Define a PRO Shop
 

Here are some interestingquestions recently asked by a tournament archer. The reasons presented were bothvalid and misguided; but, the substance of the subject has a lot of merit. I thought a thread here might interest and stimulate some viewers - and especially some shop owners. He wrote (with slight editing for clarity):[/align]

Quote:

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Why call it a Pro Shop ? Why don't these shops just go by the name of Archery Hunting stores, they really just sell about the same stuff as your local Dicks or Gander Mt. It is all about Deer hunting, as the Deer populations and land decline so goes the archery shops. I went to three different so-called Pro shops trying to find Woody's arrow lube or just any lube. Target stablizers, don't think so, only hunting stablizers. Need a target sight or lens for a scope,don't think so. Then the owners ***** and complain when people order from places like Keystone archery! If they are going to put all their eggs in one basket with the Deer hunters they are going to loose. Deer hunting, Deer population and hunting lands are on the decline,these people are going to leave Archery and take up
golf.[/align]

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My initial response is this:[/align]Some PRO Shops do exist. I do agree with you that a lot of shops shouldn't use the name PRO. It annoys me as much as you because they give the industry/profession a poor and misleading image.

I try to carry the items that aren't carried by the big merchants or those that they usually run low on at times during the year. I also carry the higher-end items that they can't/won't. I have to keep my eye on inventory levels, however, because of the manufacturers changing things from year to year.

For instance, I have Woody's in stock and many targets including 3D, but I won't stock target stabilizers, only a few target scopes, and no bows in colors. And there are many reasons why.

First, in the State of Maryland and especially around urban areas, bow hunting is on the rise. As more and more large tracts of land are being developed/divided, smaller parcels become very attractive. Deer, shoved off large parcels, are forced into the smaller ones and into peoples' back yards. The gun hunters can't get at those deer which become overpopulated and overbearing. To the rescue, the Bowhunter.

When I first started my business, I tried to cater to tournament archers. They used me and abused me. Used my facility and tried to use my tools/equipment, but returned little. When it came to buying their sundry items, they would purchase them from Lancaster or at the shoots. After all, the vendors/manufacturers at the shoots would sell them the products for my cost and they usually had their entire lineup there.

I soon realized that 95% of the industry was hunters and tried to cater to that market. I was a lot more successful. I did, however, have to control the cliques or the 'bubba' image. I didn't put all my "eggs in one basket," but I did have to capitalize on the more advantageous market.

It took years to develop my expertise. Many didn't realize that I was bringing my engineering talents from the last 30 years into this business, which is my retirement business. As time went on more and more tournament archers began to find out how well I could tune their bows in many aspects. I still don't get the 'hardware' tournament business, but I get a goodly amount of 'make it shoot better' business.

Maybe I'm unique, but it took a lot to survive a double '9/11'. Right after the economy took a dive due to the WTC bombings, a bomb called Bass Pro Shops moved just 7 miles away. Combine that with a Dick's just 1 mile away and several Wal-Marts, and it was tough for a lot of years. Even those at BPS wonder how I've survived.

If I had depended on the tournament business back then, I wouldn't be here to service their needs right now. While I wouldn't mind a bigger tournament market, it's just not in the cards for me. I told many a Dealer in the PA area that they'd see an exodus of small shops once Gander Mountain and BPS move into central PA. Those smaller shops that survive after 5 years will/should benefit; but, they may have to change their ways of doing business. I think right now I could probably write a survival book on this issue.

Don't be too hard on some of them. They won't change and will go under. The ones that are willing to change, however, support them so that they'll be there when you really need them.

Good luck and good shooting to all, and a Happy New Year.[/align][/align]

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Sometimes people just don't realize the value and importance of a pro shop. Believe it or not, there are some things you simply CANNOT get anywhere else. This "Wal Mart" mentality is just plain old ignorance. Folks get their stuff from "other" stores because they believe it's cheaper. LOL....OK, maybe initially. But what about when something needs fixed? Where do you take it? Certainly not back to Wal Mart! They look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of their ears! "You want us to do what?" "The cams are out of time?? HUH???" Even just simple things like grease and lube, restringing, cam lean......

What people don't realize is that they now HAVE to take it to a pro shop, and I can't speak for them all, just the one I work for, but if you buy your bow from us we don't charge labor to work on it. Just parts. BUT, if you don't get it from us, there is a pretty hefty labor charge.

Besides that, our repeat, loyal customers get "special" treatment and generally there is a discount or two tossed in there once in a while. Add all that up, and that BassPro bow has now cost more than the Pro Shop ONLY bow.

We, like you, cater to the hunter. We are in a rural setting made up of carpenters, farmers, factory workers and such. ( I don't mean that w/ a negative connotation, AT ALL!) My point is, they are hunters, not target shooters. The only "target" shooting they do all year is a 3D shoot or two and even those are bowhunter shoots. I've talked w/ some of them about 5 spot leagues, FITA and such......They have absolutely NO idea what I'm talking about. Point being, we simply don't carry target archery supplies, they would sit on our shelves for an eternity. BUT, we will order whatever you want, so if we don't have it, we will w/in a week.

Folks are gonna be in trouble if we don't continue support of our pro shops. Back to the labor issues......BassPro hires folks off the street. They may, or may NOT, have any archery knowledge at all, or limited at best. Again, take that bow back there for work......Good luck. I've seen SO MANY times people come in w/ a bow they bought from "X" store and the comment is always the same...."This bow just isn't comfortable. I don't enjoy shooting it." We look at it, and it's no darn wonder.....The draw length is hardly ever right, the poundage is too heavy/light, and I remember one time the guy was right handed and they sold him a left handed bow! ARE YOU SERIOUS???? The only thing they care about is the sale. Period.

OK, I've gone on long enough. Support your Pro Shops folks!

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

I agree on two points here: the first and foremost thing a local shop needs to do is to differentiate himself from a big box store, and that usually comes in the form of knowledge and service. I also understand how local shops have to monitor inventory levels and key in on what's moving.

My biggest complaint -- and probably wrapped up somewhere in the original poster's thoughts -- is that many, if not most, of the pro shops I go into don't seem inclined to truly study their industry. I know some are stretched thin trying to simultaneously manage a retail store and in conjunction run a pro shop -- but if the goal is to truly offer a pro shop, then keep abreast of the industry. I'm amazed at how many owners I talk to never frequent internet forums such as this or AT, and consequently have no "pulse" of what's currently hot or is the latest "must-have" item -- especially in lines they already carry.

If I'm going to affix the "pro" moniker to a store, I also want the owner or lead tech to know more than I do. I have a lot of fun with bowhunting, and enjoy the companionship and comraderie I find on these forums, but unfortunately, it's not my professional career. I want those for whom it is to be able to teach me, not vice versa.

I guess in a nutshell, Len, is that I'm looking for a "you" when I think of whata pro shop ought to be. I've said it before, but I wish you lived closer. :)

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Do a search and you will find all the info you want to know about Pro Shop verses whatever, lord knows it has be discussed time and time again.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

yeah, but what topic hasn't? [8D]

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Len, it sounds like good business practice to me. The shop that I shoot for and work at during the busy season ( voluteer work) can help you get the "hardware" for target shooting, but onlycarries in stock items more geared for hunting. Its funny that you mention that only a small percentage is target and the majority is hunting. That is exactly why you see Hoyt getting moreinto the hunting market more recently and not putting all their eggs in to one basket with the target bows. They are trying to keep up with the trend.That is the main reason why it takes so long to get target color bows this time of year. They are making sure that the main money maker is taken care of first. Big companies are even seeing the same thing and capitalizing on this.

If a shop is a true pro shop, I would expect the guy behind the counter knows what he or she is talking about and not just share in a common interest with the customer. As an archer starts to pick up more and more, it would not take long to figure out if these so called pro shops fit the bill as a pro shop.

We have had a shop in town for a long time where the owner was a 15 time state champion and so forth. The bows that came out of that shop were set up absolutly terrible. Servings looked like they were done in a 3rd grade art class, and knock points were set up so that the bow was going to shoot straight into the ground. I know that he knew better, but a couple of people that he had working for him had nothing but a common love for archery with the customers and probably knew less than the people coming in for help.

We now have a Cabelas and also a Sportsmans Warehouse in town. It is amazing the bows that come in the shop which were originally purchased at one of these places. Service is one of the key factors why these bows keep showing up at our doorstep. It is easy to find someone to sell bows for you. It is another to find someone who knows what to do after the sale is made. That is where a pro shop will stand out. A true pro shop will be able to walk you right to the end product and make you want to come back for expert advice when it comes time to make another purchase.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Very good points. I have two shops close by. One is very good, just does not carry my prefered bow. The other does, but I do not let them do any work on my bows. It seems that there is a lack of passion for the sport at most shops. They just carry and sell their merchandise and not worry too much about keeping up with the industry. Example, I just purchased a new Bowtech. The module numbers have changed slightly from '06. They were not aware of this. Now, this is partly the manufacturers fault as well so I will not lay all blame on this shop, but I think its something that should have been looked into.

The only true issue I have with the both shops is lack of quality merchandise. Both carry a wide range of low to mid range stuff, just not much in the way of top end. I realize its difficult to carry this in store because it may hang on a rack for a long time. It just stinks to have to guess sometimes and go off of pictures or internet research to make a decision.

I personally feel that all "pro' shops should have to under go some type of "seal of approval" from the industry. Information and training would help a long way in making sure these shops have a handle on the product they carry.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

And this is exactly what I want to find.

I am willing to buy all of my hunting/target accessories from a "pro-shop" but the problem lies in their customer service or my lack of trust.

If I hada Len or any other guy on here that obviously knows what they are doing, I would not only try to learnoff of them, I would buy exclusively from them.

Why?

Because, I am a loyal guy willingto finda "pro"who can be loyal, knowledgeable andhonest about servicing me and my archery needs.

I would spend the extra money knowing I have the peace of mind my "pro" is willing to spend the extra time with his customers.


Couldn't agree with you more.

Great post Len. And Ishare the same sediments many others on this forum have, I wish you were closer.

Dave

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Greg said it best. I am all for supporting local business of any kind but that support is a two way street IMO. I have walked into too many shops over the years and just stood there with hardly even anyone saying "hello"........some places are too busy and some places just don't care. I judge people by how they act, how they treat me and what they know about my bow........not by what counter they are standing behind. I have met people in retail settings that I would trust with my gear vs some guys in pro shops that I wouldn't let walk my dog. There is good and bad everywhere. Most of the time these big retail stores have guys working at their counters that they pushed out of business or guys that just traded the headaches of ownership for a steady paycheck.

I will take my stuff to someone I trust, like as a person and feel confident they are good at what they do. If that guy happened to be at Bass Pro then so be it. I (and I'm sure most people here) buy A LOT of products from big retail shops so I don't want to sound hypocritical and say I would never use their pro shop.......I would if I liked and trusted the guy who ran it.

Having said that.........I have never taken a bow anywhere other then small private shops. We only have a couple left but they are pretty solid.

Greg...........the number of people that visit these kinds of forums is just a drop in the bucket and a nitch market at best of people that are avid hunters and/or archers who like to yap it up in a pseudo chat room environment. Is there valuable information here?? Absolutely. Is it a good sample of your average customer?? I doubt it.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Good thread Len. I must say I completely agree with Greg on his response.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

You are absolutely right, after all most hunting is over:DI will say this:
I travel about 100 miles to get to Len'sand pass right by Bass Pro in the process.I have purchasedmy last 3 bows and one youth bowand most of my suppliesfrom Len. Why? His industry knowledge and I will purchase each additional bow from him as well.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

I wish i had a shop nearby where i could get guns,bows,fishing reels fixed.And test fire new guns and bows,before purchasing them to make sure thats what i want.At the same place where i can buy ammo at the correct grain and type for game in my area.AND have an indoor range with elevated stands,throw in a snack bar and i would never go home.
As it is now, Ive gotta drive 100 miles in 5 differant directions all over wisconsin to find little mom and pop shops that do one or the other.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

only problem with my local "pro shop" i sprice gouging. only place in town so its cabelas for 4.99 or ______ Outdoors in town for 14.99. i cant stand it and refuse to go back to there. I have found a small proshop 30 minutes away which is actually in the bacl of this guys grocery store. very friendly, competitive pricing, and best of all CUSTOMER SERVICE when something goes wrong.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Thank you, Rick, for those kind words and for your patronage.

As faras gouging, it just could be a mistake. I mistakenly did it several times. Once I looked at the wrong price sheet and another time I didn't have time to look up the price and 'shot from the hip.' In both cases that I remember, I realized it after the customer had left the store.

Once in a while my customers will do me the favor of telling me what prices are in other stores. There are times when I'm a little higher and times when I'm lower. More recently I've found that I'm lower than some of the mass merchants and had to raise my prices.

The problem with this issue, however, is that they lower their prices at random and usually drop them to 'rock bottom' just before the season ends. This is done so as to make room for other types of inventory but has the effect of making a dedicated archery/PRO shop look very bad.[:@]

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

And some times he doesn't charge enough.LOL A few times I've helpedhim by putting price tags on some of Len's stuff. I tell him, this isn't enough for this Len, you should charge more. He always has some excuse for not. One day I thought I had him, but I was wrong. Who would have thunk there would have been such a difference in muzzleloader balls.[8D]

Me too RIck, I'm already planning my bi annual trips to Baltimore from upstateNYfor bow work. I figure I'll need to come a couple months before the season and then probably during the season for some "hair" tuning.

I used to do all my own stuff before I ran into Len's shop about 5 years ago. I made my own arrows and played for hours tuning and paper tuning and tuning broadheads. I'd take it somewhere every few years for cables. Well heck, now Len does it all for me in a matter of minutes really. He can lazer tune, level tune and paper tune a bow faster than I can get my targets out of the garage. The tedious task of tuning fixed broadheads is a no brainer when Len gets through with my bow. Either it flies or it's not going to. I have no problem getting all the arrows I need from a dozen when he's done. There's always a couple that are simply not good enough for hunting. As fun as it is tio tinker, there's a warm cozy feeling about knowing "YOU" have the resources of a great proshop go to. Never had that for 30 years and now I have one. Sure I'll make an annual pilgrimage to Maryland after I move. Len has folks mail him bow from California and Florida to work on.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

I wish I had a pro shop locally to support. There was one, owner was a jerk, but one of the techs was a top 3D pro and was awesome with bows and tuning. They went out of business. There is one about 1 hour away that has one person there I will let work on my bow, but its a crap shoot to get there and find him there.

If one is local I buy everything from them, might cost a bit more, but usually the shipping charge offsets the slightly higher price, plus having someplace to go with questions or problems is worth it. Problem is when I feel like I know more about bows that the "expert" in the shop, we have a problem and I am picky about who touches my bow or my families bows.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

About 6 years ago i was a gun "FANATIC"A friend had finally talked me into giving Bowhunting a chance.He let me have his "old bow" to play around with.This bow as not set up for me,i was just letting some arrows fly to see if i would like it.After about a week of shooting i decided Archery was for me.After talking my girlfriend into getting me a new bow for my Birthday,he drove me buy a place called "Macrotech".He told me that he had heard they were the best around.Every time i drove by and wanted to go in the parking lot was packed.I decided I would wait until the place was not as busy because i did not want to look like a dummy asking alot of dumb questions:).Finally i drove by and i had my chance.I walked into his shop and Len stopped working on a customer bow,and i guess since he noticed i had never been in his shop,he walked from behind the counter and asked"May I Help You?"I replied "Whatis a good beginner bow?".He pointed to a few bows that he had hanging and told a bit about each one.I asked him which one he recommended,and he told me that he does not recommend "Brands"He let's the customer decide what is best for him or her.So i chose a few bows that wanted to shoot,And he set each one up and let me shoot each one.Long story shortI walked out with a beautifully shooting bow.Over the last5 years i have purchased a few more bowsfrom Len and have had the same great service.Since the first time i walked in Macrotech i have learned who Len is to the Archery business,and what he has done for it!!When I go into his shop,we will normally shoot the breeze about technically related stuff about archery(if he is not to busy);).When you get him talking about what he knows about archery and bows all you can do is sit and "TRY" to take in as much knowledge as you can:).I recently moved out of state and have no desire to tryand find a new shop.Macrotech will continue to be my shop!!!The title of this thread is"Define aPro Shop".If I had to define it on tuning ability alone, i would call Macrotech a "Pro Shop".If i had to define it on archery related knowledge alone ,I would call Macrotech a "Pro Shop".Combine those two with 1st class customer servive and you got yourself a winner!!!It is a shame that all archer's don't have this kind of expertise at their disposal;).Get "MACROTIZED"today and shoot better tomorrow..:D

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Great post Len. As I read through your post I could almost "feel your pain". As I knowmany of youare aware I do not own my ownbusiness but I have been the personally solely responsible for running the archery section of one of the local hunting and fishingshops for the past several years.

We went through/are going through much the same type of scenario that Len related. We had a Cabelas and a D.I.C.K'S open up within a year of each other and within reasonable driving distance of the shop. Both were near fatal blows to the shop's archery department. It was only since June of this past year that archery sales and service started going back up to the levels they once were at. Sadly though the damage was done.

After 9/11 and the new stores opened he decided that the archery, fishing, etc.. wasn't providing enough of a profit for him to make a decent living. He started a second business unrelated to anything outdoors and is doing very well with it. The shop went up for sale but still functions much as it did before but with all of the work, upkeep and ordering left to the individual department "managers". After being in that position for the last few years I can honestly say that trying to run an archery shop is anything but easy.

My hat goes off to Len for sticking with it and continuing to provide a high level of service and expertise to his customers.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

All that is said so far I will agree with completely. I share the same experience and will add that the 'demand' will direct what a Shop should carry 'in stock' and what they will 'special order' for the target shooters/ hunters.

As Greg already mentioned, keeping abreast with the latest accessories, etc, that our archery industry spews out,is also very important. This is whya trip to the ATA show every year serves quite well. Along with the many magazines available, and not excluding our archery forums. There's always alot to learn out there!!!

A well stocked shop, including the basic varieties, this oneor that one, is a must. I clearly understand, having a business of my own, that it is impossible to carry everything; as the 'overheads' do dictate what our survival chances will be. Carrying stock ( and lots of stock can mean a staggering overdraft). As we may well know, the interest rate and charges on this, sometimes wipes out our profit. When this happens we are looking a trouble in the face.

A knowledgeable shop owner, who is keeping himself/herself updated with what is on the market, has a reasonable amountof stock and choices available, has the ability to special order and "GET" a customer's need within 7-10 days,or so, has a small range in the shop, good opening hours, acceptable customer service, comparable prices to an extent,a friendly and cleanatmosphere where we can shoot the breeze and talk about our hunting woes and joys, and has the 'tools' at hand for good bow tuning and repairs--will certainly serve my needs!!!
A coffee/tea perculator, water or pop beverage cooler a candy bar dispenser,can be added as a bonus ;).
Let's not forget the 'bragging board' for the kodak moments we will have!!!

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

First & foremost I'm not bashing the proshops, but I have just one question regarding proshops? Why is it that they must charge higher prices on accessories when u can get it for a third cheaper. I'm sorry, but I have to work very hard at saving $$ up for my hobby. A perfect example is, the local pro shop carries muzzy broadheads for $35. The exact same broadheads are $15-18 at the "big-box" stores. I would gladly & w/o hesitation spend my money @ a pro-shop if they matched the prices on thoseaccessories. I'm not sure why the price is expected to be so high for the same item. Another question is, why is it whenI'm spending a grand to purchase a bow they want to charge me $35 to set it up.I need to make my money go as far as possible, & what money I save, I will use to buy other items. I am willing to pay extra for thepros knowledge in fine tuning, repairs, etc. They are the experts, & should be compensated for that. I completely agree that some of the big box stores, Gandr Mtn, etc.(not Walmart)don't have the personnel w/the knowledge that the pro shops do. Nor would I expect them 2. Any insight to this?

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

First off I don't know of a bow costing$1000, maybe after all is said and done with outfitting it but not bare bow. Secondly, do you buy your add on's at the big box store? If so don't you think the shop should charge you for installing? If you bought it at the shop the owner would most likelt install it free at time of purchashing the bow. Maybe, maybe not the same price was paid but in the end you still will have paid the same. A small pro shop has a lot of overhead to absorb without other departments kicking in with thier sales to help. To me it is worth the little extra money to know what I buy will be right and that my bow will perform at the moment of truth. Can you trust that salesman behind the counter of a big box store with that, after all, in more cases than not he is just that, a salesman.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

bump

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Function: noun
: a shop at which equipment for a particular sport (as golf) is sold typically by a professional in that sport

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

You guys are making me blush with these nice comments. Thank you.

On top ofwhat Rick wrote, I'd like to address the prices of Muzzy broadheads quoted. $35 is the average price for a 'six pack' of Muzzy BHs. Bass Pro Shops just down thestreethas there 'six pack' price between $34 and $38 depending on the time of the season. I know this very well because I keep a very close track on this item. $18 is the average price for a 'three pack' of Muzzy BHs. Did you get them confused??

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Because smaller pro shops typically cannot get the products at the same prices as the bigger retail store chains. Many shops deal directly with various local distributors. In my area that is typically something like a Kinseys Archery. Prices from the distributors are higher than what a place like Cabelas pays directly from the manufacturers. The pro shop has a standard markup...30% is probably average. If your pack of Muzzy broadheads costs Cabelas $19 from Muzzy and costs the local pro shop $23 from the local distributor and they both use the standard markup percentage then you can see where the price difference comes from.

Now, there are things called "buying groups" which allow many small pro shops to band together and order large numbers of a product directly from the manufacturers. However, there is a cost to belong to the buying group and many times larger orders need to be placed by a certain deadline in order to obtain optimum pricing. If you, as a shop owner, do not know how much you are going to sell of a particular product, especially a newer one, then putting together an order for it can be a real gamble as you can take a huge loss.

The sad part is that many consumer do not care about this. The only thing they care about is getting the lowest pricest on the newest gear. That, in and of itself, is one of the major reasons that many of the smaller shops are going out of business. They just cannot compete in most cases.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Couple of things to clarify myself. The price for the Muzzy's were in fact for the 3-pack. The $1000 for the bow was for a full set up w/accessories. Now, I just went to a new proshop yesterday, & found that his pricing was comparable, just a few dollars in difference. I don't have a problem spending $$ there, which I will do, because he is comparable. It just might be the guy near me charges really high prices. The new guy also stated that if u buy a bow from him, he doesn't charge anything for the setup of accessories.He was extremely accomodating even thoughI bought my Black Ice elsewhere. I paid him for his time &expertise in adjusting the bow. We even discussed this very issue. As I had explainedearlier I need to make mymoney go as far as poss.ButI do needto say that I had a greatexperience w/a professional. He was extremelyknowledgable & if he didn't know it, hedidn't blow any smoke. In fact, while I was there, I shot the 06 allegiance, & like it enough to maybe sell the Black Ice & buy the Allegiance from him. I do thank PABowhntr for a reasonable explanation on the pricing issue. It just might be that particular shop that I have dealt with.

RE: Define a PRO Shop
 

Now don't get carried away. :) That Black Ice is a real shooter. ;)

You are more than welcome. If I didn't have some inside experience in regard to this issue then I would probably have had the same opinion as you. I tend to view alot of issues now as though I do not know the whole story...at least not at first.

I think your guess is probably right. Some shops just do have larger markups than others. The reason for it is because their customers are willing to pay it for one reason or another. In one case it may be because the owner has the knowledge and abilities to actually assist customers with in depth archery equipment related issues. In another it may be because he is the only one to carry the most popular bow line in his area and it is more convenient for folks to just get everything from him. ;)

Good luck with whatever you end up shooting. It sounds like you cannot really lose with either of your choices. :)