Shooting young bucks?
06-03-2007 | 07:54 PM
#91
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2007
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Germ,
Waddya know, I actually learned something between all these posts.
That's what its supposed to all be about, right?
The book is very technical and scientific, but interesting.
Please don't credit me with the kid analogy, that is in the book. I just got tired of typing.
Waddya know, I actually learned something between all these posts.
That's what its supposed to all be about, right?
The book is very technical and scientific, but interesting.
Please don't credit me with the kid analogy, that is in the book. I just got tired of typing.
06-03-2007 | 07:56 PM
#92
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Waddya know, I actually learned something between all these posts.
That's what its supposed to all be about, right?
That's what its supposed to all be about, right?
I have
06-03-2007 | 07:58 PM
#93
Typical Buck
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Illinois
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I agree! I don't shoot youngbucks either anymore, but I did get started shooting every deer that walkedinto my setupand my heart was pounding just as hard! I believe it is in the eye of the beholder, and big bucks are what I am in pursuit of, and although I wish others would practice passing young bucks but I do not degrade anyone's buck, old or young as long as they got the fever!
06-03-2007 | 08:29 PM
#94
Joined: Feb 2007
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: LebeauHunter
Allright Germ,
Of course we are all now on the same page about the fact that a deer's genetic makeup is set at birth,
but you are definitely on to something with the stress thing. I've been reading up and found the following from Deer Management 101 (Grant Woods):
"Suppressing sexual behavior can help young, subordinate bucks grow larger. Because their desire to breed is reduced, they spend less time participating in rutting activities like chasing, fighting and rut-marking. Instead of using valuable body resources during the rut, young bucks spend the fall feeding. Hence, they can put on additional weight and antler growth the following spring instead of replacing resources lost during the rut. . . . Young bucks receiving this growth opportunity have a much better chance of becoming larger bucks at maturity and more capble of becoming dominant." The book goes on to compare a malnourished kid in a third world country to a farm kid from Nebraska. Who knows what the genetic potential of the third world kid is?
The idea I was talking about that an imbalanced buck doe ratio can have on genetics (as opposed to deer not realizing their genetic potential) is also discussed:
"In a healthy, balanced herd, most large, agressive bucks that attain dominant status have favorable genes. Apparently, resistance to disease (health), large body size, and an aggressive nature are usually 'good characteristics favored by natural selcection. By breeding most of the does, these dominant bucks pass along their 'good' genetic traits."
This is a large post, but just wanted to see if we could come to some agreement on this stuff. There are a lot of good reasons to kill does and pass on small bucks, and the ones above are just a few.
Allright Germ,
Of course we are all now on the same page about the fact that a deer's genetic makeup is set at birth,
but you are definitely on to something with the stress thing. I've been reading up and found the following from Deer Management 101 (Grant Woods):
"Suppressing sexual behavior can help young, subordinate bucks grow larger. Because their desire to breed is reduced, they spend less time participating in rutting activities like chasing, fighting and rut-marking. Instead of using valuable body resources during the rut, young bucks spend the fall feeding. Hence, they can put on additional weight and antler growth the following spring instead of replacing resources lost during the rut. . . . Young bucks receiving this growth opportunity have a much better chance of becoming larger bucks at maturity and more capble of becoming dominant." The book goes on to compare a malnourished kid in a third world country to a farm kid from Nebraska. Who knows what the genetic potential of the third world kid is?
The idea I was talking about that an imbalanced buck doe ratio can have on genetics (as opposed to deer not realizing their genetic potential) is also discussed:
"In a healthy, balanced herd, most large, agressive bucks that attain dominant status have favorable genes. Apparently, resistance to disease (health), large body size, and an aggressive nature are usually 'good characteristics favored by natural selcection. By breeding most of the does, these dominant bucks pass along their 'good' genetic traits."
This is a large post, but just wanted to see if we could come to some agreement on this stuff. There are a lot of good reasons to kill does and pass on small bucks, and the ones above are just a few.
Bone mass has not changed much. Eat plenty with a healthy carrying capacity for the household.
I agree.
06-04-2007 | 01:40 PM
#96
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Phoenixville, PA USA
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Apparently, resistance to disease (health), large body size, and an aggressive nature are usually 'good characteristics favored by natural selcection. By breeding most of the does, these dominant bucks pass along their 'good' genetic traits
06-04-2007 | 02:24 PM
#97
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
HuntingBry,
Not gonna argue too much over someone else's work, but this is just one small quote from the whole book (and it does say "most"). I don't think the author says that only the best bucks will pass on their genes, but that over time with a well balanced deer herd, a greater percentage of genetically superior bucks will be doing the breeding (its a fairly gradual process, not 1 or 2 years). Of course, the non-studs will get lucky every now and then (but won't be bedding down with 9 does).
Not gonna argue too much over someone else's work, but this is just one small quote from the whole book (and it does say "most"). I don't think the author says that only the best bucks will pass on their genes, but that over time with a well balanced deer herd, a greater percentage of genetically superior bucks will be doing the breeding (its a fairly gradual process, not 1 or 2 years). Of course, the non-studs will get lucky every now and then (but won't be bedding down with 9 does).
06-04-2007 | 02:36 PM
#98
Joined: Feb 2007
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Perception of Good Genetics.
Is good genetics large antlers or body strengthand endurence?
I have seen film of a smaller rack buck whipping the tar out of a rack bruiser. May have been the age thing. Over time the body strength traits will be the survivors.
Good topic anddiscussion. Bottom line is they have to get some age.
Is good genetics large antlers or body strengthand endurence?
I have seen film of a smaller rack buck whipping the tar out of a rack bruiser. May have been the age thing. Over time the body strength traits will be the survivors.
Good topic anddiscussion. Bottom line is they have to get some age.
06-04-2007 | 09:49 PM
#99
Joined: Oct 2005
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
I think many confuse QDM with big bucks. From what I understand (and I am certainly not an expert) it is more about age structure and buck to doe ratio. Big bucks are just a natural by product. I know here in Oklahoma are harvest of bucks average 1.5 years old and we have way too many does running around. Therefore mostly what you see when you go hunting is a bunch of little knotheads.
06-05-2007 | 07:24 AM
#100
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Good point Okiaros,
QDMA is not about the racks, it is about restoring deer herds to a 2-1 doe buck ratio or better. 1-1 is best, but often impossible, and as QDMA seeks to balance hunter satisfaction, 2-1 or better is the goal.
If you aren't shooting every buck you see and passing on every doe you see (as a lot of people were taught to hunt) it will change your deer herd for the better - as you said better age and social structure. That in turn will probably lead to more mature age bucks who happen to have bigger racks. It does not change the genetics of your herd, but works to maximize the genetic potential of your herd.
QDMA is not about the racks, it is about restoring deer herds to a 2-1 doe buck ratio or better. 1-1 is best, but often impossible, and as QDMA seeks to balance hunter satisfaction, 2-1 or better is the goal.
If you aren't shooting every buck you see and passing on every doe you see (as a lot of people were taught to hunt) it will change your deer herd for the better - as you said better age and social structure. That in turn will probably lead to more mature age bucks who happen to have bigger racks. It does not change the genetics of your herd, but works to maximize the genetic potential of your herd.