forever impacteddeerand whatconditions they can 'naturally' exist under. Why not manage the herd to more closely resemble the structure of a true 'natural' condition? Bucks spread across all age classes, and a ratio approaching 1.5:1 or 2:1. And total numbers that don't damage the habitat in which they live. Butwhen hunters tryto reach these conditions, we are labeledevil, decietful trophy mongers by those without the restraint to allow it to happen.
Why does it always fall back to "well the deer aren't skin & bones, they mustbe healthy"
How come it is ok to believe(and in some cases WANT) a male population made up of the young and immature. Yea they may still live and eat and all, but you can't possibly think that is a normal biological trend, otherwise the "natural" life span of a buck would be 1-2 years and it would die.
How is it 'bad' & untruthfulof hunters to want a decent buck to doe ratio,(2:1) and a large enough population of older bucks in the breakdown to suppress the young bucks from breeding so that they can grow and maximize thier potential? Why is that such a crime?
Why do so many want to believe that just because the deer aren't dead, means its a healthy ecosystem. Over browsing and habitat destruction happens from too many deer.
Man has forever impacteddeerand whatconditions they can 'naturally' exist under. Why not manage the herd to more closely resemble the structure of a true 'natural' condition? Bucks spread across all age classes, and a ratio approaching 1.5:1 or 2:1. And total numbers that don't damage the habitat in which they live. Butwhen hunters tryto reach these conditions, we are labeledevil, decietful trophy mongers by those without the restraint to allow it to happen.
08-03-2007, 01:36 PM
#40
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: davidmil
I was watching a hunting show yesterday. The guy shot a younger buck.(His last day of hunting.... hmmmmmm??) Anyway, first words out of his mouth, "Nice management buck". Give me a break. If I shot the dang thing he'd tell me I should have let it grow up for the "HEALTH of the HERD". He gives up and doesn't want to eat tag soup he calls it a "Management buck". LOL.
I was watching a hunting show yesterday. The guy shot a younger buck.(His last day of hunting.... hmmmmmm??) Anyway, first words out of his mouth, "Nice management buck". Give me a break. If I shot the dang thing he'd tell me I should have let it grow up for the "HEALTH of the HERD". He gives up and doesn't want to eat tag soup he calls it a "Management buck". LOL.
What a coincidence it is that as the time left on stand gets shorter.........the definition of "management buck" tends to change.
And you're right about the NY deer Atlas. They're butter ball fat and weigh more at a year and a half than most of those "Well Managed" deer in Texas at 4 or 5.
They might look a little beat up after10 or 11 feet of snow in the winter but they bounce right back. Right on Atlasman.[8D]
[8D]
AMEN