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RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: bob d ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker Now thats a new approach from crossbow hunters, if you cant have your way (the hole 90 day season in my state), take it allaway! I kind of Figured you had one of those modern day Bolt launchers you were notshowing us. Question: Is a handicap hunter allowed to hunt with a crossbow in your state archery season? Fact is, I know it, you know it, and everyone on this forum knows that it takes no archery skills to shoot a crossbow! Oh really? I did not say that, You made an assumption! Lets see I have been on the MC pistol team, the 3rd MD skeet and trap team,shot the 1,000 yard range at Quantico, even helped write an SOP on shooting, Been shooting competitive Archery off and on for 40 years now, have shot a 300 with a recurve and fingers, 300/60X with compound, and carried a mid 280 average with 72# traditional hunting equipment on a league, and yes I have even shot a crossbow.So I think I have a pretty goodunderstanding of shooting in general. Now I have to make an assumption, I assume you are or was a 300 shooter, I mean seeings how you think all you have to to is yank the string back on a compound and tuch that trigger of on the release and that arrow goes right in the bulls eye or a deers heart! Since you think my statement was the dumbest you ever herd, here is your chance to shine bob. Post us a list of archery skills it takes to shoot a crossbow that are not the same as shooting a Rifle! And taking the bolt out of the quiver does not count! i hope none of you naysayers ever get hurt or disabled to the point that you cannot use a compound bow [/quote] |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: Arthur P Fact is, I know it, you know it, and everyone on this forum knows that it takes no archery skills to shoot a crossbow! Itsno secret, I shoot both and have shot all 3 enough to knowthat a Compound and traditional share the same basic archrey skills, wherea crossbowmanand a rifleman share the same skills! Name me off some of thse archery skills it takes to shoot a crossbow that does not involve shooting a rifle You'll have to do MUCH better than that if you intend to speak before the game commission against allowing crossbows. Been up in front of them several times and always got what I wanted! |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy Beat me to it Arthur - by the way, you have presented some of the best counters to the anti's I have seen. Where did you get the anti crap from, Uncle Ted! I have seen no anti crossbow posts on this thread. Fact is, I know it, you know it, and everyone on this forum knows that it takes no archery skills to shoot a crossbow! Or possibly the skill needed to take the cpound out of the closet and blow the dust off the night before opening day? Is this possibly how you do it? Now if you want to compare it to the skills needed to shoot a traditional bow, then you might have an arguement - especially if you are willing to outlaw groundblinds and treestands. But I doubt any anti is willing to do either of these let alone both. Looks like you are anti groundblind and anti treestand! Steve |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
SF
I meant anti xbow in bow season. And I certainely am NOT anti blind or treestand - I was trying to make the point that the advantage a xbow has of not being drawn in the presense of game is similar to the advantage being offered by the use of portable blinds and treestands. Is that clear now? The other examples I gave concerning archery skills are the ones observed every year near hunting season in my friends local shop. I shoot year round, several times a week, mainly recurve but play with a compound for form - no dust on any of my bows. Someone who understands form CAN have a newbie hitting a pieplate with a fitted compound in an afternoon. Level many (NOT I) feel is adequate for hunting. My opinion on xbow in archery? Until recently I was against. I have no interest at this time in hunting with one. After A LOT of consideration, I now support their inclusion for numerous reasons: - As Arthur said, they are cenuries old archery equipment - certainly more so then recent compounds. - Many of the same people so vocally against xbows where even more vocal against first the compound, and then the release (trigger). - When you compare the differenceto become and stay competent to huntbetween traditional and compounds to that between compounds and xbow, the compound/xbow difference is nearly invisible. - States that have allowed there use, many for years, have not had their seasons effected negatively in any way. You can hunt with YOUR bow of choice in Ohio for like 3 months - any many travel there (from anti xbow states) to do so every year. I hope this makes my position clear - if not, please ask rather then make assumptions. Steve |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: BigJ12 ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker Big John Now I never said You thought it was shot like a compound or traditional bow, You made it clear in your opening statement, that it was not! I call it a crossbow, have since I was about 5 years old, my Grandchildern call it a crossbow, even said it has a bow on it :eek:. As far as the word Crossbow not having the word gun in it, It's because Crossbows came befor guns. Since it has a gun stock and is Shot like a GUN, If gun's had been made first, do you honestly believe it would have not been called a Bowgun, Boltgun, Gunbow, or yes, even aArrowgunor somthing of that sort.? In other words since the invention of the gun, and everythingmade since the gun,with a pistol grip, or a gun stock, has been called a gun of some sort, Air Gun, Water Gun, Ratchet Gun, Grease Gun, BB Gun, ect, ect, Yet none of these Gun's launch a projectile from a ignited powderd propellant! We could pick each others post's apart for days, but let's get back to the real Issue at hand, Is it Archery! You claim it is because it has a bow , I say, once you lay a Bolt in the track of a crossbow, The Archer has left the Building! Again, No Archer, No Archery. It takes Zero archery skills to shoot a crossbow, no matter how many Bow and Arrow components it is made up of! And I'm sure you know this as well. And let me end by saying, I'm not the bad guy here, I helped to get it so Handicaped Bowhunters could hunt with a Crossbow during Archery season. I'm all for them having their own season. The Bad guy's are Crossbow manufactures spending hundred's of thousands of dollars, maybe millions, and archery shop owner's trying to open up our Archery season for a whole new market for their profit, and Gun Hunters that will jump at the chance to Chisel away at even more of our Archery season. We have already went from a once generous 75 day season in my state,to 45 from these special intrest group's, not counting the early youth season a week befor Archery season opens. Some states with low Hunter numbers, it may not make a differance, (They always use OHIO as an example)I think my State sold somthimg like 650,000 deer tag's last year (someone correct me if I'm wrong) If you take 1/4 of that who would hunt with a crossbow (just guessing) your looking at an additional 162,500 thrown into our archery season and public hunting land. Like I said, I'm just your average John trying to keep Archery season for Archers. If someone wants to hunt Archery season they can aquire a Bow and some Arrows and learn to be an Archer, If not, they can hunt with a gun or Gun type fired bolt launcher in their 3 Gun season's where it belongs. Please re-read my posts, I am very carefull about my word selection. I was not and am not talking about bbguns, waterguns, capguns or any other "gun" for that matter. I simply said that a crossbow's mechanics are more bow like than they are a "firearm". Big John, Your killing me here, go back and read this part of my post, it was part of the answer to the question you asked. To answer your question about it being "archery" No I don't think a crossbowman shoots a crossbowthe same way I shoot my compound. But I also don't think a compound bow shooter shoots the same as a traditional or REALarchereither, bigdifference between the two. I have a28# recurve target bow, and a 80# 65% let off compound that holds 28#, bare bow and fingers,or however you load them up as long as their the same, from the time you put your hand in the grip till after the follow through,they take the exact same skills as an archer to shoot.If mr recurve shooter cant pull 80#, in this case the real archer my be the compound shooter.:DAnd you said it your self a crossbow is shot like a gun, not like a bow! Or asArthur P would say, a gun shot like a crossbow! I started out shooting long and recurve bows like most ofus folks who grew up in the late 60's and 70's. (or earlier)I still dust them off even today but I do not consider myself an archer not even by a stretch. I'm a bowhunter and my tool is a compound bow, yes I draw it like a traditional bow but that's about all the two have in common. Yet a compound bow is still considered "archery tackle". I hope you don't mean to imply that all I need to do to become an archer is be able to draw a bow in the presence of my quary do you? I hope your not implying,I imply such a thing!Do you imply if my traditional bows were not made by a cave man, I can't consider myself an archer? Like I said I don't care if they allow crossbows into the archery seasons, it's fine by me. I'm just glad I can shoot my compound bow during "archery" season. Well since I shoot trad and compound and fit your definition as an archer its not fine by me, the compounds can stay, no wait your right, youconvinced me, since I'm one of the few that should have a say so in the matter you and your compound can stay home too! How you like those apples! To me if we start talking about only "archers" being able to hunt during "archery" season.......the woods would be very empty indeed. Hay, I'm out there to hunt, not Visit :D |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy SF I meant anti xbow in bow season. I see, you just forgot the in bow season part!And I guess you could call me anti xbow in bow season, only if you are capable of shooting a bow during bow season. And I certainely am NOT anti blind or treestand - I was trying to make the point that the advantage a xbow has of not being drawn in the presense of game is similar to the advantage being offered by the use of portable blinds and treestands. Is that clear now? I gotthe point, and you got mine. And what excuse do you use for being able to hold it back till you fall asleep? The other examples I gave concerning archery skills are the ones observed every year near hunting season in my friends local shop. I shoot year round, several times a week, mainly recurve but play with a compound for form - no dust on any of my bows. Someone who understands form CAN have a newbie hitting a pieplate with a fitted compound in an afternoon. Level many (NOT I) feel is adequate for hunting. My opinion on xbow in archery? Until recently I was against. I have no interest at this time in hunting with one. After A LOT of consideration, I now support their inclusion for numerous reasons: - As Arthur said, they are cenuries old archery equipment - certainly more so then recent compounds. Yet are not to be confused with modern day xbows. - Many of the same people so vocally against xbows where even more vocal against first the compound, and then the release (trigger). - When you compare the differenceto become and stay competent to huntbetween traditional and compounds to that between compounds and xbow, the compound/xbow difference is nearly invisible. Only to people that want to get them into bow season, to others they are shot like a rifle! - States that have allowed there use, many for years, have not had their seasons effected negatively in any way. You can hunt with YOUR bow of choice in Ohio for like 3 months - any many travel there (from anti xbow states) to do so every year. Theres Ohio again, How many deer hunters are in the state of Ohio? I hope this makes my position clear - if not, please ask rather then make assumptions. Steve, when you did not make yourself clear, all's you left me with was an assumption! Steve |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: bob d ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker Now thats a new approach from crossbow hunters, if you cant have your way (the hole 90 day season in my state), take it all away! I kind of Figured you had one of those modern day Bolt launchers you were not showing us. Question: Is a handicap hunter allowed to hunt with a crossbow in your state archery season? Fact is, I know it, you know it, and everyone on this forum knows that it takes no archery skills to shoot a crossbow! While the skill required to shoot a crossbow are more similar to marksmanship than archery, there are some archery skills that come into play. Example: Ballistics To accurately fire a crossbow(or bow I imagine) you have to be able to more accurately calculate range and angle of fire for your intended target. I have done this for long range shooting with a firearm and I gotta tell you, archery is harder. Shrinking the field and increasing the effects of gravity, angle and wind on your projectile increases the level of difficulty for the shot. Add to that the difference in repeatable performance of the bow and arrow(or bolt) when compared to a firearm, and you've got yourself a very tiny margin for error. |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker ORIGINAL: BigJ12 ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker Big John Now I never said You thought it was shot like a compound or traditional bow, You made it clear in your opening statement, that it was not! I call it a crossbow, have since I was about 5 years old, my Grandchildern call it a crossbow, even said it has a bow on it :eek:. As far as the word Crossbow not having the word gun in it, It's because Crossbows came befor guns. Since it has a gun stock and is Shot like a GUN, If gun's had been made first, do you honestly believe it would have not been called a Bowgun, Boltgun, Gunbow, or yes, even aArrowgunor somthing of that sort.? In other words since the invention of the gun, and everythingmade since the gun,with a pistol grip, or a gun stock, has been called a gun of some sort, Air Gun, Water Gun, Ratchet Gun, Grease Gun, BB Gun, ect, ect, Yet none of these Gun's launch a projectile from a ignited powderd propellant! We could pick each others post's apart for days, but let's get back to the real Issue at hand, Is it Archery! You claim it is because it has a bow , I say, once you lay a Bolt in the track of a crossbow, The Archer has left the Building! Again, No Archer, No Archery. It takes Zero archery skills to shoot a crossbow, no matter how many Bow and Arrow components it is made up of! And I'm sure you know this as well. And let me end by saying, I'm not the bad guy here, I helped to get it so Handicaped Bowhunters could hunt with a Crossbow during Archery season. I'm all for them having their own season. The Bad guy's are Crossbow manufactures spending hundred's of thousands of dollars, maybe millions, and archery shop owner's trying to open up our Archery season for a whole new market for their profit, and Gun Hunters that will jump at the chance to Chisel away at even more of our Archery season. We have already went from a once generous 75 day season in my state,to 45 from these special intrest group's, not counting the early youth season a week befor Archery season opens. Some states with low Hunter numbers, it may not make a differance, (They always use OHIO as an example)I think my State sold somthimg like 650,000 deer tag's last year (someone correct me if I'm wrong) If you take 1/4 of that who would hunt with a crossbow (just guessing) your looking at an additional 162,500 thrown into our archery season and public hunting land. Like I said, I'm just your average John trying to keep Archery season for Archers. If someone wants to hunt Archery season they can aquire a Bow and some Arrows and learn to be an Archer, If not, they can hunt with a gun or Gun type fired bolt launcher in their 3 Gun season's where it belongs. Please re-read my posts, I am very carefull about my word selection. I was not and am not talking about bbguns, waterguns, capguns or any other "gun" for that matter. I simply said that a crossbow's mechanics are more bow like than they are a "firearm". Big John, Your killing me here, go back and read this part of my post, it was part of the answer to the question you asked. To answer your question about it being "archery" No I don't think a crossbowman shoots a crossbowthe same way I shoot my compound. But I also don't think a compound bow shooter shoots the same as a traditional or REALarchereither, bigdifference between the two. I have a28# recurve target bow, and a 80# 65% let off compound that holds 28#, bare bow and fingers,or however you load them up as long as their the same, from the time you put your hand in the grip till after the follow through,they take the exact same skills as an archer to shoot.If mr recurve shooter cant pull 80#, in this case the real archer my be the compound shooter.:DAnd you said it your self a crossbow is shot like a gun, not like a bow! Or asArthur P would say, a gun shot like a crossbow! I started out shooting long and recurve bows like most ofus folks who grew up in the late 60's and 70's. (or earlier)I still dust them off even today but I do not consider myself an archer not even by a stretch. I'm a bowhunter and my tool is a compound bow, yes I draw it like a traditional bow but that's about all the two have in common. Yet a compound bow is still considered "archery tackle". I hope you don't mean to imply that all I need to do to become an archer is be able to draw a bow in the presence of my quary do you? I hope your not implying,I imply such a thing!Do you imply if my traditional bows were not made by a cave man, I can't consider myself an archer? Like I said I don't care if they allow crossbows into the archery seasons, it's fine by me. I'm just glad I can shoot my compound bow during "archery" season. Well since I shoot trad and compound and fit your definition as an archer its not fine by me, the compounds can stay, no wait your right, youconvinced me, since I'm one of the few that should have a say so in the matter you and your compound can stay home too! How you like those apples! To me if we start talking about only "archers" being able to hunt during "archery" season.......the woods would be very empty indeed. Hay, I'm out there to hunt, not Visit :D I have been reading your posts....the whole time you're talking about "guns" and I'm talking about "firearms" big difference. My contention is this, while a crossbow is indeed not SHOT like a bow it is stillmore BOW than FIREARM. There is no getting around that no matter how much you don't like them. By it's very definition it's a BOW mounted transversely on a stock. Believe it or not I understand the reservations about letting crossbows into archer seasons, I don't agree but I understand completely. That being said If you had to break a crossbow down into a sub groupit only makes sense toput it into an archery sub group (like muzzleloaders are to rifles) because it has basically the: same ballistics, same effective range, same type of leathality (both kill by hemorrhage), same type of projectile and most importantly both use the EXACT SAME type of energy (limbs)and source (string)to propel the projectile. How you or anyone can't see this is beyond me. You want to fight about how crossbows don't belong inyour precious "archery season" fine, but don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining. |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Sliver,
Just want you and all the others that I don't agree with about crossbows to knowthat none of this is taken to heart and it's just healthy debate........I still disagree though.:D |
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Steve, It's been "clear" what your saying about the use of tree stands and ground blinds, but their use still doesn't take away the "obvious" advantage of the CB, no matter how you attempt to rationalize it. If you read my post again you'll see that I've taken my share with CB, so I'm speaking from experiance, not opinion.
Also Steve, I've been busted plenty of times while drawing my compound (in a tree stand) but, by the time a deer is close enoughto warrent drawing on, that deer has been in the scope of my CB since I first saw it and I don't "need" to move at all, except to pull the trigger. If that isn't an advantage, then I don't know what one is. Now Steve, if you read my post again, you'll notice I said I don't usually get involved in these back and forth type threads, your a perfect example of why!;) |
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