RE: Cut on Contact?
 

85 grains seems a bit light (IMHO) you might go to 100grains.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Another one to consider if you're willing to go to 100 grains... I think if you remove the smaller bleeder blades it gets close to 85 grains.



I think it was mentioned earlier, but here's a pic... Muzzy Phantom.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Montec, hands down.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Wow,I just got back online.....To answer a few questions.
Nope, I'm not a kid, I'm a full growed up6th grade graduate.
(That's Jethro Bodine from Beverly Hillbillies, to tell my age). I pull 70#.
I'm upgrading to a used AR-31 or Hoyt Razortec.
Always shot aearly 80s Pearson Spoiler 65% let-off.28 in draw.
Easton 2215s GGII with Old Satellite Titans, whichare pretty heavy. (I want to say 150-175 gr.?) All-in-All, pretty heavy set-up which equals SLOW. This is all from memory....Plenty ofKE for it's day. Chrono-d at 220 fps once with lighter fieldpoints. Almost always had pass through shots (never over 20 yd. shots).
Needless to say, it didthe job many times.

I'm looking for faster withthe new rig, not that just about anything will be faster.I'll be shooting Carbon arrows (CE). I'm just looking for the right BH.I wouldn't think 85 gr.would be too light, I don't wantthe KEto suffer so much for speed. I'm not opposed to 100's.
Again just looking for the right BH.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

I've always used COC, except one season. But certainly not opposed to new ideas.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

That would widen your options immensely.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

I have used the G5 Montecs with great results. I also tried out Razorcaps last year and they performed well too. I found though that they need more spin testing than the Montecs do. It seems like every Montec spins perfect.It makes for setting up your arrows pretty easy. They do need a little more attention to get them sharp but I don't mind sharpening, in fact I prefer it, so the Montec is a great fit for me. They fly very good and are sturdy enough to punch through bone.

If you can get a broadhead sturdy enough to perform the same as a chisel head yet have the deep penetrating benefit of cut on contact...........you have the best of both worlds and IMHO the Montec is one of those broadheads. The only down side is you do have to work at getting them sharp. I have it down to a science so it's a non factor for me, but I can see where others would not want to bother.

If you like to sharpen your broadheads you will not be disappointed in the Montec.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Man your not just anothera pretty face;)

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Hey Deep I have been shooting Montecs from the first and they are great they fly like a field point. And they are very easy to sharpen with a good stone. I have shot five deer with them 2 P&Y and 3 doe all pass throughs I won't change any more blades lol! Goodluck!!;)

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Looks like a new head from Steel Force this year............NICE!! I might have to give these a try.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

The Shuttle just looks SOLID!!!.........look forward to shooting these.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Chris:

I use what I use (Muzzy's) for one reason. When I look at what's making the way for the business side of those razors......I like what I see with them. Sure....if you're a perfect shot......and you can positively be assured of placing your broadhead tip between two ribs......or positively know you're not going to hit a shoulder.......then that sharp point is great.

If you're like me....and only wish you were that good....."I" like the fact that I've got the MASS (and I also use 125gr) to get through bone when I'm not perfect (and I was glad I had it, last year).

Would I have taken as many deer last year with a COC head? Maybe. I just look at it like this........

If I were going to try to bust through an animal's ribcage......what would I rather utilize?? If Ionly hit flesh......it's a moot point.

I'm also not trying to say thatCOC heads won't cut through bone. Not at all. I just look at the tools that are available to do the job.....and the chisel point I utilizeappears better suited for the job of going through bone. Also....like I said earlier.....my setup may be different from yours. My arrow's packing a pretty goodwallop.

Good luck.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

"Easton 2215s GGII with Old Satellite Titans, whichare pretty heavy. (I want to say 150-175 gr.?) All-in-All, pretty heavy set-up which equals SLOW. This is all from memory....Plenty ofKE for it's day."

I have read quite a few posts about bow and arrow performance, virtually all of which reference Kinetic Energy and the criteria for judgement. Certainly that is an important consideration. However, when discussing penetration, as in this post, kinetic enerty is not the appropriate criteria for consideration - momentum is! To use an anology, suppose you are sitting at an intersection in your truck, when you are hit, head on, by a Volkswagen traveling at 75 mph. Certainly a bad deal, however consider you are at the same intersection in the same truck and are involved in, yet another, accident. Only this time you are hit head on by a train traveling at the same 75 mph. You have a chance of survival in the wreck with the VW, on the other hand, the wreck with the train and - hello St. Peter. The difference in the argument is the momentum of the two objects. One take home argument in that analogy for the bowhunter is that there is a price to pay in trading mass for speed. The reason you had good luck with your old set-up is the great momentunof your projectile.All that said (yes it is a mouthful),don't just get an 85 grain broadhead simply because they go faster without being aware of the fact that in so doing one pays the price of loss of momentum.Momentum= penetration. Penetration= dead critter!!

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

OK, I'm confused.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

OK......about what? Really, Bob....the statements don't contradict themselves. I stated my OPINION on why I shoot a chisel point. There are MANY whose opinions (and likely tests) differ from mine. I wouldn't ever discount the validity of COC claims or the successes many have experienced. I only stated WHY I utilize what I do.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Use any broadhead you like on your arrows, but finish the job with the blade in your hand!

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Dude,
They'll argue about anything!

The chisel was created because the COC's fail (when they hit bone, often, but not always).

You're basically going to hit one of two things or both; soft tissue or bone. One arrow head is really good at hitting one of the two, the other is really good at hitting both. You pick!

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

I understand clearly what you are saying here:


Not so clear here.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

So much for "lurking"....

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Bob.....I don't mean this as confrontational by ANY stretch.....but just what part of that statement (which is, admittedly, an OPINION) do you have trouble with?

I've stated that "I" have more confidence in a chisel point (or its' equivalent) when it comes to direct contact with something other than flesh. That is ALL.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

What type of head are you referring to inyour statement? Whatever head you are referring to, why does it have to be placed between ribs? What kind of animal ribs are you referring to?

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

I'm assuming we're talking about the whitetail deer, here, Bob.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

If anyone is interested in some good reading on Broadhead Performance/Heavy Bone Impacts/Heavy Game Penetration/Kenetic Energy and Momentum, I'd suggest taking a look at Dr. Ashby's Studies and updates. It's the real deal. He's done all of his research and testing on animals. Unfortunately, he can not do the studies here in the US as law forbids. You'd might be surprised how COC broadheads do in his tests.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

You go ahead, I'm sure the statistics show COC's as being better. I'll do my own investigating and see if he's a share holder in any of the COC companies.

Just kidding man, I really don't care what anyone uses. But if you research the Muzzy, well there some good info there too...

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Muzzy has always worked fine for me for anything in North America. It's just when you get to the extremes on big game animals when you really want to know what is proven.

Below is a little research I did on a Muzzy 145 grain. It speaks for itself. The muzzy was shot out of a 70# Parker Bow, 32 inch draw. It was shot at a piece of cast iron, the head below that was shot the same way, it was a 135 grain head (I'll keep it nameless):

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Wow, that is a good display of rapid deceleration...

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Thanks guys, lots of good stuff to think about.
I'm trying to find that "balance" between speed, KE, and penetration. Penetration hopefully being all the way throuh. Two holes are better than one (HMMMM). For bloodtrails that is...

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

The last piece of cast iron I shotjust wouldn't die, had to shoot it three times. Maybe where you live the deer are steel plated, but mine aren't. I may be one of the few that doesn't take too much stock in what a blade does through steel.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Muzzy Phantoms, enough said................

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

gmmat seems stuck on his muzzy broad heads for some reason. lot's of people i know could never get them to fly right. And last year i shot a 2315 with a 100gr steel force cut on contact through both shoulders of a 130lb doe and the only damage to the head was broken bleader blades. both front shoulders were shattered and the deer only went 10 yards

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Because they've never failed me......and they've been tested. That's the BEST reason I can think of!:)

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Me either. ;):D


************************************************** *****


I do however, for the animal/heavy bonepenetration part,believe in the proven research done on actual animals (Dr. Ashby).

For the deer/elk seasons that I used to use Stos two bladed heads, I personally found them to go through game like butter. Never found the need totry to shoot between ribs or such. Problem I had with them were lacking blood trails, even on double lunged animals. Since then, I have moved to Phantom/Stinger four blade, and havehad much better trails.

However, when Igo after moose, I will be back to thetwo bladed/non-vented heads for max penetration.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Bob:

By chance......are you basing your opinions and information off of traditional equipment? Just curious.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Yes, and no.

When I based my decision to use a two bladed COC for moose, then yes, it was. I wouldn't have a problem using a variety of other heads if I was using a compound.

FWIW, in the pictures that I posted earlier, I have used the head that "exploded" upon impact on deer. I had used that head in the past on deer, and have never experienced a problem.

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Bob we did a similar test, and the above head did the same thing.

In case anybody is wondering the head that exploded is the InnerLoc.;)

The cool thing we fond is the the G5 two blade head stuck into the cast iron. The montec tip bent a bit, butwas still intact and stuck.

I have tested about every head on the market[8D](no mechs)

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Yeah, Germ.....but you shot it out of a ROSS!!

By the time your bow got that arrow to the sheet metal.....it was OBVIOUSLY on a downward path (due to the tremendous amount of arc that occurs with any projectile shot out of a ROSS).

Apples and Oranges.....





















;)

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

Thanks for the info Germ.

Did you modify the tip on the 2 blade at all?

RE: Cut on Contact?
 

No it did not!!!! The head looked like new.

I was shooting my Hoyt when I did th test, hell my ROSS would have looped over it[:-]