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Experience VS shot selection
Simple question. Do you feel a more experienced bowhunter should have more latitude when considering shot selection than a new bowhunter?
Assuming both persons are of equal shooting ability at the range. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I first said yes.
Now I say i don't know. If they both have equal shooting abilities....then NO. Jeff |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
That's a tough question. A good one too. I think I'd like to see everyone's answers first. This one may draw a little friction..
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
To be honest my "experience" has cost me on some shots!
I judge each shot when I am live primetime, I can not guess what I would do. I will take some pictures of the hole I shot porky through, At 35 years old and knowing how my bow shoots I did not have ounce of doubt. One of my youth hunters ask me how I keep my cool in these situations. He said "You're looking at the rack, deer is moving, trying to pick a spot through a 4 in dia hole, how do you keep all that straight" I told himif I had all those thoughtsI would never shoot a deer again, LOL. I haveone thought,Put an arrow in the kill zone. Everything else is on auto pilot these days. I guess I should answer, each of us has to make the choice to shoot based on our own experience. I do not need any justifiaction from my peers onmy shot choice. I have to live with it. So my answers is I do not want any latitude from anyone. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I would say that each and every one of us have our limits, and it's our job as ethical hunters to know what our individual limits are. I think reguardless of years spent bowhunting, you need to know about shot placement before you attempt any shot at a deer. It's a fact of life that if you hunt long enough, you'll make a bad shot, loose a deer, and hopefully learn from your mistakes. I wouldn't say that the more experienced bowhunter should have more latitude when shooting, but I do believe that heshould have more experience with making the shot on the critter and therefore, more confidence in making it. But this should not give anyone, regardless of experience level, the right to take an unethical shot.
I also want to add that the problem with shot selection isthat there is so much discrepincy between what is anethical shotand what isn't. Quartering to, quartering away, severity of angle, distance, etc....An experienced bowhunter that has many years and many animals under his belt should feel more confident in the knowledge he's gained over the years than the guy who is doing it for the first time. He's made this shot on a live animal many times before, or maybe he'spassed on this shot before because he know's itexcedes his ability and this time is no different.We become experienced by learning from both good and bad experiences. You can only learn your limits by exceding them and learning from it. If you don't feel as though you can confidently make the shot, don't take it, regardless of your experience level. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
i would say yes because they are really exited.
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
Here's what I think...
With equal shooting abilities, the factor is shot placement. If the new bowhunter understands where thearrow should be placed to achieve a "kill" shot, he should be able to make the same shot as the experienced hunter. An experienced hunter may have a better understanding of the deer's anatomy thatoffers him more latitude in shot selection. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I'll answer you with two questions:
What makes an experienced hunter experienced? How does experience help a poor shot decision kill a deer? |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I believe the more experienced bowhunter learns not to take the extra lattitude. :D Those kind of decisions during the moment of truth is what qualifies them as more experienced. Just my .02.
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
The same shooting abilities at the rangewillrarelyequate tothe same abilities with a live animal in the field. A completely differentset ofunpredicable variablesare involved in the hunt equation. Targets allow for correction, rarely do hunting scenarios. I have never shot a target thatbehaved like a living breathingwhitetail. jm2c
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: goherd1111 I believe the more experienced bowhunter learns not to take the extra lattitude. :D Those kind of decisions during the moment of truth is what qualifies them as more experienced. Just my .02. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: Germ I judge each shot when I am live primetime, I can not guess what I would do. I haveone thought,Put an arrow in the kill zone. Everything else is on auto pilot these days. I guess I should answer, each of us has to make the choice to shoot based on our own experience. I do not need any justifiaction from my peers onmy shot choice. I have to live with it. So my answers is I do not want any latitude from anyone. I shoot it where I want to. Most of the time Itry to put the arrow/bullet through the heart/lung area.(only other is head/neck) However, my point of entry may stir up some people, but it's MY choice and I AM confident when I shoot or I don't shoot. No, I do not go for the "TX Heart Shot", never have and never will. TXMM |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
Oh Horse hockey, Shot placement is the same for everyone!!! Being an experienced Bowhunter is no excuse for taking a lowpercentage shot! You know where the Arrow needs togo throughthe deer. The only advantage the Experienced Bowhunter has, is being able to cash in on the shot opportunity once it presents itself!! The when and Where of it all.
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
My answer to the posted question is no. There are three things that are importantto me for making a clean killing shot on a deer.
1) Knowledge of deer anatomy. 2) proficieny with your bow (4" groups@ 40 yards with broadheads). 3) Ability to execute a killing shot, calmly, in sometimes adverse conditions and situations. Number 3 gets better with experience. This is how it works for me. As for the shot in the video (michaelhunsuckers), I killed a deer with that shot before. I hit dead center behind the shoulder, it came out the belly and stuck in the inside of the back leg (thigh). With my current setup I wouldn't take that shot anymore. Too many things can go wrong. Reality is, that the shooter knows if he exceeded his personal limitations. No one else had the sight picture he did. It is up to him to take corrective action. Something went wrong |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
A shot is either good or bad...........and the result has nothing to do with that. I can't stand when guys say the shot was "good" because the deer died.
Experience is a double edge sword.........on one hand it makes for a more calm, cool approach to the shot because they have been there and done that before..........on the other hand it can also give false confidence after a certain amount of success and result in a lowering of the guard and a feeling that this is "easy"..........which it may be in truth, but you still have to focus on a few things to avoid error. We have all seen year after year the new hunters wet their pants and wound deer because they panic when the moment of truth hits. We also hear of guys taking bad shots and justifying them with their past success. A bad shot is a bad shot. EVERYONE should know what a good shot vs a bad one is........while I don't think experience entitles anyone to any "lattitude" I certainly would place my money on the experienced hunter being able to pull off a more difficult shot in the field then some deer virgin who spent a couple weeks popping paper targets in his yard before heading out. The bottom line is that no one cares............that sucks but it's reality. Bad shots are flung from selfish people. They want that deer so bad that they are willing to risk the wounding and suffering of the deer that could result (see the botched poaching thread). Pictures, bragging, and a head mount erase all common sense in some people. Just think of how many times you have heard someone say they would NEVER shoot at a deer over 25 yards in the woods..........UNLESS it was a monster :eek: Bad shots are taken by people who know they are bad and just don't care or simply have no clue. Either way they deserve no lattitude. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: atlasman A shot is either good or bad...........and the result has nothing to do with that. I can't stand when guys say the shot was "good" because the deer died. Experience is a double edge sword.........on one hand it makes for a more calm, cool approach to the shot because they have been there and done that before..........on the other hand it can also give false confidence after a certain amount of success and result in a lowering of the guard and a feeling that this is "easy"..........which it may be in truth, but you still have to focus on a few things to avoid error. We have all seen year after year the new hunters wet their pants and wound deer because they panic when the moment of truth hits. We also hear of guys taking bad shots and justifying them with their past success. A bad shot is a bad shot. EVERYONE should know what a good shot vs a bad one is........while I don't think experience entitles anyone to any "lattitude" I certainly would place my money on the experienced hunter being able to pull off a more difficult shot in the field then some deer virgin who spent a couple weeks popping paper targets in his yard before heading out. The bottom line is that no one cares............that sucks but it's reality. Bad shots are flung from selfish people. They want that deer so bad that they are willing to risk the wounding and suffering of the deer that could result (see the botched poaching thread). Pictures, bragging, and a head mount erase all common sense in some people. Just think of how many times you have heard someone say they would NEVER shoot at a deer over 25 yards in the woods..........UNLESS it was a monster :eek: Bad shots are taken by people who know they are bad and just don't care or simply have no clue. Either way they deserve no lattitude. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
Yes, assuming the "expirenced" hunter has already made those crippleing mistakes!
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: atlasman A shot is either good or bad...........and the result has nothing to do with that. I can't stand when guys say the shot was "good" because the deer died. Experience is a double edge sword.........on one hand it makes for a more calm, cool approach to the shot because they have been there and done that before..........on the other hand it can also give false confidence after a certain amount of success and result in a lowering of the guard and a feeling that this is "easy"..........which it may be in truth, but you still have to focus on a few things to avoid error. We have all seen year after year the new hunters wet their pants and wound deer because they panic when the moment of truth hits. We also hear of guys taking bad shots and justifying them with their past success. A bad shot is a bad shot. EVERYONE should know what a good shot vs a bad one is........while I don't think experience entitles anyone to any "lattitude" I certainly would place my money on the experienced hunter being able to pull off a more difficult shot in the field then some deer virgin who spent a couple weeks popping paper targets in his yard before heading out. The bottom line is that no one cares............that sucks but it's reality. Bad shots are flung from selfish people. They want that deer so bad that they are willing to risk the wounding and suffering of the deer that could result (see the botched poaching thread). Pictures, bragging, and a head mount erase all common sense in some people. Just think of how many times you have heard someone say they would NEVER shoot at a deer over 25 yards in the woods..........UNLESS it was a monster :eek: Bad shots are taken by people who know they are bad and just don't care or simply have no clue. Either way they deserve no lattitude. Good post Atlas!!!!!:):):) |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
Atlas were I have the issue who decsides what is good or bad? Atlas made a terrific shot this year by his descrption, one I would not even consider to take. Does that make it a bad shot? I think it's not my place to judge anyone's shot as good or bad. I have my defination and Atlas has his. I agree with Atlas on a lot of points, watchsome of thehunting shows, there are some "strange" shots guys are taking. We all have live with our choice. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
One of the questions that popped up in my thread "Weird deer" was the ethics police. It seems that no matter what you do, there will always be someone who will criticize your choices. And it doesn't matter how much experience you have.
I did like the posts by John Deer and atlasman. They covered a spectrum of items to consider. One thing that hasn't really been covered yet is equipment. How well is the equipment tuned? How does the equipment fit the shooter? Is the equipment a properly matched set for the application? How does the shooter really practice with the equipment? Let's cover a few of these questions. I'm a big believer in the bow/arrows being tuned to the point where the FTs and BHs hit in the same spot. It is MY belief that this produces the most efficient weapon. Many bandaid the problem by the use of mechanical BHs. BTW, I use both fixed and mechanical BHs and right now there are both in my quiver. The reason I use both is because I'm constantly testing all types of BHs. On a daily basis I see hunters who are set up with too long a DL. I have a way to show those willing to listen how that affects their performance/confidence. Many believe that target shooting and hunting require the same set of standards. That is not true. Hunting set-ups have more limitations due to the conditions to which hunters are subjected. There are other 'fit' requirements but they are not quite as pronounced as the DL problem. BTW, the DL problem can be amplified by the choice of manufacturer that is chosen. Matching the equipment to the game can be another problem. Shot placement becomes more critical if lesser equipment is used. For instance, like it or not, KE can help or hurt. Low KE after bigger game is not as good as higher KE. I had one customer (I didn't fit him)who used a 2" cut mechanical BH with 47# DWon a bull elk. Needless to say, he came home very disappointed when a wounded animal walked away. This type of poor choice of equipment is what has made most big game guides disallow the use of mechanical BHs. A hunter should practice the way he hunts. Full hunting gear/clothing, treestand shooting if he/she uses one, bending and twisting during the shot, and something I do to add confidence - rapid shooting. Too many stand on level ground two weeks before the season starts, in short sleeve shirts, and shoot at paper. I would like to think that the 'experienced' hunter would take the extra effort to prepare for what he/she will find in the field. I would also like to think that any hunter not really think that experience gives him/her any more latitude; but, that experience at the moment of truth will dictate whether or not to take the shot. Shot selection is the best shot you've got under the circumstances. The question I ask myself in a split second, based on my experience, is whether or not the percentages are high enough for me to pull the trigger. The ethics of the shot is something that only you can determine and something that you mayhave to live with the rest of your life. I know this deviated a little, but the equipment subject is something that is dear to my heart. Too often I see poor equipment used no matter what isthe experience of the shooteror shot placement capabilities.[:@] |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
Germ it was a question I answered it, I dont know what you are getting at.
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: TeeJay Germ it was a question I answered it, I dont know what you are getting at. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
O-tay
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
TJ
I am baking cookies for my daughters party , so I am not giving 100% focus;) Len Shot selection is the best shot you've got under the circumstances. The question I ask myself in a split second, based on my experience, is whether or not the percentages are high enough for me to pull the trigger. The ethics of the shot is something that only you can determine and something that you mayhave to live with the rest of your life. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
To me the definition of an ethical shot is:
The soft route to the boiler room, that I know I can hit. If there is any doubt that it can be done, I don't take the shot. This confidenceCAN increase with time. It is not experience alone though that will increase this confidence. I know some seasoned hunters who still choke at the moment, and some beginners who will slam it home every time. It all boils down to the individual, and his own personal capabilities and knowledge of what he or she is up against. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: Germ Atlas were I have the issue who decsides what is good or bad? Atlas made a terrific shot this year by his descrption, one I would not even consider to take. Does that make it a bad shot? I think it's not my place to judge anyone's shot as good or bad. I have my defination and Atlas has his. This is the quicksand grey area I tried to avoid earlier. One point not covered is how equipment these days factors into people's belief in what they can or can't do from the treetops. My Summit had as much to do with my deer kill this year as anything else...........if I was in a little portable or something that deer walks. Fast bows, big sharp heads, sturdy stands and good camo all lead to increased confidence (right or wrong). |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I would say we agree, must be the season Atlas.
Good Post |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: Len in Maryland A hunter should practice the way he hunts. Full hunting gear/clothing, treestand shooting if he/she uses one, bending and twisting during the shot, and something I do to add confidence - rapid shooting. Too many stand on level ground two weeks before the season starts, in short sleeve shirts, and shoot at paper. IMO this is as important if not more.......then anything else. Nice to see someone else does the rapid shooting thing too ;) That is an eye opener for people who have never done it..........again, not really sure why because as we all know deer NEVER surprise you and appear out of nowhere giving you only 2-3 seconds to make and execute about a 10 step process under stressful conditions. That doesn't happen much............they all come out and stand broadside right at 20 yards just like that Delta Backyard Buck you have at home ;) |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: Germ I would say we agree, must be the season Atlas. Good Post Merry Christmas. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
ORIGINAL: atlasman ORIGINAL: Germ I would say we agree, must be the season Atlas. Good Post Merry Christmas. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I didn't read anything past Germs first response.
GOOD ANSWER and my sintiments exactly. I have taken a couple shots that I would get flamed for on here from trying to explain the situation but I am the one there and I have the experience to know whether or not my abilities and my equipment are up to the task. I shot a deer one time where the kill was completely covered by brush(I could still see the kill zone,it was just covered).[:o]But knowing the ARC of my arrow at specific distances,I was able to lay the pin where it belongs and I watched my arrow fly right over the brush and go right through the heart and lungs.Deer expired in 20 yards. This was all after stopping the deer TWICE.Absolutely no time to think,all reaction. I don't think an inexperienced hunter would/shouldtake this shot. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
This is good guys, lots of great points, I'll have more time tomorrow to give my own opinions to my question.
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
When I practice with friends, we will pull back and not shoot until the other guy says that the shot is there. It is interesting to see how your efficiency drops with each passing second past your normal holding time. This has come in handy before with a bull that hangs up!!!
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
I do some weird practice.I sometimes will stand on 1 leg at 30 yards and shoot.This helps you learn how to use your upper body for balance.
I will practice shooting with my body facing away from the target and twisting all the way around.This is also at 30 yards. Try either of these with a draw length that is too long and you will have a bad day.:D This is what gives hunters experience.They know from the field what might present itself while in the field. Like Len shooting a right handed bow left handed and wearing a release on both hands.:eek: Not exactly what many would even consider.Definately not something for the inexperienced.;) |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I also like to swap bows with my hunting companions at the range and find out how the other guys equipment shoots for me. It came in handy once on a back country elk hunt. The guys bow was out of comission, and he knew where mine shot and ended up killing his elk with my bow on that trip. Otherwise hunting would have been out of the question.
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RE: Experience VS shot selection
Since I have Been bowhunting biggame 50 years (this year) I think I know where I should put the arrow (anatomy) & I "DO" know how my equipt. works. My decision is based on distance for me-I "know" I can spot out through 50 yards on a target but when I am in the field I keep them under 30 yards 99% of the time. Yes, the position of my quarry, but I am pretty patient & wait for the right shot. Yes, I have passed on some pretty good animals "REAL" close just becausethey did not present the right position.
Win some, loose some. I have let some real trophies pass for several reasons-wrong angle, a little to much brush or just a little to far. Each situation is different but after this many years-I have set my own limits. The other 1% 2 Elk at 35 yds. a Buffalo at 41 yards & a dandy Buck at 35 yards. Deer, Bears, Hogs, Caribou, Rams & a few others-all under 30 yards. I have been fortunate in blood trails too-pretty short....Good Luck. Common sence is the best guide in the field...I have 34 Biggame animals with recurve & wood arrows &I guess nearly 150 with compound. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
ahunter55
Common since is gained through experience.;) Good post. Oh yeah,I did go back and read all the post.:) |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
I catch a lot of flack......lots of times hidden within other posts.....for being a "novice" hunter. If I've heard the "he's only been hunting a year" phrase thrown around once.....I've heard it 100 times.
What makes a hunter "experienced"? I've been 76 days in the field in my 1+ yrs hunting whitetails....with my previous hunting experience notwithstanding. I saw over 340 animals from stand THIS YEAR......and my "encounters" far outnumber people I know who have been hunting for years. I harvested 5 whitetail deer with my bow THIS SEASON.....and I'd match that with most. I have 3 outdoor targets that my son and I utilizefor practice. I've read more books and magazines than anyone I know about this passion. I watch everyshow my wife will let me get away with. I go to the hunting shows that involve whitetails. I practice at the indoor range when the guys are down there. I shoot the 3D indoor tournaments Greg puts on all Spring. I have a ladder stand at my home that we practice out of all year long on our 3D targes. Am I experienced? Do I have as much experience as the guy who hunts 10x a year for8 yrs and has 100 encounters.....harvesting 5 animals? What's the standard? Am I allowed the lattitude an "Experienced" would be? I know my shots that I regret will come fewer and further between. I remember each one. I also remember times when I didn't shoot......and I KNOW others would. Jeff |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
Our knowledge as experienced bowhunters has been gained as much by failures, as the times we have succeeded.In fact our experiences probably make us less likely to take a shot.
As an inexperienced hunter we do not tend to not see the limb or branch.In our minds eye we seethe animal and look for the shot. As we gain experience we tend to look for what can go wrong. We may be more aware of what's going to happen, such as a tail-wag prior to movement or a well timed grunt to get the angle we need. This may allow us to take a better shot. But it will also give us the insight, to not touch that release if the shot does not present itself. Can Ishoot throughthat hole in the brush that's pie plate sized at 30 yards. Yes, I know I can my time on the range dictates that I will succeed 98 times out of 100.However in a hunting situation is 98% good enough to release that arrow, that 2% of doubt will probably keep the experience guy from shooting. Expirience is a great teacher and it continues for each of us. The guy that's shot 20 basket size bucks..will his thought process go haywire when that 150 class animal steps out in a so-so position? He is a great shot at the range, but now.. how is his breathing and heart-rate what factors are changing his normal abilities? Only through being in these situations will one know how to react. Can you let down, knowing that today, you can't make the accurate shot needed for a quick kill? Experience teaches us that being put in this situation is the hunt...the animal on the ground is the kill. That's why we are called hunters and not killers. |
RE: Experience VS shot selection
Jeff no offence ok, but I think expirience onlt comes with time. You hunted your butt off this year and had a good year....kudos for that. The back up quarterback that gets thrown in the Super Bowl cause the starter is hurt and wins the game....is he expirenced? No he is trained big difference. Like posted before expirence isnt the cure all either, I have read and know of many archers that have made poor decisions recently. Im sorry 1 year of hunting doen not make a seasoned hunter JMO.
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