"Margin for error"
 

Another post got me to thinking......

What's YOUR "margin for error" on a:

1 - 20 yd shot
2 - 30 yd shot
etc...?

I honestly haven't thought of it.....but "I" think a 2-3" margin at 30 yds is something I can live with. It's not something I STRIVE for (for I think we ALL strive for perfection).....but what's the general consensus (if that's a fair question)?

When I shoot my 3D deer in the yard (from several angles)........I know when I've exceeded my personal allowance for what I would consider a "poor" shot. I have, on occasion, stacked arrows in a 30 yd group. I don't do it every time, though. I also don't atempt these shots very often in the field.

My last round of 3D with Rob/PA .....we both averaged better than a 10 ring in 20 targets (ranging from 16-43 yds).....with the majority being in the 30+ yd range. THAT is what I'm striving for.

What's "acceptable"? What's "reality"? Do you even think about this?

RE: "Margin for error"
 

GMMAT,
Are you asking in relation to 3-D/target shooting or hunting with broadheads? If I'm practicing with field points and I miss by 2-3 inches at 30 yards, I'm kicking myself and trying to figure out what I did wrong. As far as broadheads go, right now I'm at my wits end trying to get them to fly right and right now I'd be thrilled with a 2-3" margin of error at 30 yards.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

LC....

Maybe I just got lucky with my setup on my ally.....but I tinker a lot with my bow. After switching to 125gr heads on my broadheads.....my arrows flew more true. Both my SB and the ally shoot BH's just like FP's.

My question "could" relate to either application, though (3D and hunting).

20 yds and in.........I think I should hit the SPOT I'm looking at. 30 yds.....and I'm not that accomplished to think I can hit it EVERY time. I'm comfortable with a 2" margin, there. I hope I'm not making anyone mad by stating my honest assessment. Do I hit that 2" margin EVERY TIME (3D and hunting)? Nope. But I do it WAY more often than not.....and I'm comfortable whenI hit a 10 ring on a target at that distance......and I'm OK with that margin on an animal.

Have Imade a bad shot? yes. Have I taken a bad shot? No.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I think it all depends on if you talking for target shooting, deer hunting, turkey hunting...etc.

I think that 2-3" is very acceptable, however on a turkey an inch can mean all the difference in the world.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

How well your equipment (bow and arrows) is tuned increases your margin for error subsequently decreasing your grouping.

Just yesterday I was playing with a concept and it is proving to be something that I've never heard discussed before. I've got to do some further testing before I discuss it further, but it is a very inexpensive method that controls the string and actually affects the tuning of the bow. I'll be discussing it with those attending my seminar in hopes that I can get the attendees to help with the testing process.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

WHATS THE OLD RULE OF THUMB, IF YOU CANT HIT A PIE PLATE ACURATLY?

RE: "Margin for error"
 

It's clear from your post that you didn't understand my point in the other thread.

A3" margin of error TO START is unacceptable to me on aLIVE moving target. Any movement of that live target or any yipping of the shot by the hunter can equal disaster very easily.

You are making it sound like a 3" margin of error means you know you are gonna hit within 3" of where you are aiming. If that is the case then great........but it's not. It's the BEST you can hope for when you are STARTING with a 3" margin of error.........your PERFECT shot will still miss by 3".........anything less then perfect and who knows??.....could be anything from a terrible wound to a complete miss.........maybe even a quick kill......too many variables for me.

A 3" miss as my WORST case scenerio???.........SURE........but as my BEST case scenerio??? Not a chance.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

This thread has nothing to do with you, Atlas.

That's not being malicious.......just truthful. And...I've never shot at a moving target.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I dont have any problems getting my BH to fly true like my field points. I shoot just as good of scores with my BH as i do with a field tip. There is a couple of 3-d BH courses by me. So i feel that where I am aming without a dought is where my arrow is going. I dont feel that I have a margin of error like your talking aobut. If i miss 6" to the right then i was aiming 6" to the right.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

Not sure I understand this hall......why would you aim 6" to the right?

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I don't quiteunderstand what you're looking for, but ifyou're asking do I always hit where I want to the answer is no. I don't think of it in terms as "margin of error"I just know that every shot isn't perfect.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

Fair enough gutshot.....but the reason I'm looking....is I would "think" we'd all take longer shots at animals.....if we thought we were going to hit EXACTLY what we were aiming for EVERY time we shot.

I shoot from 50 and 60 yds at my house. I have to maneuver a little to do it, sometimes......but it's good practice. If I could hit the 12 ring on my 3D deer EVERY TIME from 60 yds.....I can tell you my effective kill zone would likely expand. I can't. I know ifI couldn't hit what I was looking at at 10 yds......I wouldn't shoot from that distance. But...I can. In between these two yardages, however,.....I've come to feel comfortable with a degree of imperfection......my "margin for error". I restrict my shots to fit within this range. I was just wondering what everyone considered THEIR"acceptable" "margin for error".

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I understand what you are asking perfectly. you are asking, "what is an acceptable miss from your point of aim?"

At 30 yds I'd expect to be within3 inches of whereI aim on deer by hunting season. Obviosly, the closer to the targetI am that distance shrinks.
Meaning that at 20 yds I really do not expect to hit more than 2" from my aiming point.

I intend to practice wellpast the 30 yd mark so that 30 is comfortable. Does that mean whenI practiceI expect to be at that point, no. At 20 ydsI expect to put just about every arrow in a 1.5" dot. At 30 close to the same thing.

By following that rule I'm saying that right nowI wouldn't shoot past 30 yds at a deer sized game even ifI can stay within that area on a target. Everything gets magnified when it comes to shooting an animal comapred to a target.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

At one point you mention a "spot" at 20 yards that you need to be able to hit. How big is this spot?

When sighting in my bow I use the orange dots for targets that you can use on rifle targets. I start out with the big dot at 10 yards and sight in trying to hit the black square in the middle. That black square is maybe 1/2" by 1/2". I can't hit it every time, but when I do fairly regularly I move back to 20. At 20 I want my arrows inside the 2" circle on the big dot and hovering close the the square. When I've got this down I move out to 30. At 30 yards I use the 2 1/2" dot and when I've got my arrows punching this I go to 40. At 40 and 50 I use the big dot again which is about 4" in diameter. Once I'm sinking arrows into that at those distances I work out to 80 using a CD. If I can consistently smack a CD sized target at 70 yards I'm pretty happy. Now these are under perfect conditions on static targets.

While hunting I keep my shots inside of 35 yards unless I have some absolutely perfect conditions then I might stretch it to 40. I say might because I haven't yet.

As for margin of error, I want to hit where I am aiming, but realize there is a lot that can happen while hunting. If I am within 2" of where I was aiming I can accept that. Other than that I'm not happy, but if it leads to a successful harvest that is what it's all about. Within reason of course.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

If the speed of sound is roughly 1100 ft/sec or 761 miles per hour.. and our bows shoot roughly 250-300ft/sec ... other varialbles..like stated above.. vital area size.. example turkey versus elk.... etc..

Factor in a living animals fight or flight response to stimulus such as sound waves from our bows firing.

The longer the shot the more time a critter has to gather/react before the arrow strikes its target.

I think no more than1.5 to 2inches of error should be considered for 30-40 yard shots on deer...sized vitals..maybe less because of distance and reaction time..

close shots.. 20yrds.. 1 inch max, theres no good reason for a well practiced bowhunter and a properly tuned flat shooting compound bow to miss by more than 1 inch at 20 yards or less...yes it allows less time for the animal to react..but still a 20 yard shot with a compound bow should be a slam dunk.

I'm going with no more than 2 inch...is acceptible for shots on live animals like elk, deerout to 40 yrds, that maybe too much on deer..

I dont know maybe I am off base here....If nothing else this post got me thinking about my own shooting..am I holding myself toahigh enoughstandard in my practicing.

For stationary target practiceI better be no more than 1 inch out to 40... ???

RE: "Margin for error"
 

Not to defend your buddy..but he makesa valid case. I think you may be so intent on finding fault with his statement that you fail to see that this time he makes sense.

It wasn't stated that you shoot, at moving game..but at any point that game may move on it's own, with or without your consent.
A 3" miss from a given pin-head dot is probably fine if you had proper placement of the pin-head.However 3" miss from a 3" diameter dot is not very good! That could put you nearly 6" out!

Just like anything if you think failure, you will fail, aim- breath- squeeze knowing you'll hit that spot. That will keep you from taking that quick peek that most misses are the result of!

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I limit my effective maximum range to the distance that I can keep all my shots in the black circle on my Block target with broadheads; right now that's 40 yards.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

[>:]I'm jealous.[>:] I'll get there eventually.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

Y'all are making me feel like I really need to start practicing more. This thread is making my trigger finger itch.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

The black dots on my yellowjacket bag are approx. 1 inch diameter. I aim for a different dot on each shot. If my arrow is not at least touching the black dot on every shot, then "I" did something wrong. This is the way I practice regardless of distance. Obviously, I'm not yet able to accomplish this on every shot at every distance. I guess this means that my margin for error is 1/2 inch.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I kinda understand now. To try to answer I'll say that I shoot1 pin that's locked in at 25 yards for hunting. With this 1 pin I can effectively kill a deer from point blank to around 40 yards without having to compensate much. I feel comfortable with that.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

RE: "Margin for error"
 

Grow up Atlas, you whine like a 2 year old when someone does this to one of your threads.

No different than you whining about GMMAT posting something just to argue.

I forgot you only speak the truth[:'(]

Stop acting like a pompous arse

RE: "Margin for error"
 

You can have this one, too, Atlas....I'll move on.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I would say no more than 2" from where you are aiming, so a 4" group centered around perfect center... for deer. A little bigger for caribou, a little bigger for elk, bigger yet for moose, and very very tiny for a chipmunk.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

Atlas the great quote poster. It gets a little old after a while.

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RE: "Margin for error"
 

Atlas ..... so many agree with Germ here ..... stop acting like a punk ...


Jeff, by a 3" margin of error, do you mean 1 1/2" from center?

RE: "Margin for error"
 

But you see, you've already induced a margin of error that to manyof us is unacceptable. In the range you're talking about I really doubt that you're within the kill zone. you're inducing fringe hits on a paper target. Add a real live animal and you've created a miss or a bad hit. Someone mentioned the old pie plate. Maybe if you're shooting a recurve and don't practice a lot. LOL Really, the old pie plate puts a lot of arrows where they shouldn't be.

As far as my margin of error. I pick and choose and do whateve I have to to get broadheads to shoot with my field points. So my margin of error is not different. A 3 inch margin of error gives you a 6 inch circle. That's getting mighty big and in my opinion, unacceptable when shooting paper. On an actual hunt I hope for far less. I aim for "The Spot" and when I miss it..... it's unacceptable. I'll take all the lucky breaks I can get, but I still don't like to miss what I aim at. That's one reason I could never be a one pin kind of guy. Before I'd do that I'd throw away all the sights and shoot instinctively.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I replied back to GR8, yesterday via PM....and said that the time I had the deer at what I "thought" was 24-27 yds..........I put the top pin a little high on the SPOT I was aiming at.....allowing for a little arrow "drop" (2"?). So, effectively.....(and this was my train of thought).....I'm aiming EXACTLY 2-3" high on the spot (due to the angle from an elevated perch). At that range.....if I'm 2" high.....it's a double-lung shot and hopefully a quick recovery. My "margin for error" was the fact that I didn't know the EXACT yarage. I hadn't ranged that EXACT tree before (he was lifting his head to work a licking branch on a scrape).....but I HAD ranged trees around him. I honestly wouldn't have fared any better if I'd had my rangefinder in my pocket.

"High/Low".....did I hit "low"? Yes. In my eyes it was. "Front/back" did I hit my spot? You bet. I was confident I could.....or I wouldn't have loosed the arrow.

The original premise of the thread was to show that EVEN when we do everything "right" (in our own, individual eyes)......there are STILL times when an animal is COMPLETELY MISSED. As much as it happens.....it's still a little hard to explain, sometimes.

Shot selection is extremely personal and goes back to ethics. I think I took an ethical shot...based on the thought process I utilized. I'm not defending that....because I don't have to. I was wondering what others used as their thought process.....and I appreciate the replies.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

We all have to set goals and to keep raising the bar as we meet those goals. 3" to 2" to 1" and beyond.Most can't start at thebestlevel because frustration would get the better of us. For those who have actually reached the best levels of accuracy - congratulations. And those who embellish their accomplishments - there are many.

I tell my customers that I show off to in the shop that I do it so that they can see achievement and tell them that they can get to those levels if they do what I first stated above. Sometimes it takes a PRO recognizing form errors or equipment problems. If you seem to be stuck at a certain level, seek true Professional help. If you can't get beyond a certain level, accept it and adjust your 'effective range' to reflect your limitations. We can't all be 'Robin Hoods'.[:@];)

One more thing that many don't consider is environmental shooting. Many will only practice on solid ground, in good weather, with short-sleeved shirts - you get my drift. Take your game to a treestand with a little wind and make sure you wear ALL your hunting clothing. You might be surprised how things will change.;)

Another way to practice during the season and this is better if you're a morning hunter. Take with you one or two arrows that have Judo tips on them. Guesstimate a leaf or other object and try to shoot it just before leaving your stand. Make the object a challenge and you'll both challenge and test your real skills. It's quite a confidence builder when you're successful.

Good luck and good shooting.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

David I understand your point but I've had no problem shooting at paper or killing deer over the last 10-15 years that I've used a 1 pin set up so I don't see me switching back anytime soon. Butlike everything else they're not for everyboby.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

That's pretty much what I alway have done for years, both morningand evening hunts, except I have a few arrows marked as practice arrows and I use broadheads. Once in a while I may bury one in a root or such, but not too often.Oh, and I don't necessarily shoot them just before leaving my stand. Just whenever I feel like it. :)

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I'm not sure if I'm looking at this the way you are asking(GMMAT) but I know from practice that at 45yrds. I will have a group about 2''.
Not from the spot, per see , but a 2" group w/ maybe a flyer in there sometimes. 2-3 in.'s is what I consider my margin for error. In a hunting situation I would never shoot 45yrds. To allow for the variables that could occur I keet my shots under 35yrds. Unless the aminal does a tail spin when I release I know it will produce a kill shot even if I've misjudged the yardage by 3 or 4 yrds. We all know bow speed will have a slight affect on this variable , but that comes w/ knowing your equipment.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

But in your "rangefinder not needed any more thread" you said the rangefinder was unnecasary because you knew your hunting area so well.;)

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I've never defined my acceptable margin of error. I just know. I hate having to "adjust" my pin, I want to put it exactly where I expect to hit which is why most of my shots are very close. Yea when I went out west I had to practice and gap shoot and all that, which really wasn't too hard, but I just prefer to keep things as error proof asI can.

RE: "Margin for error"
 

I feel 2" at 20 yards and 3" at 30 (in the field) would be an acceptical margin of error in my shoes! But as MH said, it all depends on the target, especially turkeys.