Made some changes...
 

When i posted pics of my new guardian some of the people questioned the shooting from the string and how it was pinching off the nock. Well i made some changes. I went from a 26.5" draw to a 25.5" draw with a d-loop. I wanted to post some pics to see what you pros think about my changes. Now if you say my draw is still too long remember I can only go to a 25" for the Guardian, but i have to say i am shooting some really tight groups how my setup is now.


and a close up

RE: Made some changes...
 

I would recommend not forcing your fingers open in your bow hand. Allow the hand to relax. Close the mouth because as mobow mentioned, the flies.;) Nock looks much better and safer.:D

RE: Made some changes...
 

I'm by far an expert, but I still say you're too long....But mostly, you need to relax. Your bow hand is too rigid, and while you don't want your bow arm locked out straight, that's too much bend if you ask me....So maybe if you straighten that arm out a little your DL will bebetter?? Maybe???

I was gonna mention the flies, but........I'm just sayin...;)

RE: Made some changes...
 

Thanks Mo and Rob. I took the pic in my room with no target and was a little worried about shooting a hole through the wall on accident.

Rob...i had a guy at the shop i went to today helping me shoot and he said to put more force into my bowhand. Why would he tell me that?

oh and the mouth thing...well i cant help that. It's habit from putting the arrow in the corner of my mouth.

RE: Made some changes...
 

The biggest flaw in most archers today is the bow hand. It should be as relaxed as can be without losing the bow. Any torque, pressure in the bow hand will esculate the loss of the arrow down range. I don't know why anyone would tell you to put more force in the the bowhand. The fingers should curl around the bow naturally, not gripped, not open but curled.

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I guess the force he's talking about is from push/pull.....You pull with your release hand, and push with your bow hand.....But I'm not really sure that' what he was referring to.

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Agreed, that would be in the bow arm, not hand wouldn't you agree?

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I see something that I addressed in one of my seminars last year. I'll just hold back to see if someone else sees what I see. ;)

RE: Made some changes...
 

Yes, Rob, I agree.

Len, are you referring to his head leaning forward, not in line w/ his spine?

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Dang man, you gotta a short DL...how tall are you?

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That's definately one thing and if he'd get the tip of his nose back up on the string it'd striaghten up the alignment. Arrow is quite long too.

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Len, are you referring to the loop being tied wrong?

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Head position is part of it.

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lol, thats funny but at the same time not very nice. Well at least you didn't ask how long his dinger was. That would be crossing the line! [:-]

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Haha i know Matt, and im not trying to be mean, i was just surprised in his draw length...

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Yea, he's a short little guy with stubby arms...I drew back 25" when I was in 3rd grade.:D:D

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hahaha LMAO :D

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Lmao, Im 5'7". Len i'd really like to know what you are talking about since I'd like to improve now before the season starts again.

RE: Made some changes...
 

HIs release elbow is to high. It all should be in a pretty straight line. He's got his release arm albow jacked way up there. Also, it's hard to tell from the picture but he appears to have too much palm in the shot.

P.S. I didn't get any nice black Bowtech shirt with my Guardian. I got a hat. LOL

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Thanks david...oh and i ordered my shirt off their website. on the back it says "this aint your daddy's bow"

RE: Made some changes...
 

One of my seminars last year discussed the difference between tournament verses hunting setup. There were at least 12 differences that were discussed.

We look at tournament archers, and because they are successful/accurate, gleen from them things that, when taken into the field under hunting circumstances, can cause problems. Some of them are body positioning (which includes head position), string position (as it relates to the body/clothing), and anchor points. Let's take just these three one at a time and assume that hunting is our main agenda.

Body positioning. This should be such that the acquisition of the peep andits direct relationship to the sight ring are quickly accessed. Why? Because the hunting target is moving and illusive. If hunting outof atreestand, weight should be on the front leg. Keep in mind that body positioning is a more extensive subject too deep to cover here.

String positioning should be studied with an effort to keep it as far away from the chest as possible. Why? Because hunters usually wear heavy clothing which can cause string deflection and subsequent arrow deflection.

Anchor points. The release handanchor point should be very repetitive and stable. The string on the end of the nose (except when eyeglasses have to be worn) is another anchor point that dictates a stable/heads upview towards the peep. And the peep, when the otheranchor points fall in line, should be immediately focused/in line to the sight ring.

Now, if you study the pictures carefully, you should see the things that I see.;) Also, the bent arm is exaggerated down whereas the bend should be out and not as extreme as it appears.

There are quite a few otherthings that I would change for a hunter and I could give you very logical reasons for those changes. A tournament shooter, however, can get away with things that would annoy a good hunting setup. After all, the seminar went on for more than an hour.

Now, let the flaming begin.:D

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I'm surprised I didn't get any arguments or questions from the tournament guys. I guessmost of them have come tounderstand the differences. That's a good thing.:)

Anyway, I recently changed Davidmil's anchor points slightly and got some good feedback from him. He's going to miss me!;):D

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Len:

From my very LIMITED experience with "tournament" archers (at my local 3D shoots).....they need to worry about ONE thing....and ONE thing, only....to help transfer their accuracy to hunting situations.

They need to work on finding a deer that will sit there for 10 minutes while they go through their pre-shot routine.

:D:D:D;)

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ROTFLMAO

I've never thought to put it that way. You've got a way with words.;):D

RE: Made some changes...
 

One thing that I notice is that your draw length is probably still a little long. When standing up straight your iris of your eye should line up with the end of your nock, and with your belly button. This should all be one straight vertical line. One good thing is that you are not leaning back, so it is not WAY too long. Len covered some good points for if you are going to be using your bow for hunting primarily, but you do want to straighten up a bit so your bow arm is parallel to the floor and your back elbow and wrist should create a line parallel to the arrow. With the loop your arrow looks good and as Rob said you should relax that bow hand. I had a guy tell me once that you want your bow to be in your hand as though your were holding a baby bird. That is you are containing the bow, but very relaxed and gently.

Apply these things and what the others have said and you should be in good shape. That is if while thinking about everything you've been told you don't develop target panic.[:@]

RE: Made some changes...
 

Your draw length now is most likely ok........your use of it isn't IMO.

You need to transpose everything forward a little bit......get your arm more straight and bring the anchor forward to stay "behind the shot".
The push pull thing IMO doesn't work on compounds, its to hard to repeat the pressures involved and you will wind up with variances in hand pressure and torquing forces on the grip.

Treat your bow arm like a 2X4 with your shoulder down and in a locked bone on bone position with good relaxed hand placement. and FORGET IT. From there on out you simply pull with your back muscles. Both hand should be relaxed and PULL only.

I could get into a bunch of stuff from those first pics but first and foremost scrap that anchor and bow arm style.

I included a pic of my "Tournament style" ;)form. I have actually since shortened my draw length myself 1/2 " on a longer ATA style bow to maintain my consistent set of reference points and to be able to stay behind the shot even better on uphill , downhill shots. I will actually mess with loop length in 1/8" increments to get things just right.

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Matt's picture shows a perfect example of what I was talking about. You can draw a straight vertical line from his iris to the nock, all the way down to his belt buckle. His back elbow is actually a little high, but he is an experienced archer and can get away with that without having adverse affects. The main thing is the back arm is straight from elbow to anchor. Look at his bow arm as well. It looks solid and stable. This is what you want. If you straighten up you should be able to achieve this. Take it all one step at a time as Matt said.

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Thanks guys. I will work on all of your tips and post another pic in a few weeks, cuz i know this isnt going to happen over night.

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Uhhhhhhh..............what??? That could mean several things, but apparently somebody is going somewhere??????

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Davidmil is moving from Maryland to upstate New York. I'm going to miss him as well. He's my friend and we've shared a lot of hunting time together. He promises to come back to Maryland to hunt with my son and me and has invited us to New York anytime we can make it. Anyone who is lucky enough to enjoy Dave's friendship is certainly blessed.

As far as Matt's picture, it's one of the best crosses between tournament and hunting form that you can get. Congrats Matt.;)

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The moving packers come in 11 days. Ya'll will get a break, I'll be out of internet for a few days or more. I have to meet the truck in NY on the 26 or 27th and come back to Maryland the 30th for settlement on this house. They said it would take them a week or so to turn on my cable service. I didn't want to do it yet because I'd have to have a TV there and have someone meet the guys. Yup, I've been to Len's shop almost every day for the past month or so just packing in the fun while I can. I'll have to come back down every 6 months or so for a bow tune up. LOL I've been spoiled. I have to have my bow MacRotechized.:D:D The rest of the world just doesn't know what they don't have.

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Well best of luck with the move, sir. Hope it goes well, I was a little worried there for minute.........I mean.....It wouldn't be the first time someone's....................disappeared...[&:][&:][&:]

Wish I was a little closer to Len myself.....that's a shop I would like to visit someday.

RE: Made some changes...
 

what is a macrotecherized bow???

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As far as Matt's picture, it's one of the best crosses between tournament and hunting form that you can get. Congrats Matt.;)

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Aw shucks.......you're makin me blush.:)

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Matt:

Not so fast.

"...one of the best crosses..." May be something like cross-dressing!:D:D

Just kidding. But hunting form, IMPO, should allow a lot more flexibility while maintaining certain rigidity in thecase of anchor points. The reason is that the target is unpredictable and the conditions and circumstances can change drastically.

My first question to my customers is what archery discipline intent they have. If it's mainly hunting, which is by far the norm, theyI approach the training toward that end. Ground or stand hunting, for instance,will dictate slight changes in form.

So, to say that something must be 'straight' or 'in line' or dictated in any one way is not always true when hunting. Anchor points, however, are still critical.

Hope this helps some understand the reasons for the differences.

RE: Made some changes...
 

Quote:

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Just kidding. But hunting form, IMPO, should allow a lot more flexibility while maintaining certain rigidity in thecase of anchor points. The reason is that the target is unpredictable and the conditions and circumstances can change drastically.

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This is why I don'texactly have proper indoor spot form.......I need a little hunting form flexibility built in which is why my stance is the way it is and why it's so important for me to be able to (what I call)"stay behind the shot".
I compete in 3D archery only and the demands of shooting in uneven terrain where I might be shooting 40 yards on a 30 degree angle UPHILL on one shot only to turn around and shoot the same distance DOWNHILL.
I need that blend of precision and flexibility.....and of course the foam ain't goin' anywhere so the shot progression is ALL target archery.

When I get into a treestand in the fall, the form is there but the shot progression is much quicker and simply transferred to a different style release that will allow me to shoot as quickly as needed or precisely as needed......everything I do is so repeatable that I can speed up or slow down the process as much as I want and for the most part still get a similar end result

As long as everything else is done properly I (or anyone else)can get away with a surprising amount of command or "punch" in the trigger which is often (reads almost always)a demand in real life hunting situations....... If the archer isn't tuned hunting accuracy will suffer in the transition.

PS. Choose your release wisely!;)IMO from experience heavy, no travel double sear releases that lend themselves to target archerycan bea liability in the woods.

RE: Made some changes...
 

I agree a ton with what Len has said, even when you look at guys that are indoor spottie shooters only they will vary draw length and form a bit depending on what form of indoor spots they are shooting. NAA (Inner baby X's, rest of yellow 9's) guys will shorten their draw length just a hair which will allow your float to be much smaller, however when you get an erratic shot they tend to miss a bit more but it doesn't matter because all of the yellow is a 9. How when they are shooting 5 spot, they tend to lengthen draw length a bit to allow for a slower more controlled float, however that float covers a bigger area. I vary draw length by about 3/16-1/4" of an inch between 3D/Field and spot/FITA rigs to help me "stay behind" the shots for up and downhill shots that field and 3D present. I also shoot a full half inch shorter dl for hunting than I do for indoors for those shots on really wacky footing and when your off balanced, etc like in a treestand.

Here I am in 3D form last year. I would imagine this is a bit more stretched out than Len likes for hunting.



Here I am in spot form, even more stretched out. Not much, but I am about 3/16" longer here and I am shooting the same model bow as the picture above. Look at my rear elbow position compared to the 3D pic. It isa touch lower and in line with the arrow. I float much slower with the stretched out form like the pic below, but it is difficult to stay behind it for up and down hill shots.