Horn Farming
04-10-2007, 10:11 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ND
Posts: 1,627
RE: Horn Farming
ORIGINAL: davidmil
What you guys are doing Tim, GMMAT etc is no way or shape the same as the Tecomate Deer Farm. And you know I didn't mean that kind of hunting so don't try to start something.
What you guys are doing Tim, GMMAT etc is no way or shape the same as the Tecomate Deer Farm. And you know I didn't mean that kind of hunting so don't try to start something.
I've drawna line for what a hunt is to me. I try to stay away from expecting, demanding or bashingothers to draw that same line. I don't care if someone doesn't like how I hunt. I am pretty sure you are the same from all the years of posts/replies of your's I have read.I wouldassume the same ofothers.
I have drawnmy line, you have drawnyours, Dave Morris has his and everyone else has theirs. Mosthaven't drawn the same line though and life goes on. If we all had... we must just like to bicker cause you see a lot of it on this forum and others when these hot topics come up.
Tim
04-11-2007, 06:34 AM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 2,849
RE: Horn Farming
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr
My arse....Oh man....here I go again........First, I don't fault ANYONE deciding they will or won't shoot a certain deer....If you have self imposed standards, hey....Best of luck....
But I see and hear this same statement quite frequently, and I'm sorry.....It's all about horns.....What happens when you let bucks get older? They grow bigger horns. On top of that, the older a buck gets the more difficult they are to kill, thus....more age and bigger horns. This QDM movement is ruining deer hunting if you ask me. It's no longer about hunting, it's about money. Big horns = big bucks, and that's all there is too it. Yes, I understand there needs to be a balance in the herd....Age and ratio are indeed important, but if it's all about a healthy deer herd......How come the deer population has exploded in the last 20 years? I can only speak for Missouri, but we haven't started "practicing" QDM except for the last 4 years, and they are ALREADY talking about raising the cost of both resident and non resident permits.......Hm, I wonder why that is??
Our antler restrictions are only in 19 counties in the state.....That's not even 1/4 of the state.....They say it's to shift the harvest to does, but out of those 19 counties there are several where you can only shoot 2 anyway.....BUT, those are counties that are already known for big bucks.....
It's total hog wash......But politics in general is.....Every decision made is sold on the premise that we are too stupid to make decisions ourselves, and rules need to be made for OUR best interests....But this isn't the forum to get into that, so I better not....
ORIGINAL: huntingson
David, I agree with what you said 100% right up to the point where you blame his actions on QDM. QDM is about AGE and sex ratiosnot antler size, so he is not practicing QDM. He is, as you put it, farming for antlers. There is a big difference.
David, I agree with what you said 100% right up to the point where you blame his actions on QDM. QDM is about AGE and sex ratiosnot antler size, so he is not practicing QDM. He is, as you put it, farming for antlers. There is a big difference.
But I see and hear this same statement quite frequently, and I'm sorry.....It's all about horns.....What happens when you let bucks get older? They grow bigger horns. On top of that, the older a buck gets the more difficult they are to kill, thus....more age and bigger horns. This QDM movement is ruining deer hunting if you ask me. It's no longer about hunting, it's about money. Big horns = big bucks, and that's all there is too it. Yes, I understand there needs to be a balance in the herd....Age and ratio are indeed important, but if it's all about a healthy deer herd......How come the deer population has exploded in the last 20 years? I can only speak for Missouri, but we haven't started "practicing" QDM except for the last 4 years, and they are ALREADY talking about raising the cost of both resident and non resident permits.......Hm, I wonder why that is??
Our antler restrictions are only in 19 counties in the state.....That's not even 1/4 of the state.....They say it's to shift the harvest to does, but out of those 19 counties there are several where you can only shoot 2 anyway.....BUT, those are counties that are already known for big bucks.....
It's total hog wash......But politics in general is.....Every decision made is sold on the premise that we are too stupid to make decisions ourselves, and rules need to be made for OUR best interests....But this isn't the forum to get into that, so I better not....
Now where we will definitely agree is that hunting has become way too expensive. Heck, in Ontario one used to be able to buy a bear tag for $19 and just go hunt. Now you are required to havea guide, and many fellow hunters who wanted to hunt bear could no longer afford it. Catering to the wealthy is wrong, but that is not due to QDM, it is due to the greed of governments, and that is a completely different issue.
04-11-2007, 06:52 AM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,102
RE: Horn Farming
Different strokes for different folks.Being that specific and precise about what you are going to kill and when would definitely take the spirit out of the hunt for me!Being selective in a non fenced fair chase environment I personally am very comfortable with and in agreement with,but when science plays as big a role as what David was describing,that turns me off.
I am hesitant to rip into it because I don't want to divide our ranks.What Montana Dave was describing,I understand and appreciate the bow hunting only aspect of it.It would not be some thing I would wish to do though.
I am hesitant to rip into it because I don't want to divide our ranks.What Montana Dave was describing,I understand and appreciate the bow hunting only aspect of it.It would not be some thing I would wish to do though.
04-11-2007, 10:00 AM
#44
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Horn Farming
I didn't go thru all the posts....lunch break is only an hour
But my thoughts.....the "farming" that is practiced on many texas ranches (and other places) is well beond QDM, that is tru antler farming. Once you start the practice of "culling" and reduce pressure and spare every single buck until the age of 6.5, you are farming. they may as well be cattle. It's antler management for the highest scoring trophy.When a4.5 yr old 130" 8 pt is a cull buck, there is something wrong. A mature buck, regardless of what he tops out at, is an impressive accomplishment.
Now I am all for letting young bucks grow up, but when it comes to farming them.....It's not my thing.
But my thoughts.....the "farming" that is practiced on many texas ranches (and other places) is well beond QDM, that is tru antler farming. Once you start the practice of "culling" and reduce pressure and spare every single buck until the age of 6.5, you are farming. they may as well be cattle. It's antler management for the highest scoring trophy.When a4.5 yr old 130" 8 pt is a cull buck, there is something wrong. A mature buck, regardless of what he tops out at, is an impressive accomplishment.
Now I am all for letting young bucks grow up, but when it comes to farming them.....It's not my thing.
04-11-2007, 10:40 AM
#45
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 131
RE: Horn Farming
Rybohunter,
I kinda disagree with you, and thats OK. Not about to take shots at you. I think its all relative and regional. There are ranches around mine that a 130-inch is a "cull". There is nothing wrong with that. Anywhere "management" is involved, (as you said you pass on smaller deer) you have to shoot X-number of bucks and doe's per year to prevent overpopulating and overgrazing.
I couldn't agree more, it is absolutely just like cattle. Just more profitable. Not saying there is anything wrong with raising cattle, are you? Might not be your cup of tea, but paying to hunt is the way things are done down here with little exception.
I know in my heart if your family homesteaded a cattle ranch in the 1800's, you would not be trying to raise the best doe's, would you? Of course not!Everyone wants to shoot the best buck they can. Anyone that say's they would prefer a smaller buck is being dishonest. Its OK to practice a little "management",just in some places a 130-class deerIS a "cull".
By the way, one of the biggest deer I have ever seen in my life came from a high-fence operation in Pennsylvania. It was shot by the Sheriff of Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. Taxidermist friend did a full body mount of it. MONSTER!!!
I kinda disagree with you, and thats OK. Not about to take shots at you. I think its all relative and regional. There are ranches around mine that a 130-inch is a "cull". There is nothing wrong with that. Anywhere "management" is involved, (as you said you pass on smaller deer) you have to shoot X-number of bucks and doe's per year to prevent overpopulating and overgrazing.
I couldn't agree more, it is absolutely just like cattle. Just more profitable. Not saying there is anything wrong with raising cattle, are you? Might not be your cup of tea, but paying to hunt is the way things are done down here with little exception.
I know in my heart if your family homesteaded a cattle ranch in the 1800's, you would not be trying to raise the best doe's, would you? Of course not!Everyone wants to shoot the best buck they can. Anyone that say's they would prefer a smaller buck is being dishonest. Its OK to practice a little "management",just in some places a 130-class deerIS a "cull".
By the way, one of the biggest deer I have ever seen in my life came from a high-fence operation in Pennsylvania. It was shot by the Sheriff of Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. Taxidermist friend did a full body mount of it. MONSTER!!!
04-11-2007, 11:34 AM
#46
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Horn Farming
Dave, just curious, what was the name of that operation in PA? If it is the one I'm thinking of it is around our gun camp. We pass it when going to visit a buddy's camp and you can see the bull elk lined up along the fence at night. They are monsters.
04-11-2007, 12:14 PM
#48
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Wisconsin and Canada
Posts: 2,415
RE: Horn Farming
ORIGINAL: huntingson
Now where we will definitely agree is that hunting has become way too expensive. Heck, in Ontario one used to be able to buy a bear tag for $19 and just go hunt. Now you are required to havea guide, and many fellow hunters who wanted to hunt bear could no longer afford it. Catering to the wealthy is wrong, but that is not due to QDM, it is due to the greed of governments, and that is a completely different issue.
Now where we will definitely agree is that hunting has become way too expensive. Heck, in Ontario one used to be able to buy a bear tag for $19 and just go hunt. Now you are required to havea guide, and many fellow hunters who wanted to hunt bear could no longer afford it. Catering to the wealthy is wrong, but that is not due to QDM, it is due to the greed of governments, and that is a completely different issue.
Now, off topic a little to set the record straight. Ontario went to Bear Management Areas, "BMAs" because of the over hunting of certain areas by non-residents. They are now required to stay with a guide and hunt thier BMAs so the MNR can get a better grip in the bear population and harvest. It had nothing to do with catering to the wealthy. It is my hope that the deer hunting will go the same way, or else it will just be like hunting public land in WI, MI, PA, etc.
04-11-2007, 02:50 PM
#49
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Horn Farming
Montana Dave,
I applaud you for disagreeing in such a polite, rational, manner. Sometimes that's hard to come by around here.
We are from 2 different worlds, that is for sure. I'm sure if I grew up in texas, that would be normal for me. I might pay some money to hunt a place that has naturally occuring potential, but I'd most likely never pay to hunt a strictly "farmed" ranch. Like I said, not my thing, but but if its a way for someone to make a living, I have nothing wrong with that.
My "perfect world" view of hunting is something to be enjoyed by all, where a person could feel they have a good shot at a mature deer and therefore be more willing to pass on younger bucks. BUt not in a situation where its severely forced and regulated. I feel the pressure to grow the biggest, best, fastest animal should be left to horseracing, not hunting.
I don't think anyone was saying they'd prefer a smaller buck, but I do think getting an "artificial" big buck, cheapens the moment.
I applaud you for disagreeing in such a polite, rational, manner. Sometimes that's hard to come by around here.
We are from 2 different worlds, that is for sure. I'm sure if I grew up in texas, that would be normal for me. I might pay some money to hunt a place that has naturally occuring potential, but I'd most likely never pay to hunt a strictly "farmed" ranch. Like I said, not my thing, but but if its a way for someone to make a living, I have nothing wrong with that.
My "perfect world" view of hunting is something to be enjoyed by all, where a person could feel they have a good shot at a mature deer and therefore be more willing to pass on younger bucks. BUt not in a situation where its severely forced and regulated. I feel the pressure to grow the biggest, best, fastest animal should be left to horseracing, not hunting.
I don't think anyone was saying they'd prefer a smaller buck, but I do think getting an "artificial" big buck, cheapens the moment.
04-11-2007, 03:58 PM
#50
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 131
RE: Horn Farming
Rybohunter,
In reality, what is there to get upset about? Nobody is going to change the way Texas does things, I guarantee that! That is how hunting is done in Texas. Like it? Dont like it? It really doesnt matter. There is too much $$$ involved now to change it.
I will tell anyone here, or anywhere-my favorite hunt is a pack-in bowhunt for elk in Montana! For me, that is as pure as it gets!!! I am tearing up just thinking about it. But it is a tough hunt, and I usually strike out. But I dont care.
But there are "bigger" elk in Texas. $15,000. apiece. How many you want? I will have you back to the house in time for breakfast.And dont worry aboutgutting, skinning, etc. That's already being done while you are eating your pancakesand calling your friend to tell him what a great hunter you are! No, I couldnt agree more- I see it everyday. $$$ cheapens the hunt. You are absolutely right.
But, it is what it is. Only you can decide what is for you.
In reality, what is there to get upset about? Nobody is going to change the way Texas does things, I guarantee that! That is how hunting is done in Texas. Like it? Dont like it? It really doesnt matter. There is too much $$$ involved now to change it.
I will tell anyone here, or anywhere-my favorite hunt is a pack-in bowhunt for elk in Montana! For me, that is as pure as it gets!!! I am tearing up just thinking about it. But it is a tough hunt, and I usually strike out. But I dont care.
But there are "bigger" elk in Texas. $15,000. apiece. How many you want? I will have you back to the house in time for breakfast.And dont worry aboutgutting, skinning, etc. That's already being done while you are eating your pancakesand calling your friend to tell him what a great hunter you are! No, I couldnt agree more- I see it everyday. $$$ cheapens the hunt. You are absolutely right.
But, it is what it is. Only you can decide what is for you.