bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Greg's post got me thinking about this......[/align][/align]Would you be in favor of an accuracyproficiency test to secure a bowhunting permit in your state?[/align]

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

You know the only problem I would have with it would be some people applying might not be that poor of a shot; however may not properly understand how to tune their equipment or form. So I'm not so sure it would be a fair test of competency, for what it's worth.

Kelly

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

I think an IQ test for gun hunters should come first:D

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WHOA BUCKEY DON'T THINK YOU WANT TO GO THERE! That sounds like something an anti-hunter or politician might suggest.

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I agree with rank, it is seriously not even funny how stupid some of them are round here.

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I'm not so sure I am following you here....

It wouldn't be to exclude anyone but to make the guys who pull their bow out of the "garage" the day before the seasons starts to actually get their bow out earlier and become proficent with their equipment.

I don't know how I feel aboutitthat's why I am asking for opinions.

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No. I would not be in favor of it. While I understand your point I think the government tries to control us enough. It's a damn shame, but one bad apple spoils the bunch. I for one am pretty tired of having to adapt to the "bad apples" of the world. The fact of the matter is, it's a free country ( supposedly ) and if someone wants to get their bow out 2 days before season and shoot 5 arrows, then deem themselves worthy of hunting.........Well, so be it. I don't agree with it, but I would be against legislation trying to control it even more.

I think the good apples have to stand above the bad and attempt to sway the attention away from the bad......Just my 2 cents......

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If I were an outfitter I might consider it. I wouldn't want just any yahoo flinging arrows at my lively hood and wounding a bunch of them. Having them run off never to be found. That and if you draw blood you bought it.

But to get a permit, I don't think it would work.You would have a mob on your hands a couple of days before the season.

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It's not that i don't think everyone should be profiecient with their weapon of choice,it's just that i believe it would be just one more thing to divide us at a time when we need to stick together on all points.I believe it would give the anti-hunters more to flip it around and use against us.

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

GREAT question, Scott...

And equally as good an answer mobow.

I actually agree with both concepts; as a pretty hardcore, right-wing conservative, I agree whole-heartedly with Donnie. But... I'm gonna waffle a bit as I think through this and say that you've got a great point, buckeye.As someone who's about as serious about bowhunting as you can be, I love being an ambassador for our sport, and often times think that -- while not necessarily the standards I hold myself to need to be put into place -- that sometimes we do need standards.

I had the extreme displeasure of a co-worker a few years ago who found out I was a bowhunter want to go hunting with me. We ended up hunting a couple times together, and I saw him gutshot a deer, shoot another in the hip, wound a turkey, and wound a bobcat in those couple hunts. I was appalled, and we went our seperate ways. Oh wait... we hunted three times together, because the first time out together, I put him in one of my best spots and he wounded a legitimate 150-class bruiser; I know he was because he cameby my stand after he shot him, though I didn't know it at the time. I wondered why I couldn't grunt him over to me.. I got a friend of mine to take me up in his private plane the next day and we circled the area for 10 minutes as I looked over the CRP field he went into with binos. [:@]

The problembecomes who administers? Who sets policy? Does it -- like mobow said -- open the door for more restrictions from anti-hunters down the road? (This would have to be weighed VERY carefully, and is the reason my initial reaction would be to say "no") There's a LOT to think about here...

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A lot of good points here.

I see it (pulling bow out the day before the season) a lot as it is what my step dad, his brothers and their buddies do each fall.....

Just the other day when a buddy was over my house shooting my step dad stopped by to pick up some spare lumber I had.My buddy and Iwere playing a game of archery pig we werestanding a mere 30 yards from the deer target. My step dad says "what are you doing all the way back here..... you are going to lose all your arrows it's inevitable!"

He was being serious :eek:
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RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Nice post Greg.....

I would be called a fence sitter on this issue as I do see pros and cons of the idea.

I may be wrong but I believe their are states (Alaska?) that do require this.

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

I used to hunt on one of the military installations around here. In order to hunt there, you had to pass a proficiency test (among other things). It can be a bit nerve wracking when there's 50 or so people standing there watching you shoot before they get their chance. I think it's a good idea to help weed out those who don't practice and just grab a bow and go hunting (believe me, I've met some). On the other hand, the mobs that would line up there would be a big obstacle to this. I see it from both sides, but I'd favor making the test a part of getting a license.

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I know a guy who shoots awesome at a target put him in front of a deer he can't shoot to save his life. Would be incredibly hard to implement a plan fairly, as well as push some of those people who desperately want to join the legions of us arrowslingers away. When I started bowhunting I had no one to show me the ropesat 14 i didn't realize you probably should practice w/ broadheads or tuning a bow was necessary (did'nt it comed tuned ?) I just don't like the thoughts of pushing some people w/ out an experienced mentor away Or what if you practice all summer and you still are at best are a really terrible shot. Don't deprive one for lack of natural ability. I do however hate the thought of wounded deer but thats the reality we pretty much have all done it even if we shoot quite good!

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Proficiency Testing
Would I be in favor of it? - yes.
Would it be practical to administer- no.

I used to conduct proficiency testing for a military base many years ago. I too have seen otherwise competent (?) archers fold under the pressure of folks watching them. I also got a lot of "Gee, my broadheads fly differently from my field points!?". I am no longer a tester, but I still get tested every year to hunt there.

Amore practicalapproach would beto require completion of the National Bowhunter Education Program class. Some states require it, most don't. At least the unwashed masses might learn something that would help the sport we all love.

There are folks who shouldn't be allowed to carry a bow into the woods, sit behind the wheel of a car, or type on a computer, lol. I agree, there is no practical way to weed them out, the price of a free society...

-fsh

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I'd be more in favor of a required bowhunters' education course. During the course...... the importance of proficiency could be drilled into the students heads.

That's about as far as I'd go.

Stick a man on the ground and tell him to hit a plate @ 20 yds??? OK...I don't think that's going to weed out many people. Put him in a classroom of his peers.....and explain to him why we don't take quartering-to shots at any distance (etc..., etc..., etc...).....and you'll have educated him.

I'd rather educate him and take my chances he'll learn the importance of becoming "proficient".

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I am in favor of a proficiency test.I know it is a slippery slope but there are far to many people who don't put the practice time in and shouldn't be in the woods.
I have two thoughts about performance anxiety,one is someone gets all nerved up and can't shoot in front of people what is going to happen when they have a big buck within shooting range? A practical solution is to have the proficiency test be in a private area where the shooter is alone with the monitor.
I have no tolerance for the slob hunters and if it means losing them so be it!

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I'm kind with Greg on this in that I'm very on the fence about this subject. On one hand, a very good friend of mine's father is a true blue gun hunter. With a gun in his hand he is very lethal, however, with a bow he needs a quiver full of arrows because he'll likely shoot them all...in one hunt! We encourage him to practice, but he does so very little and does not tune his equipment. An accuracy test would benefit him greatly.

On the other hand, one property I used to hunt required a permit and to get the permit you had to pass an accuracy test. All you had to do was hit the mid-section of a deer targetat 10, 15, and 20 yards. There were guys with arrows in the spine, in the gut area, in the brisket, that all got permits. Where and how do you set the criteria?

While the thought of a test is good, the practicality in administering and the challenge of setting the qualifying requirements make it very difficult to put into practice.

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The underlying assumption is of course that a proficiency test would result in more efficient kills and therefore less suffering. I don't think that would be the case at all. Cripling losses are imo the result of hunters taking low percentage or what you might say are unethical shots.Everyoneregardless of their prowesshas a maximum effective range. Everyone is also quite susceptable to yielding to the temptation of taking shots where the kill zone is not properly exposed as opposed to not getting a shot at all. With a little thought I'm sure ou can come up with other situations where even an outstanding shot winds up wounding an animal because his ethics allow him to push the envelope well behond his ability.He'sjust hoping to get lucky and when he's not the animal pays the price. No way to test for this. I think though well intentioned proficiency testing would merely add bureacracy with no benefit.

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I don't disagree about the bureacracy,that is what I was referring to when I used the term slippery slope.From a wounding perspective though I don't agree, a competent archer is far more likely to make a killing shot then an incompetent one.
Having some control over competency is a step in the right direction.We will never be able to legislate a hunters shot selection,thats between them and their conscience.

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I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are all incompetent at some distance. The distance is of course different depending on the skill of the archer but at some point we all stink! For some 20 yards may be a low percentage shot, for others it may be 50 but but if the 20 yard guy has the ethics and discipline to keep within that range and the 50 yard guy will risk shots over 50 then the 50 yard guy who is arguably the "more competent" will wind up wounding more deer.

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No.

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Good point about staying within your effective range, Sylvan.

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Just an idea.... As I said I have no dog in this fight and am just throwing some ideas out.

What do you think about having each bowhunterparticipate inone 3D shoot per year.... having to average an 8 (largest vital ring) to secure their proficiency license? Perhaps allow them to shoot as many shoots as needed to pass the test?

Heck instead of every year maybe the proficiency license could be good for 2 or 3 years......
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RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

That's not a bad idea.....I just had another thought....Should we be testing proficiency, or competency?? :D

I dunno man......Bad shots are gonna happen.....We can test until we're blue in the face, but until it's in an ACTUAL hunting situation, complete with adrenaline, elevated positions, expectations, weather, small limbs, state of mind, and everything else that goes into one single shot on a live animal.........I just don't think it's ever going to be accurate. There is simply no way of knowing how a shot will go on a target range....We haven't even gotten into the deer's frame of mind yet....I've seen perfect shots go bad from jumping the string or the deer taking a step forward RIGHT the moment of release.......I just feel there are simply too many variables that cannot be accounted for.

And even with all of that......We're people, and not perfect. Everyone's gonna flub a shot at some point in their life, of that I'm MOST certain.

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Last thing I want a hunter thinking about is a scoring ring on a deer.

Been there.....done that. I blew a chance at a really good deer thinkng about placing my shot right behind the shoulder.....instead of thinking about the path my arrow needed to take through that deer.

Put a prospective hunte rin a treestand during a bowhunter's education class.....and explain to him the theory of "aiming for the exit hole". That would go further to aid in proficiency in my opinion.

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Very nice..... I agree. My main reason fro bringing this up in the first place was as I mentioned my step dad and all his buddies..... It drives me nuts how terrible of shooters they are. Every year I have to hear the stories of the deer they shot and did not recover. I have been on more than one unsuccessful tracking job with them.

Don't get me wrong my step dad is a great guy, he is just from PA and has the "old school" PA mentality.

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Like you know, I'm living in Quebec. July 15th, I'll pass the exam to have the rights to bowhunt. I'm having a theory class, and the exam at the end, after i'm going to shoot 5 arrows (10,15,20,25,30 meters) I need to take 3 in the vital zone.

It's only that. After I can hunt with my bow during the bowhunting season

Francis

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

That would not aid shooting proficiency at all, it would however aid in the understanding of an anatomically correct aiming point.

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

I understand your point here buckeye, and I like the way you are thinking, but here is the issue with that.

In order to make that sort of thing viable, it would have to be uniform. I don't think I have ever shot two 3D tournys exactly alike. Even at the clubs I shoot at every month, the stakes are always moved, even if the targets never are. Then you get the oh so fun aspect of the weather. Make it cold, make it raining....and your scores will drop an average of 20 points (in bowhunter class).

I'll bounce this off you too....an average of 8 makes a 30 target score of 240. the tournament I shot last week had 80+ shooters in bowhunter class...and only 30 or so of those shooters had over 240. Weather was as perfect as can be...hardly any wind. No bugs to speak of. Now, there are times when dang near everybody shoots above 240...and the winner will have around 315 (which is pretty dang hot shooting). But here is the kicker....if you completely MISS a target (which in my mind is a best case scenario in hunting for a bad shot), you get a score of zero....you have toshoot tens on the next four targets in order to get back on par. And even if you clip a couple of fives, it still takes a pair of tens to get back to one up.

I digress. I don't want to discourage anyone from hunting. I don't think anyone does. Hunter Education is a good thing. We can teach and educate there. Leave the shooting skills for personal improvement. Just like driving tests, its all a test on knowing the laws, safe practices, and procedures....there is no part of the driving test where you have to run a pole setting qualifying lap. They don't care how fast you can drive, as long as you can drive safely and follow the laws.Same applies with hunting.

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Even tho' I never hunted with a bow and it's illegal to do so in this loudmouth country of mine.....

why not do both, educate the hunter and then let him do a simple theory and field test.
I don't have the "it's a free country" blood running through my vanes but I do know every society has it's dumb ass who gets away just by that rule.


Frank
Belgium

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Scott, I see your point......How about this......Somehow having to document that you've practiced X amount of hours for X amount of days prior to season or something.....?? And it would have to be legit documentation, not just "I said so..."

There has to be a motivation to practice....You would think one bad shot on an animal would do it....But it doesn't....

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Semantics, Scott.....but I never mentioned "shooting" proficiency. I was speaking of a hunter's overall understanding of procedure. Best shot in the world isn't worth a flip if the man behind the bow don't know where to aim.

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You'd also have to make sure the animals were pefectly broadside.....and you were shooting from ground level.....or....the scoring rings are actually a disservice to learning whether or not a hunter knows where to actually place his shot.

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And knowing WHERE to aim is completely different than actually HITTING where you aim.....I agree a hunter needs to understand the path the arrow will take through the animal, aim for the exit hole as it were....Spot on, but they still have to be able to HIT that spot...and I believe there are just too many variables to account for an accurate test of that....

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So we're back to this....

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Actually, I think we're back to this....

Knowing where to aim is only half the battle. Scoring rings, no scoring rings, broadside, quartering away......Your aiming point is different for each of those......But you still gotta hit it.....We're not perfect, we're not gonna hit it every time.

RE: bowhunting accuracy test?
 

Swamp

Lot's of good points in you post, thanks for the reply.

I can't believe that.... That is a very poor showing, however I am glad to see them out shooting.

I have shot many'a 3D shoots on the local, state and national level, I understand how weather, insects and other people can affect ones performance. I justdon't think averaging an 8 under almost any condition would be to much to ask for.On many targets an 8 covers 2-4 square feet or more.

I agree also. I dont want anyone excluded just for some people to take practice more seriously.

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Mobo.....quartering away....what good does the scoring ring do? What would a 12 ring on this animal tell a person administering a test? It would tell him the guy beofre him that scored a "5" with a shot to the last rib was a more proficient shot, if you asked me.

I think you know what I'm saying.

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If one is not intelligent enough to differentiate the difference between shootinga foam targets scoring rings and where to place a shot on a living animal, their problems are much larger than their lack of proficiency.

You have never saw a quatering away target? :D