RE: Is this cheating?
 

I'm not sure if it's a regional thing or not, KP.....but we refer to first light as "shooting light" a lot. Lots of guys, around here, would say "I didn't have enough shooting light". I made a thread about this, during the '05 season.....and got BLASTED for it!...lol

I'll check with our GW. He's a buddy.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

If you read my posts on this thread, you'll see that I don't support this method or tactic, legal or not.

In VA it isn't well defined as you said, but I think it would qualify as illegal. But really there is no difference between this method and some other things that we, as a group of hunters also do on a regular basis, like what GMMAT stated about being in his stand at 3:30 am. This too is lacking proper detail in the regs, but both are illegal and done to improve the odds of taking game. Each person having their own definition of "normal" would then also have their own definition of "ethical".

RE: Is this cheating?
 

No, KP....I have to disagree....based solely on the verbage of our regs. I'm not "hunting" (which isn't really defined in our regs under this statute). there is NO regulation on me being there. OUR law states that no game shall be TAKEN before 30 minutes before sunrise. Nothing more.

I think what I have done is well within the written law. I've never TAKEN game before that time. It isn't evenpractical to do so (in my early morning experiences).

GREAT discussion, though!

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I am not disputing that, but they were teenagers and likely know nothing of hunting or regs. Why wouldn't a stern verbal warning have sufficed?

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Semantics......and up for "opinion". The law is clear. It was left to the discretion of the wildlife officer......and he interpreted the law to the letter. If it hadn't been a problem in that particular county.....I'm sure the law wouldn't be in place, there (it's up to individual counties as to whether or not they choose to enact MORE STRICT laws regarding "spotlighting").

RE: Is this cheating?
 

MANNER OF TAKING

Definition of Take

during, immediately preparatory and immediately subsequent

to an attempt, whether successful or not, to capture, kill,

pursue, hunt or otherwise harm or reduce to possession

any fisheries resource or wildlife resource.

The above is from the NC wildlife resources commission.

Looks like to me "preparatory, pursue, hunt" could be defined as sitting in a tree stand waiting and ready. And I don't think "unsuccessful" means having to have taken a shot and missed. I would agree that it isn't cut and dry, but it isn't in VA either. I did ask and I was told that if I wanted to be sure that I was doing everything legal, I shouldn't even enter the woods until 30 min before sun rise, as documented in the rise and set tables. This is why in VA you can't even check in on military bases before this time, and you are expected to be out 30 after sunset, or they come looking for you. They come looking for you for two reasons. One, you may be hurt and two, you're breaking the law.

Also, I'd like to add that NC and VA share a lot of laws, so I think their interpretation of the laws would be in agreement.

I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, or illegal, but only because I think the regs are poorly written and could be beat if challenged. I just don't think kids sitting next to a broken down car looking at deer with a flashlight should be charged with a crime, and I'm recognizing that WE do stuff that is just as questionable.

I know you're a good ethical hunter. I'm not questioning that, I'm just making a point that it isn't black and white.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I can't argue that the law is likely clear to those actually even knowing about the law and can't argue that it was in the discretion of the officer to handle as he saw fit, especially if spotlighting is an issue in the area. With that said, I would hope that any officer would use sensible judgment, especially regarding kids, and be lenient when possible, as I don't know if the kids even hunted or knew anything about regs. Probably just some bored kids looking to pass some time while awaiting rescue. I'm sure he cited them and left them stranded too......Richard be thy/his name

RE: Is this cheating?
 

And he earned his name!

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I didn't read all the replies, but doesn't anyone else think that there is very little chance you are going to walk right up to a deer just cause it has a light in its eyes?

RE: Is this cheating?
 

finding out that they were stranded and didn't have guns in the car would have proably been a clue.;)

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I have to agree with Hardcorehunter on this one. Personally I doubt that this "trick" would work at all. If you know where the deer are in the pre-dawn, then it shouldn't be too difficult to find out where they are going at first light and set up your stand there to avoid spooking them on your way in. This way you don't even need to question whether you are "cheating".
Sharps.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

That's a very grey area.

Walk out of the woods at night and unload your gun when you get to the car and I'll guarentee, you get be ticketed for it.

How do you say when your in your stand with a bow your not hunting? If a game warden wanted to be a real richard cranuim he couldwrite you up.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Yeah, the chances IMO are slim, but I imagine it could and does happen. If all of the elements are present I think it could happen. Perhaps if the wind was in your face and it was raining,the deer hastakenlost most ofthe defense mechanisms if you are using a light to shine in it's eyes. Can't see you, Can't smell you, Can't hearyou.

I would not call it cheating if it did happen if the animal was not shot while a light was on it.

Also, I interpret the regs to mean that you cannot shoot an animal outside the specified times. I don't think it means you cannot set in your stand or blind all night if you want, you just can'tshoot until the specified times.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Found this on the NYSDEC site.

Q. Can I use a light to see my way through the woods when I go hunting?
A. Yes. You may use a 2 cell AA battery pen light to see your way, as long as you are not hunting or even looking for deer with the light.

This is NYS definition of hunting.

To hunt—means to pursue, shoot, kill or capture (other than trap) wildlife and includes all lesser acts that disturb or worry wildlife whether or not they result in taking. Hunting also includes all acts to assist another person in taking wildlife

So I believe if your sitting in your stand really early in the morning a DEC officer that wanted to be a jerk could write you up for hunting before legal hours. If your in your stand couldn't he very easily determine you are pursuing game?

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Indiana prohibits spotlighting game animals while in possession of a weapon. Jacklighting deer like that used to be common practice for market hunters 150 years ago, but it isn't very sporting.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I would have to agree Charlie, especialy with the "includes... disturb or worry" part. Just walking to the stand could and does "disturb" and"worry" deer.

That's why you need the light; it relaxes them!

Just kidding!

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I had a buddy that almost got ticketed for something like during bow season. He came out after dark, all his arrows were in his quiver and the warden still gave him a warning.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

WOW!

I’m kind of surprised at some of these responses (but it does make for good debate!). I think the word “immediately” just before “preparatory” would ALSO come into play. I’ve also sat in my stand a GOOD while after dark…..waiting for the deer to clear my set. In those instances…..I don’t have an arrow nocked…..don’t have my release aid on…..and I’m DEFINITELY not HUNTING.

In MY eyes….I’m not “Immediately” preparing to take an animal…..until I’ve come to full draw with my bow. Everything I do…..up until that point…..is irrelevant.

Is there a law against me going into the woods on private land that I have permission to be on…….climbing up into a stand with my bow…….and sitting there all night? In MY opinion……as long as I don’t ATTEMPT to TAKE a game animal……I’m within the statutes (a far-fetched example…..but it applies, I THINK).

This is why I believe it’s so hard to catch poachers in MY state. I don’t think there’s a damned thing they can do about a man hunting without a license ……or hunting out of season…..until he actually ATTEMPTS to TAKE a game animal.

Let’s just say I’d like my chances, in court!

I know you guys are just discussing this…..but I do what everyone else here does, for the most part. It’s not unusual to go to stand in the wee hours, here. Not at all. Game lands and Military bases have their own set of jurisdictional regs. I’m also aware of that.

Good stuff!

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Whether or not they had a gun in the car .....when you get right down to it.....isn't a factor in whether or not they were breaking the law. It's not a prerequisite to the statute.

I didn't say he did the "right"....or "prudent" thing. I just stated he cited them for breaking a game law. They did.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I'm with you GMMAT. I was hunting a large tract of public land with my father a long time ago when I was little, and we camped out in the blind we setup. He unloaded and cased the rifle, we kept on the orange, but we deffinitely weren't hunting that night. I understand why it could be frowned upon - its not hard to uncase a rifle and throw a couple of shells in quick, but then again the people who are going to break the laws know the laws and don't care.I guess it's all about interpretation.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I don;t gun hunt....but I know, in NC, you can be cited for having a loaded gun near a public highway.

I say it the same way I say I'm not hunting when I have a bow and a quiver full of arrows in my car when I'm on my way home from shooting 3D and I stop to scout turkeys. I'm not hunting.

I say it the same way I say it when I'm walking from my truck to my house with the same bow and quiver full of arrows.....and it's after dark....and there are deer in my lot. I'm not hunting.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I don't really see it that way;
In one instance you have a group of kids, who didn't elect to go seek out deer that day. Due to some unfortunate events, they became stranded and in the dark. Maybe they heard something or maybe they just decided to look around. But they happened to find a deer with the flash light, and were charged with a crime. Wrong place, wrong time, whatever?

Then we get to you;
A man who is intending to killing a deer that day. He has spent a lot of time and money to prepare for this hunt. He has access to a computer and game laws where poorly written regulations exist. Since they're hard to understand, by default, he sides with what is most convenient to him and his pursuit of the game that he is hunting.

One of these two scenarios includes a person who suspected he might be doing something wrong and decided to continue, and the other most likely did not have a clue.

I know what you're saying, and guess what - I do it too! And to expand on that, I'm pretty sure that if I were to get caught, I might get into some trouble, but like many, I take the risk. Is what I'm doing unethical? To me; no. Is it illegal; maybe? Do I know for sure; no. Am I going to stop; probably not. Do I know that there is risk involved; yes.

I'm pretty sure you agree, but admitting it is another subject I guess?

RE: Is this cheating?
 

These kids ......it doesn't MATTER what their "intent" is. It's not even up for interpretation. What they did is CLEARLY against the law. Whether or not they intended to "take" a deer, that night, is IRRELEVANT.

Totally separate issue. "If" you shine a light at a deer in that county....."Then" you have broken the law.

"Your" interpretation (not neccessarily NC's)....is that I'm "hunting"....or "preparing" to take a game animal when I (I guess) leave my house?????I have my bow and quiver full of arrows.....so I "must" be "preparing" to take a game animal???? Where does it end???

Where did the "immediately preparing" get lost?

i don't have a problem with anything you're doing. I'm also going to be hunting some with my game warden, this season. Should be fun!

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Well I looked up immediately. I was surprised to find five different meanings. Some look as if they'd support your argument, and some would support mine. I'm not a lawyer and wouldn't admit it if I were, so I'm not going to speculate on this anymore, but I do see this differently

RE: Is this cheating?
 

No problem, KP. Heck you don't even have to hunt, here!!!....lol

I've got a good relationship with our GW......and I'm sure he'd let me know if I or any of my friends were doing things wrong. I ask him a LOT of questions.....and I'll ask him this one, too. I'll get back with you.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

KP:

If I'm not drawing back on an animal......or aiming my firearm at him.....I'm not "immediately preparing" to "take" him.

This....according to my GW.

You can talk to yours if you want to ease your mind.....but I'm doing nothing wrong.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I guess everyone driving a car at night that happens to drive by any wooded area will likely shine a deer, so they must get cited? Don't you dare have a flat tire on the side of the road adn use a flashlight at night as you may shine a deer? Common sense, more importantly intent to knowlybreak the law needs to be determined in my opinion in order for a citation to make sense.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I went to a TN university to play baseball.....right out of high school. On my maiden voyage up there.....car full of clothes and what not.....I went through VA and got pulled over. When the state patrolman came up to my car.....he asked me if I knew why he pulled me. I said "No". He said it was unlawful, in VA, to operate a motor vehicle while wearing headphones (I had on my Sony Walkman headphones). I pleaded.....saying I wasn't aware of the law....and he actually said "Son....ignorance of the law is no excuse".

He cited me.

Did I break the law?

RE: Is this cheating?
 

GMMAT, you asked
.....how was he to know he wasn't looking at a poacher?
I answered

finding out that they were stranded and didn't have guns in the car would have proably been a clue.

Were they "spot lighting" by the letter of the law yes,but he wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out he wasn't dealing with a poacher.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

That's the difference between states NYS if you are afield with a bow or gun you are hunting.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Yeah I get your point, but how many peopledrive versus have anything to do with hunting? How many people are likely to know laws/regs regarding driving versus hunting? How many "kids" stranded at night by the woods, with a flashlight, with noweapon orintenthave the potential to cause damage or death versus and "adult" driving a car that can easily cause great damage and death?
I guess an officer is entitled to be a Richard....I just hope that he does not expect anyone in authority, such as a teacher to give his child any sort of sensible break when a simple mistake is made.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Red Lion:

I think this has run its' course. Have a good one.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

You have a good one to. Thanks for the debate. :D

RE: Is this cheating?
 

GMMAT,
I did ask a GM, well more like whomever answered the phone at the department. The answer that I received was different than yours. I was told that if an officer thought I was hunting that I could be charged, and to be safe, I shouldn't enter the woods until legal hunting time had begun.
If I were to show a picture to just about anyone in the world of a man in a tree stand, dressed in camo with a bow (not even in his hand) hanging from a hook on a limb "what is he doing"? I'm pretty sure they would reply "hunting" and not "sitting and waiting to hunt". I'm also pretty sure if I were to elaborate and say, "what if we askedthe man in the tree,and he said that he wasn't hunting yet, but would be in a little while" they would probably laugh and say that you're lying. I'm glad that you feel comfortable with what you're doing, and I'm also happy for you that you have a GM to talk to. And I'm not questioning your intentions, at all! But, if a different GM walks up, all he has to do is perceive that you're hunting.
In fact what you're doing in the tree stand is exactly what you would be doing if you were hunting, except that you'd knock and arrow.
When I stalk or still hunt I don't knock an arrow. I keep my bow in my left hand and an arrow in the right. I do this because if the arrow is knocked I hit it on everything and it snags anything it comes into contact with, but I'm hunting. If I were to keep the arrow in the quiver during the same activity, I'd still be hunting.
To on-lookers we're doing the same exact thing, except there is an absence of light, which "I" think "MAY" be viewed as "ILLEGAL" by people who might matter.
Webster;
Hunt - To pursue game or other animals to capture or kill them.

There were other definitions for "hunt", but this one I think was the closest to what we do when we "hunt". And I think it would be at least wise to take note of the fact that some could think that this is what you're doing. And if those people were in a position to convict you of a crime, well then you'd be a poacher; by definition of course.

And I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if your argument is "I was simply sitting there, I wasn't hunting" and you look up "sitting" or "waiting" in ol' Webster, you're going to match the description under "hunting" a lot more so than "sitting" or "waiting".

I'll do some more asking, but I'm pretty sure that in my area, you get caught heading into the woods at 3:30am, you're in trouble. Could you beat it; maybe, maybe not?

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Charlie:

If you have a problem with the officer upholding the law.....there isn't much I can say, is there? the bottom line is.....when he saw them....he had NO IDEA of why they were shining the light. When the kids parents arrived.....he approached. Maybe they smarted off to him when he told them what they were doing was against the law? Who knows??? it really doesn't matter, though. it's not up for interpretation. They CLEARLY were breaking the law. Why he cited them...I don't know.....but I'm willing to give HIM the benefit of the doubt. I won't automatically assume he's a ****head.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

What if he was in a tree lounge and was sound asleep LOL? And then has his little vibrating alarm wake him up a 1/2 hour before sunrise. If the GW had to wake him up to give him a ticket could he accuse him of hunting before prescribed hours LOL:D?

RE: Is this cheating?
 

KP:

I'm "Waiting".....would be my answer. I'm waiting to hunt. It's illegal to HUNT until 30 minutes prior to sunrise.....so I must "wait".

According to YOUR definition, then.....the MINUTE I practice.....I'm "preparing". ANY time I don camo.....I'm hunting (If I have my bow and arrows).

I gave a treestand safety seminar at my shop owner's Church a few weeks ago. I had on full camo.....I had my bow (quiver full of arrows)......and I climbed up that tree to 20' and hauled up my bow and put it on the bow hook.

WAS I HUNTING? NO! Any "sensible" person could figure out I wasn't hunting. BUT....I met your definition (Take a picture and show it to someone and ask them what I was doing, right?????). There was also deer in the area (It's not far from my house....so I KNOW there's deer in those woods!!...lol)

OH YEAH....It was ALSO out of season. And heck....the GW was there!!

It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. I have my governing body's appointed representative's blessing.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

Just as any sensible person could figure out that those kids weren't spot lighting.

Your reading comprehension can't be that bad can it?

I just answered how easy it would be to figure out he wasn't dealing with a poacher.

Why wait for parents he didn't even know would arrive?

Come on you ticket stranded kids for spot lighting your the defnition of a Richard Cranuim. He had to know that they were stranded and that their parents were there to help and they weren't poachers before he ticketed them.

RE: Is this cheating?
 

I go to my stand before legal hunting hours and I believe it to be breaking the letter of the law.

I watched a guy get aticket coming out of state land because he waited to unload until he was near his car.

No different then you and I walking in the woods well before light with a bow, it would be easier for a bowhunter to get away with a shot then a gun hunter ,no sound.

Let's say I walked out of the woods 1.5 hours after legal hunting hours and told trhe DEC officer I was waiting for deer to leave on a nice full moon night with snow on the ground, you think he might write me up for hunting after hours?

Until he's out sick and you run into his buddy that doesn't know you.

So a kid that lips off should get ticketed but you get a blessing from a dec officer to do what you want.[8D]

RE: Is this cheating?
 

HOW were they NOT spotlighting, Charlie? They had a spotlight on a deer! It's against the law! How were they NOT doing it??? NC law states NOWHERE that they have to have a weapon....OR...that they have to mean the animal harm. I assume the law was written the way it is to take ANY INTERPRETATION out of it. Heck...there doesn't even have to BE deer in the area. It just has to be an area that is known to hold deer. Which....by that county being on the NO SPOTLIGHTING list....should give any sensible person a clue.

How were they NOT spotlighting???? This is ridiculous!

I don't know and don't care. It's irrelevant.

I thought you just said they WEREN'T spotlighting. Which is it? What part of the law are you having trouble with? Do you know the law I'm speaking of? Were you there to know how he was treated (the officer) ....or...ae you just trying to stir ****? I think I know the answer to all of those questions.