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Big Country

11-29-2002 10:49 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

kgkoon, while I only shoot does and big bucks(140" and up)I certainly enjoy hunting for all the same reasons as you do! I get the most enjoyment from just watching everything there is to see while on stand. I love listening to my hunting buddies stories from their days hunt. I really enjoy seeing a young hunter shooting a deer, any deer to make them happy.
As far as trophy hunters being "competitive hunters", perception is a funny thing. I can objectively look at this statement and see your point. I could also make the same statement about a seasoned hunter with many kills under his belt and say that they are the competitive hunters. They MUST KILL a buck, any buck, no matter how small, to prove they can kill.
Perception is a funny thing.
And before someone gets the wrong perception that I feel superior to anyone because I shoot "trophy bucks only" allow me to point out that I took over 50 small to medium sized bucks with a bow before I decided to hunt the way I do now. For me, it was the best decision I ever made. I no longer feel the need to kill a buck just for the sake of doing it.
One other plus is that it is a good excuse for not tagging out, as big bucks don`t usually walk past you on the first morning of the season opener.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>I get much more time in the timber now, and really enjoy it more.
If you enjoy shooting small bucks, if that is what truly makes you happy, then that is what you should do. My way has sound game management behind it, but the herd will survive without everyone jumping on board.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

davidmil

11-30-2002 04:20 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

KGkoon.... Thank you. You pretty much summed it up. I'm simply a hunter. I shoot them because they're legal and I enjoy it. I'm not in it to watch the deer. If I wish to be a bird watcher I can reduce the weight of my pack and just carry the binos. I guess I'll have to move to Illinois where the 2 and a half year old deer are so stupid you can throw rocks at them and kill them. How many of you people are fortunated enough to have stupid deer around.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Those of you who say you'll only shoot 140 class deer or larger sure do lead a sheltered life. You hunt some public ground in NY, Maryland or PA and you'd never have to shoot an arrow. I can almost guarantee you'd never see an animal worthy of your bother. Don't bring any rocks to hunt with either as you'll never get a Rock Shot.

CAJUNBOWHNTR

11-30-2002 05:18 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Is practicing QDM and letting 1 1/2 old bucks walk trophy hunting? Our area will never produce many B&C deer.We used to shoot everthing that was legal on our lease.We killed alot of young bucks.But that's pretty much all we killed.Probably 60-75% of our 1 1/2 bucks were killed each year.Our buck to doe ratio was 10-1.We saw no rutting sign,none.Our herd was way out of wack.We can legally kill 5 does.If you can shoot 5 does why would you NEED to kill a forkhorn buck?Letting a deer walk knowing you could have killed him can be just as satisfying.The indians called it counting coup.Now I do hunt to kill deer and between me and my sons we kill around 6-8 deer each year.But since we have stopped shooting juvenile bucks our overall hunting experience has increased greatly.My 17 year old son has killed more mature rack deer in the last 5 years than I killed in the previous ten years hunting our lease.Now I have seen guys go overboard with the "trophy" mentality.I don't buy the don't shoot it if your not going to mount it philosiphy.But shooting does and letting young bucks rech maturity has created a more natural balanced deer herd on our lease.We actually see bucks chasing does now.We see a harder more defined rut.Back when our ratio was 10 to 1 I once saw a doe with a spotted fawn in december.That's how out of balance our herd was.Our deer weigh more now,they're healthier.Praticing QDM does not necessarily mean trophy hunting.It's about having a balanced age structure and healthy deer herd.I was'nt a believer in it at first.But I have seen first hand the benefits of QDM.

BIlly

WHACKEM N STACKEM

BOWFANATIC

11-30-2002 06:38 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Last year I did ask one question, that I have yet to see a legitimate answer to.
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possibly WANT to shoot smaller bucks?

I forgot to add this....BOWDACIOUS, you did the right thing bud. If, and when hunting for only big bucks turns into no fun for me, I will do whatever it takes(within the law) to bring the fun back into it!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Edited by - Big Country on 11/29/2002 20:56:46
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Your question was answered several times! In fact , you answered your own question with your reply to BOWDACIOUS.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

BOWFANATIC

11-30-2002 06:47 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Now I have seen guys go overboard with the "trophy" mentality.I don't buy the don't shoot it if your not going to mount it philosiphy.
WHACKEM N STACKEM
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Neither do I!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>http://community.webshots.com/user/1bowfanatic

RICHIE3

11-30-2002 08:40 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>I have noticed that you are not responding to any of these arguments I have put in, whats up?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Heheheheh!!! This one is hilarious!!! This is your "tell" or "sign" of weakness towards this debate! Do not confuse my lack of a quick response time to being scared. I have other things that need tending too, beside this thread.
You claim victory before the war is over.

SW Iowa Hunter,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Why is antler size so important to your hunting?
Can you see that it is not that important to alot of people?
What worries me about these threads is that alot of young people are on this site and get ripped for shooting something that is not big enough.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Antler size is important for the quality of the herd in my area. Mark my words, the experienced hunters that it is not important to, will wind up in the same boat as the states with point restrictions. I can see that it is not important to many here, this is the point or message I am trying to get out there. Keep shooting smaller bucks, and regulation from doing so will soon follow. I have never "ripped" any youngster from shooting a small buck, but if an experienced hunter harvests one and then proceeds to challenge the folks who thought he did wrong, I will jump right in and give my two cents worth!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Healthy deer herds? Nature will take care of that? People argue about habitat man is destroying and justify more intrusion by man with QDM with this argument.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think it is great that you and others have chosen to only shoot mature bucks, I won't argue that this leads to better genetics and healthier deer ultimately.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Wow! Let's not talk about me chasing my tail anymore. These two quotes do enough of it already. First you are condemning QDM practices, and then turn around and agree with the very point of this argument that I am making!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>QDM takes a large amount of land to be effective. You cannot effectively manage a deer herd without control over the land they are on. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is not true. QDM can be practiced and has been practiced well with one hundred acres or less.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Enjoy the right you have to hunt, and let everyone else enjoy theirs. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is what I am trying to accomplish by helping out the herd with QDM techniques so everyone can enjoy it in the future. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I went the trophy-hunting route for a while you know what happened four years in a row. The buck I was hunting ended up in the grill of someone's car. No joke. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This argument proves that QDM works. If you've had four quality bucks hit by cars four years running, I would say it works.

Tazman, <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> RICHIE and all others, I see RICHIE has acknowledged that in certain instances, taking a dink/scrub bucks, is beneficial to the overall herd in QDM standards, there are some other reasons posted here that jusify the taking of lesser bucks. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is a nice try at trying to make me look foolish, why don't you go back and post my entire answer to the senario that you described earlier? It is not how you make it out to be now. Scrub bucks are different from younger bucks, and I state this and how I would react to this situation. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I will say this though, if next year I notice a big increase in basket 8's, I may just take one. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

Skeeter, <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> In this given situation, I would tag the "scrub", since I have a good shot opp and three tags, knowing the area, that he really does nothing to my herd for the buck-side, and I don't need more does. So, his worth is minimal. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is exactly what I said in my answer.

JRW,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I shoot what I shoot because I choose to. Justification to you or anyone else is not even on the radar of consideration. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> No, you don't need to hunt. You won't die if you don't shoot a deer. For some reason, I highly doubt they starve to death if you don't kill a deer or two for them. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

Once again, your argument comparing this debate to gun ownership, PETA, or Sarah Brady, is not a good example to compare to.

Skeeter,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> That last thing I (or you) want or need is to be told...no that is all wrong. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This will indeed happen if experienced hunters keep choosing to harvest young bucks.

Big Country,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

kgkoon,
You can still enjoy all the activities of a deer camp without having to shoot smaller bucks. I enjoy seeing a youngster get excited about shooting a buck as much as the next guy. But, this argument or debate is about experienced hunters shooting small bucks.

Big Country,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I really enjoy seeing a young hunter shoot a deer, any deer to make them happy. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I do too, once again, see my response above. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I no longer feel the need to kill a buck just for the sake of doing it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I'm glad to hear that, I'm sorry to say this is the thinking of most on this thread and in the hunting community as a whole.

Davidmil,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I shoot them because they're legal and I enjoy it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Well, my friend, enjoy it now because it won't last. This is the sure way to antler restrictions. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Those of you who say you'll only shoot 140 class deer or larger sure do lead a sheltered life. You hunt some public ground in NY, Maryland or PA, and you'd never have to shoot an arrow. I can almost guarantee you'd never see an animal worthy of your bother. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Why is this? Sounds to me like they could use a good dose of QDM techniques. If everybody (experienced hunters) were on the same page on this one, this wouldn't be the case in these areas.

CAJUNBOWHNTR,
Great overall post!

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

On a side note, I would like to thank my wife for typing these responses for me! All answers are strictly my own, and without her help in typing them, my fingers would be bloody and I would not even be half way done!!! God, I love her so!!

She also thinks that if we all put the same effort into chores around the house as we do here in this debate, the world would be a much nicer place for everyone...........especially the wives of the group!!!<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - richie3 on 11/30/2002 09:52:17

BOWFANATIC

11-30-2002 10:05 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

You keep saying if hunters dont stop shooting young bucks , antler restrictions are soon to come? Please explain this! The states that have imposed antler restrictions have had low doe harvests , so they did what they believe will increase the doe harvest period! If I live in a state that has an excellent doe harvest and yet we still have a large amount of young bucks harvested , what will your warning be?

You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

How does it put them in financial strain? You already condemned the farmers in my area (which you know nothing about) for shooting any type of deer because of crop damage. Which btw was a very ligitimate answer to your question which you chose to downplay with zero factual evidence. Who's answering questions based on emotion???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

Still avoiding the answers to your question? You've been answered several times and yet you pick out the vague , yet most important answer to your question , simply because of it's vagueness.

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

Once again , read all replies and dont skip the ones that give true arguement to your "debate". And for the record , I've given you answers other than "I choose to" (<did I even say that?) What type of factual evidence are you looking for? You haven't provided any! Do you want to see the crop damage reports in my area? Shall I provide you with names and phone numbers of the farmers in my area so you can tell them their all wrong? How much time have you spent in our national forests (northern Wi) to make an educated statement towards a hunter who shoots the first buck he sees because it might very well be the first buck he's seen in a few years? And dont say , why is that? We're talking about vast forests which dont hold the deer numbers that farm country does?

JRW	11-30-2002 10:43 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

"For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside.

I'm not sure what part of "personal choice" isn't getting understood here, but I'm not fluent in any language aside from English. I can recomend a good translation site, if need be. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

"You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact."

Yep. Pull the other one.

JRW

RICHIE3

11-30-2002 11:05 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

You keep saying if hunters dont stop shooting young bucks , antler restrictions are soon to come? Please explain this! The states that have imposed antler restrictions have had low doe harvests , so they did what they believe will increase the doe harvest period! If I live in a state that has an excellent doe harvest and yet we still have a large amount of young bucks harvested , what will your warning be?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Number one, and once again, This debate is about experienced hunters shooting young bucks or not. Not all hunters.

The states that have antler restrictions have had low doe harvests?????Please explain what type of harvests they have been having then!! If the number of does harvested is very low, this must mean one thing, that too many bucks are being harvested!!! So, an imposed antler restriction is just that---a restricition that limits the hunter to what they can harvest legally!! This is what I have been saying all along!! If hunters do not change their ways, antler restrictions are soon to follow!!! I don't want it to get to a point in my state to where more restrictions are imposed!! Foremost and first of all, for all of the young or inexperienced hunters who need to take smaller bucks for their first kill!!! The last thing I want to do is tell a kid that he/she cannot shoot that buck in front of them because it is too small!!! But again, this thread is about the experienced hunter, not the young and inexperienced hunters!!!!!

The warning will be the number of buck sightings all together, getting less and less. Mark my words, sooner or later, just about every state will impose antler restrctions due to this thinking that refuses to be changed.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
How does it put them in financial strain? You already condemned the farmers in my area (which you know nothing about) for shooting any type of deer because of crop damage. Which btw was a very ligitimate answer to your question which you chose to downplay with zero factual evidence. Who's answering questions based on emotion???<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I am answering the question, and it is not based on emotion. I never condemned "your area farmers" for anything. I stated that I am far from a stranger to the farming community, and the farmers that I know have never complained about crop damage to a degree to where it will be on the verge of breaking them. I know it, and they know it. Deer do minimal damage to crops, but so do racoons, squirrels, possums, crows, ect. Don't twist my words around.

There are more than just crop farmers in n.w. Missouri, but the bulk of them are. It just so happens that the people that I hunt on, were left the farm thru family that has since passed. To keep it in the family, they are choosing to try to make it on their own, and are having a difficult time of doing so. If I can harvest my 3 does a year during rifle season to help them out, so be it, whether you believe it or not. This is why I need to hunt!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Still avoiding the answers to your question? You've been answered several times and yet you pick out the vague , yet most important answer to your question , simply because of it's vagueness.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I am not avoiding anything. I know that it is a right for one to shoot what ever they choose. I am just saying, and have always said, that if experienced hunters do not change their ways, more restrictions are soon to follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Once again , read all replies and dont skip the ones that give true arguement to your "debate".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I will tell you what, let's you and I go head to head on questions and answers. You pose and number whatever question it is you would like to know an answer from me, and I will answer it. I guess highlighting and quoting every contradictary statement against me isn't good enough for you. So, you go ahead and go back thru this thread, and show me the questions I have failed to answer for you.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> And for the record , I've given you answers other than "I choose to" (<did I even say that?)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is not true at all. This has been the basis of argument the "cons" or people who do not believe in QDM, have been stating all along.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What type of factual evidence are you looking for? You haven't provided any! Do you want to see the crop damage reports in my area? Shall I provide you with names and phone numbers of the farmers in my area so you can tell them their all wrong? How much time have you spent in our national forests (northern Wi) to make an educated statement towards a hunter who shoots the first buck he sees because it might very well be the first buck he's seen in a few years? And dont say , why is that? We're talking about vast forests which dont hold the deer numbers that farm country does? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

LOL.....There you go again......Dancing around your own words when you don't even realize it!!!!

Go ahead and explain to me how the farmers in your area can have sooo much crop damage, when YOU have just got done saying that the area does not hold the deer numbers???? If you are refering to the "farm country" holding more deer and do more damage, I WILL completely disagree with you. Farmers know the game there, just as they do here!! If they do not claim some sort of loss in the name of "crop damage" or "flood damage" or something like that, they will not recieve their insurance, government subsidies, ect.!!!! I know the game well, and so do they!!!
So you can spout off and yell "crop damage" and claim to show me numbers all you want!! I know better!!! I do not blame the farmers for it either!!! They are what this country is based on in my opinion, and DESERVE all of the breaks that they can get!!!

davidmil

11-30-2002 12:10 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have noticed that you are not responding to any of these arguments I have put in, whats up?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heheheheh!!! This one is hilarious!!! This is your "tell" or "sign" of weakness towards this debate! Do not confuse my lack of a quick response time to being scared. I have other things that need tending too, beside this thread.
You claim victory before the war is over.

SW Iowa Hunter,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is antler size so important to your hunting?
Can you see that it is not that important to alot of people?
What worries me about these threads is that alot of young people are on this site and get ripped for shooting something that is not big enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Antler size is important for the quality of the herd in my area. Mark my words, the experienced hunters that it is not important to, will wind up in the same boat as the states with point restrictions. I can see that it is not important to many here, this is the point or message I am trying to get out there. Keep shooting smaller bucks, and regulation from doing so will soon follow. I have never "ripped" any youngster from shooting a small buck, but if an experienced hunter harvests one and then proceeds to challenge the folks who thought he did wrong, I will jump right in and give my two cents worth!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Healthy deer herds? Nature will take care of that? People argue about habitat man is destroying and justify more intrusion by man with QDM with this argument.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it is great that you and others have chosen to only shoot mature bucks, I won't argue that this leads to better genetics and healthier deer ultimately.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow! Let's not talk about me chasing my tail anymore. These two quotes do enough of it already. First you are condemning QDM practices, and then turn around and agree with the very point of this argument that I am making!!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QDM takes a large amount of land to be effective. You cannot effectively manage a deer herd without control over the land they are on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not true. QDM can be practiced and has been practiced well with one hundred acres or less.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enjoy the right you have to hunt, and let everyone else enjoy theirs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I am trying to accomplish by helping out the herd with QDM techniques so everyone can enjoy it in the future.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went the trophy-hunting route for a while you know what happened four years in a row. The buck I was hunting ended up in the grill of someone's car. No joke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This argument proves that QDM works. If you've had four quality bucks hit by cars four years running, I would say it works.

Tazman,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RICHIE and all others, I see RICHIE has acknowledged that in certain instances, taking a dink/scrub bucks, is beneficial to the overall herd in QDM standards, there are some other reasons posted here that jusify the taking of lesser bucks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a nice try at trying to make me look foolish, why don't you go back and post my entire answer to the senario that you described earlier? It is not how you make it out to be now. Scrub bucks are different from younger bucks, and I state this and how I would react to this situation.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will say this though, if next year I notice a big increase in basket 8's, I may just take one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

Skeeter,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this given situation, I would tag the "scrub", since I have a good shot opp and three tags, knowing the area, that he really does nothing to my herd for the buck-side, and I don't need more does. So, his worth is minimal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is exactly what I said in my answer.

JRW,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I shoot what I shoot because I choose to. Justification to you or anyone else is not even on the radar of consideration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you don't need to hunt. You won't die if you don't shoot a deer. For some reason, I highly doubt they starve to death if you don't kill a deer or two for them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

Once again, your argument comparing this debate to gun ownership, PETA, or Sarah Brady, is not a good example to compare to.

Skeeter,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That last thing I (or you) want or need is to be told...no that is all wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This will indeed happen if experienced hunters keep choosing to harvest young bucks.

Big Country,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

kgkoon,
You can still enjoy all the activities of a deer camp without having to shoot smaller bucks. I enjoy seeing a youngster get excited about shooting a buck as much as the next guy. But, this argument or debate is about experienced hunters shooting small bucks.

Big Country,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really enjoy seeing a young hunter shoot a deer, any deer to make them happy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do too, once again, see my response above.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I no longer feel the need to kill a buck just for the sake of doing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad to hear that, I'm sorry to say this is the thinking of most on this thread and in the hunting community as a whole.

Davidmil,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I shoot them because they're legal and I enjoy it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, my friend, enjoy it now because it won't last. This is the sure way to antler restrictions.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those of you who say you'll only shoot 140 class deer or larger sure do lead a sheltered life. You hunt some public ground in NY, Maryland or PA, and you'd never have to shoot an arrow. I can almost guarantee you'd never see an animal worthy of your bother.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is this? Sounds to me like they could use a good dose of QDM techniques. If everybody (experienced hunters) were on the same page on this one, this wouldn't be the case in these areas.

CAJUNBOWHNTR,
Great overall post!

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

On a side note, I would like to thank my wife for typing these responses for me! All answers are strictly my own, and without her help in typing them, my fingers would be bloody and I would not even be half way done!!! God, I love her so!!

She also thinks that if we all put the same effort into chores around the house as we do here in this debate, the world would be a much nicer place for everyone...........especially the wives of the group!!!

Edited by - richie3 on 11/30/2002 09:52:17

BOWFANATIC
Non Typical

USA
1104 Posts Posted - 11/30/2002 : 11:05:21
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Just keep it up, and antler restrictions are soon to follow. If they are scrub bucks that are not developing into quality animals, by all means, take them out. But, just because there are numerous small basket rack bucks, does not necessarily mean that they are all scrub bucks.

You keep saying if hunters dont stop shooting young bucks , antler restrictions are soon to come? Please explain this! The states that have imposed antler restrictions have had low doe harvests , so they did what they believe will increase the doe harvest period! If I live in a state that has an excellent doe harvest and yet we still have a large amount of young bucks harvested , what will your warning be?

You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact.

How does it put them in financial strain? You already condemned the farmers in my area (which you know nothing about) for shooting any type of deer because of crop damage. Which btw was a very ligitimate answer to your question which you chose to downplay with zero factual evidence. Who's answering questions based on emotion???

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If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possible WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
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This is the question I have posed several times. The only so-called answer that I receive, is that they "choose to". This type of thinking will eventually lead to necessary restrictions by state agencies to help out the deer herd again.

Still avoiding the answers to your question? You've been answered several times and yet you pick out the vague , yet most important answer to your question , simply because of it's vagueness.

BOWFANATIC,
This question was not answered for the sake of this debate. A debate is having a stance and backing it up with factual information. Not just an answer like "I choose to".

Once again , read all replies and dont skip the ones that give true arguement to your "debate". And for the record , I've given you answers other than "I choose to" (<did I even say that?) What type of factual evidence are you looking for? You haven't provided any! Do you want to see the crop damage reports in my area? Shall I provide you with names and phone numbers of the farmers in my area so you can tell them their all wrong? How much time have you spent in our national forests (northern Wi) to make an educated statement towards a hunter who shoots the first buck he sees because it might very well be the first buck he's seen in a few years? And dont say , why is that? We're talking about vast forests which dont hold the deer numbers that farm country does?

JRW
Non Typical

USA
1897 Posts Posted - 11/30/2002 : 11:43:58
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"For the sake of this debate, it is justifiable, if you choose not to justify your answers, kindly step aside.

I'm not sure what part of "personal choice" isn't getting understood here, but I'm not fluent in any language aside from English. I can recomend a good translation site, if need be.

"You are wrong about this statement, I do need to harvest animals for the farmers I hunt on. If not, it puts them in financial strain. I'm sorry I can't prove that fact, but it is a fact."

Yep. Pull the other one.

JRW

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

There are to many QUOTES!!!!!!

talmage bartlett

11-30-2002 12:17 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

hmm well i think any deer can be a trophy just depends who kills it i got what many people would consider a trophy but there was a little basket following behind it that i would have shot and would have considered it a trophy too because i've never killed a deer i got my monster during bow season then the opening day of shotgun i saw another real nice eight pointer and i was completely not excited by it because i knew i couldn't shot it so i just hoped it went over to my friends stand because he would have killed to get a buck like that but it didn't oh well

BOWFANATIC

11-30-2002 02:00 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

The states that have antler restrictions have had low doe harvests?????Please explain what type of harvests they have been having then!! If the number of does harvested is very low, this must mean one thing, that too many bucks are being harvested!!! So, an imposed antler restriction is just that---a restricition that limits the hunter to what they can harvest legally!! This is what I have been saying all along!! If hunters do not change their ways, antler restrictions are soon to follow!!! I don't want it to get to a point in my state to where more restrictions are imposed!! Foremost and first of all, for all of the young or inexperienced hunters who need to take smaller bucks for their first kill!!! The last thing I want to do is tell a kid that he/she cannot shoot that buck in front of them because it is too small!!! But again, this thread is about the experienced hunter, not the young and inexperienced hunters!!!!!

Exactly! The states with low doe harvests are being forced into antler restrictions to increase the doe harvest. My question to you was , what about the states who have a good doe harvest , ie Wi has two doe only seasons in addition to bow and gun season. We get a good doe harvest , so do you condemn the "experienced hunter" who shoots young bucks in this scenario?

The warning will be the number of buck sightings all together, getting less and less. Mark my words, sooner or later, just about every state will impose antler restrctions due to this thinking that refuses to be changed.

And my warning to those states who are forcing doe harvests by imposing antler restrictions would be , watch the number of deer sightings get less and less. They (Alt) can give you all the QDM or TBM crap they want. Their only goal is to drastically reduce the entire deer herd numbers by harvesting more does.

I am answering the question, and it is not based on emotion. I never condemned "your area farmers" for anything. I stated that I am far from a stranger to the farming community, and the farmers that I know have never complained about crop damage to a degree to where it will be on the verge of breaking them. I know it, and they know it. Deer do minimal damage to crops, but so do racoons, squirrels, possums, crows, ect. Don't twist my words around.

I dont even know how to respond to that reply. You have certainly ruined your knowlege of the farming community credibility with that statement. Have you ever seen first hand what alot of deer can do to a soybean field? Corn fields dont get quite the damage as a bean field but still enough to pinch your pocket book if it's your bread and butter.

Go ahead and explain to me how the farmers in your area can have sooo much crop damage, when YOU have just got done saying that the area does not hold the deer numbers???? If you are refering to the "farm country" holding more deer and do more damage, I WILL completely disagree with you. Farmers know the game there, just as they do here!! If they do not claim some sort of loss in the name of "crop damage" or "flood damage" or something like that, they will not recieve their insurance, government subsidies, ect.!!!! I know the game well, and so do they!!!
So you can spout off and yell "crop damage" and claim to show me numbers all you want!! I know better!!! I do not blame the farmers for it either!!! They are what this country is based on in my opinion, and DESERVE all of the breaks that they can get!!!

Spout off?? You know better? Sure doesn't sound like it! I've given you logical answers to your questions and in return you bare your teeth and accuse me of "spouting off"?? How I wish the farmers in my area had computers so I could email this page to them. They would get a kick out of your analagy. Especially how they claim crop damage just for the extra money , pathetic! Crop damage subsidies dont cover HALF of the actual crop damage.
And just so you dont think I'm talking in circles. The farm country (my area) has the over population problems. The national forests (where a guy is justified in shooting the first buck he sees) are in northern Wisconsin. It's a mix of not as big of deer population and vast (mile and miles) forest.
I dont have any questions for you , but feel free to number your questions and we'll be glad to answer them again.

nmaineron

11-30-2002 05:01 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I'm just a low life meat hunter.My season ended tonight at sundown and after spending around 80 hours sitting on my butt waiting for a taggable deer to walk by I sit here still holding my tag.I saw three does in this time at the same time so I had a lot of empty hours.

I hunt when I can and I got lucky and was able to get a weeks vacation.Hunting for deer is my passion and I do it all year long through scouting and generally just watching.

Could any of you that promote the passing of all of these insignificant deer spend this much time on stand and keep your focus on a trophy?I bet not for long.I would love to be in your shoes just don't make me wear them cause they are way to big!

Big Country

11-30-2002 06:26 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I am not going to post direct quotes, and then respond to them, rather just touch on a couple and the authors will know which ones are being addressed.
I don`t live in, nor have I ever hunted in Maine. Been there many times, beautiful state! I don`t know what your game laws concerning deer are in maine, but I think that deer populations in maine are not real high. Anyway, nothing wrong with being a meat hunter, I have a deepfreeze full of freshly killed deer meat myself. Mature does, to be exact. 80 hours on stand, that does not even sniff the hours I have on stand this year without dropping the string on a buck. Does`nt bother me a bit. I am not done yet, though. My standards will not go down during the last few days of my hunts this season.
That being said, if you want to shoot small, young bucks, you won`t hear any tirades from me. I won`t buy into any of your theories that it is OK(unless you are a new hunter)but you won`t be verbally attacked.
The arguement put forth by some that it is legal to shot little bucks is lame, it is legal to pierce your nose too, so go ahead and do that while you are at it!

Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!

BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!

Somewhere in this debate it was pointed out that what do you trophy hunters do if you shoot an absolute monster? You cannot go backwards right!
WRONG! If I am fortunate enough to shoot a 180" buck with my bow, I would have no problem shooting a 150" later on if the opportunity presented itself.

I may have misrepresented my stance when I stated that I would only shoot a 140" or bigger buck. That is when I hunt the midwest.
If a 125-130" buck comes past me in PA, or W.Va, I WILL let the air out of him! That is still a pretty respectable buck.

So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RICHIE3

11-30-2002 06:53 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Exactly! The states with low doe harvests are being forced into antler restrictions to increase the doe harvest. My question to you was , what about the states who have a good doe harvest , ie Wi has two doe only seasons in addition to bow and gun season. We get a good doe harvest , so do you condemn the "experienced hunter" who shoots young bucks in this scenario?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Well..I guess I will help you answer some of my questions, since you are not.
#1.Why are there antler restrictions?--It is due to a low doe harvest.
#2.Why is there a low doe harvest?--Either of two things---one is the lack of hunting pressure per huntable acreage in the state, or there are too many bucks being harvested, and the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance.
#3.If too many buck are not getting taken(according to you), why is it that some states(like Missouri and Iowa)changing to "Any Sex" tags instead of "Bucks only" tags?--This is the states way of implementing a lower level of QDM by not restricting holders of "bucks only" tags to resort to taking smaller bucks. In earlier times, having "buck only" tags led many hunters to use their tags on the first available legal buck that presented a shot opportunity.
#4.Why don't the states just allow for more doe tags per hunter?--This is what is taking place now to try to control a situation that is fast getting out of hand. Here in Missouri, the archery season starts Oct.1 and runs to mid January. You are allowed 2 tags of either sex, but cannot take more than 1 buck before the November firearms season. You are also able to buy an additional 5 "antlerless only" tags. The rifle season lasts 11 days with a special "unfilled tag" season in December. The November rifle season allows 1 buck with an "any deer" tag, and three additional antlerless deer with "bonus" tags. This tally does not include any does taken on reserve hunts, refuge hunts, ect., that the Missouri Coservation department holds special draws on federal and state land normally closed to hunting.
#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?--It is due to the fact that they can already detect that the over abundance of does/lack of bucks, or an "unbalanced ratio" of the general herd in these areas, is causing a depletion of the herds health, quality, and ability to reproduce healthy offspring. The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring.
#6. How does this relate to places in the state that are open to the hunting of both bucks and does?--It sets up the same scenario, for lack of better words, of an unbalanced ratio in the states herd. If you get too many does in a state, you have to do something to even the ration between the two. This is done by the taking of more does, and the taking of less bucks.
#7.How do states make this happen?--It can be done in several ways, all of which have the same results. Some states issue more tags for does, to try to lean the hunter towards taking more does, instead of making it a law by point restrictions. Others force point restrictions in their state to curb the taking of small bucks, so as to let the younger bucks have a chance to grow to maturity, thus equalling out the herd after a certain amount of time. Some have special "doe only" hunts to help this situation out in a more timely manner before herds get too out of balance. Missouri is one of these states that have recently acknowledged a mistake of having a "doe only" hunt in the early to mid portion of the month of January. This resulted in the taking of too many bucks that had dropped their antlers already, and were mistaken for does. This is also stated in the "2002 Fall Deer and Turkey Hunting Information" guide.
#8.How can we keep a state from imposing restrictions on the size of a buck that we take?--It is called Quality Deer Management, or QDM. This is the practice of a self regulating hunting individual or community, to promote the balance and health of their local herd. It can be practiced on all levels of participation. A couple of the main objectives in doing this are, food plots special to a deers needs, the harvesting of mature female deer, [i]and the selective harvest of young, immature bucks.[i] The end result is a better, healthier, more balanced herd in the area, with most states agreeing to this philosophy more and more everyday.

My answer to the question you presented to me about questioning or condemning someone who takes a small young buck in a state that has really good doe harvests every year is this. You better believe that I would question it, as long as he/she was an experienced hunter!!!!

What you fail to realize is that QDM can work both ways, even though it is unlikely any state will get to that point. If there are too many bucks in an area, and the buck to doe ratio is heavily leaned towards the bucks, then the exact opposite would be needed. It would be then, and only then, necessary to shoot several smaller bucks to even the ratio back to a managable level.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And my warning to those states who are forcing doe harvests by imposing antler restrictions would be , watch the number of deer sightings get less and less. They (Alt) can give you all the QDM or TBM crap they want. Their only goal is to drastically reduce the entire deer herd numbers by harvesting more does.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> And the reason there are more does is this, too many bucks being taken out of the herd. If your statement was true, they would just issue more tags for any sex of deer, period!!! But, this is not the case now, is it?? They want does taken out of the herd only because of one reason, not enough bucks!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I dont even know how to respond to that reply. You have certainly ruined your knowlege of the farming community credibility with that statement. Have you ever seen first hand what alot of deer can do to a soybean field? Corn fields dont get quite the damage as a bean field but still enough to pinch your pocket book if it's your bread and butter.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Yes, I know exactly what a deer herd can do to a bean field!!! The reason this is, is due to the fact that all the while I was growing up, my backyard was a bean field!!! And it is not near as severe as most farmers make it out to be on the paper handed to the government. What the subsidies do not cover, crop insurance does. I know the game well. So, go ahead and print out my responses about this point, and have them give me a call, E-mail, or whatever. You will not get them to waste their time, because they know what I know!! But, God I love them all for what they do!!!! if it wasn't for them, their would be no country as we know it!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And just so you dont think I'm talking in circles. The farm country (my area) has the over population problems. The national forests (where a guy is justified in shooting the first buck he sees) are in northern Wisconsin. It's a mix of not as big of deer population and vast (mile and miles) forest.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Like I said earlier. There are two main reasons why states impose point restrctions---one is what we are arguing now, the other is the lack of hunters needed in a certain area who are able to keep the doe to buck ratio in check.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I dont have any questions for you , but feel free to number your questions and we'll be glad to answer them again.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Well....I would be just satisfied if you answered them period, which you have failed to do.

P.S.----Thanks a million, Big Country!!!!!

BOWFANATIC

11-30-2002 06:56 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!

Cheap shot? Hardly! I have an opinion on Gary Alt's plan and it differs from trophy hunters , it was hardly a cheap shot. Alt set forth his plan to entice the trophy hunters by way of a "healthy herd" or "trophy herd" which he knew all trophy hunters would bow at his knees. What you dont realize is he has a totally different agenda than you and the rest of the trophy hunters he enticed with his plan. You want big bucks , he wants to eliminate the majority of the deer herd period! Wait a few years , then we'll talk.

BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!

I'm not sure how I caught you?? My comment was regarding wolfen68's post.
Gee , I'll tell you what , since you cant find the time to read all the posts to see where the question was answered intelligently , why dont you number your questions and I'll do my best to answer them. Or was that just a shot at my intelligence??

So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.

LMAO!! An ego thing? The trophy hunter is asking the hunter if it's an ego thing?
Bad herd management? Kinda depends on the state of your current deer herd doesn't it? For those areas that are in dire need of management , would it be kosher with you if all experienced hunters harvested two does before harvesting a young buck? It's all about the health of the herd right?

BOWFANATIC

11-30-2002 07:27 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Nice try Richie!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> And you whine about others trying to make you appear foolish<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> The questions you have numbered have already been answered and some were covered already without you asking.

#1.Antler restrictions in order to increase doe harvest! Already covered that!
#2.Who knows the exact reason why hunters in those areas weren't harvesting more does. Is it truely because the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance? NO WAY! It's a herd reduction tactic!
#3."If too many bucks are not getting taken , according to me"? Where did I say that too many bucks weren't getting taken or were getting taken? I said that my area has a very good buck to doe ratio with a generous doe harvest every season.
#4.Why dont the states just allow more doe tags per hunter? Well , I dont recall you asking me before. Wisconsin is very generous in doe tags and doe only seasons.
#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?-- An obvious answer would be a buck to doe ratio thats way out of wack.
You said: "The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring." That I'd like to see![sarcasm]
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
#6,#7,#8 Once again , if your state has a herd balance thats way out of wack , like too many does -vs- bucks , then it is important to harvest does , but your preaching to everyone everywhere , right?

Answer me one question.

If an experienced hunter shoots two or three does before harvesting a young buck , is that o.k.? Afterall , he would be practicing QDM!

Big Country

11-30-2002 07:50 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

#1 It was not a shot at your intelligence.
#2 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!

I'm not sure how I caught you?? My comment was regarding wolfen68's post.
Gee , I'll tell you what , since you cant find the time to read all the posts to see where the question was answered intelligently , why dont you number your questions and I'll do my best to answer them. Or was that just a shot at my intelligence??

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
UM? <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> quote:
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Last year I did ask one question, that I have yet to see a legitimate answer to.
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possibly WANT to shoot smaller bucks?

I forgot to add this....BOWDACIOUS, you did the right thing bud. If, and when hunting for only big bucks turns into no fun for me, I will do whatever it takes(within the law) to bring the fun back into it!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Edited by - Big Country on 11/29/2002 20:56:46

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Your question was answered several times! In fact , you answered your own question with your reply to BOWDACIOUS.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Sure seems like you were talking to me? And, FWIW, I may not retain 100% of every post, but I have read them all.
#3 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.

LMAO!! An ego thing? The trophy hunter is asking the hunter if it's an ego thing?
Bad herd management? Kinda depends on the state of your current deer herd doesn't it? For those areas that are in dire need of management , would it be kosher with you if all experienced hunters harvested two does before harvesting a young buck? It's all about the health of the herd right?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Harvest two does then a young buck? You are half way there.
And the trophy hunter is not the one that obviously needs to prove he can kill! You are correct about one thing, it would depend upon the condition of the herd at present. By shooting whatever you desire, with no regard to herd management, you have two types of herds.
1. A herd that is unbalanced, thus unhealthy.
2. A herd that is headed that way in a hurry.
#4 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!

Cheap shot? Hardly! I have an opinion on Gary Alt's plan and it differs from trophy hunters , it was hardly a cheap shot. Alt set forth his plan to entice the trophy hunters by way of a "healthy herd" or "trophy herd" which he knew all trophy hunters would bow at his knees. What you dont realize is he has a totally different agenda than you and the rest of the trophy hunters he enticed with his plan. You want big bucks , he wants to eliminate the majority of the deer herd period! Wait a few years , then we'll talk.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Thank you for knowing what I think better than I do, myself!
FYI, I have a pretty good idea what Alt has in mind, and I don`t have a problem with it at all. The majority of hunters in PA don`t have a problem with it at all. Our herd needs to be CUT IN HALF. When I was a young boy, our herd was half of its present size, and there were deer everywhere. Now there are two deer everywhere.
15 years ago, in the farm country of SW PA, you would never see a spike, seldom see a 1.5 year old buck with less than 6 points. Now it is just like in the mountains of PA, spikes everywhere, deer eating shrubs in every yard. Way too many deer.
And, while I personally prefer to hunt only big bucks, I am willing to do what is best for the health and future of our herd. Unlike the selfish ones who want to shoot whatever they want, whenever they want, "cause thats what my granpappy did!"

By the way....still no answer to #3!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RICHIE3

12-01-2002 06:14 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

#1.Antler restrictions in order to increase doe harvest! Already covered that!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why. 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#2.Who knows the exact reason why hunters in those areas weren't harvesting more does. Is it truely because the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance? NO WAY! It's a herd reduction tactic!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>This one is funny!!! How can you reduce the number of a given population, by taking more of one sex of deer than the other?? The reason? Because their is too many of one sex more than there is of the other. The reason? The shooting of too many small bucks and not letting them reach maturity, in turn , leaves the ratio way out of balance. If all they wanted to do is reduce the herd size, they would make it open season(more buck and doe tags) on all deer instead of just does.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#3."If too many bucks are not getting taken , according to me"? Where did I say that too many bucks weren't getting taken or were getting taken? I said that my area has a very good buck to doe ratio with a generous doe harvest every season.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> "Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"

"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."

"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."

"If your into small racks, good for you."<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>It is painfully obvious that you do not think that there are too many bucks being harvested, otherwise, you would not be in favor of shooting small, young bucks at all. By the way, about the one quote blaming TBM for the lack of seeing trophy bucks, if TBM were in place, you would see a dramatic increase in trophy bucks, due to the fact that the younger bucks would have a chance to reach full maturity. And also about that quote that was asked and never answered---Why not help your chances, improve your odds, of seeing that "rare mystical creature"? It does work, for me and for others at literally no cost to the pocketbook.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#4.Why dont the states just allow more doe tags per hunter? Well , I dont recall you asking me before. Wisconsin is very generous in doe tags and doe only seasons.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Yes, I know, I was just using this question to help others understand the my side of the argument. But, you can believe it is not for only "herd reduction".
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?-- An obvious answer would be a buck to doe ratio thats way out of wack.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Why is that? It is because of the surrounding areas harvesting too many young, small bucks. Leaving the remaining does in the immediate vicinity to seek refuge in the protected area. This is not so much my quote as it is my belief from hearing it. It was an exact account from a Missouri Department of Conservation officer, when asked how can a balance be so out of whack when there is no hunting on a given piece of protected property.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You said: "The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring." That I'd like to see![sarcasm]<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Yes, I can see where this can be easily misread. But the intent is still the same. The lack of bucks in an area will promote the remaining bucks to inbreed between a does and her female offspring, and so on, and so on, due to the fact that there is not enough competition between bucks for the right to breed.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#6,#7,#8 Once again , if your state has a herd balance thats way out of wack , like too many does -vs- bucks , then it is important to harvest does , but your preaching to everyone everywhere , right?

Answer me one question.

If an experienced hunter shoots two or three does before harvesting a young buck , is that o.k.? Afterall , he would be practicing QDM!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.

It is all very simple and very easy to do. And the best part is that it can be done for the cost of nothing to the individual. The problem lies in getting the old "if it's brown, it's down" mentality out of the way. I am working my butt of trying to get my father out of it, and he is understanding it more and more, each and every time we see a buck get bigger and bigger each season. Literally watching it grow, breed, and pass on its genetics to the next generation. Even he admits to seeing several more large bucks than we used to just 4 years ago, in the same area. And that is a huge step coming from someone who was just lucky to see a deer at all when he was my age, let alone a good trophy whitetail, proving the fact that the state is right on when it changed its mind about a "quality herd" instead of a herd with "quantity".

Bowfanatic,
Just E-mail me your mailing address, and I will be more than happy to send a "2002 Fall Deer and Turkey Hunting Information" booklet to you. They are free, and it has said the exact same things that I am saying here. And Missouri's herd is getting better and better in quality hunts for everyone. Which is what I want for everyone. But there is still a very long way to go.

This debate has been a great time!!!!

Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 07:22:12

nmaineron

12-01-2002 06:48 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Here in Maine the Dept. Of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife relies quite heavily on the income from license fees.We probably have between 28-32000 deer shot per season which lasts from October to the middle of December.This is a month for Bows and guns and a couple of weeks for ML.We probably have 200,000 license holders.

I am just guessing on these numbers but I would think that no more than 5% of the kill could be classified as tropy animals.Does and young bucks make up the rest.We have to apply for a doe permit(I didn't get lucky)and some people in certain areas get two permits.

If we turned our hunting season into a lottery for the does and a
trophy only for experienced hunters (5 yrs) where do you think our revenues would go? Where do you think our license fees would go?

80 hours on stand probably isn't much for some of you.I would bet that you let a lot walk by.I let none walk by for the second year in a row.

Your promotion is fine for States that can boast a deer population in the millions,it just doesn't fit where I live.In southern Maine densities are much higher and such a program may be beneficial.

Most people are not dedicated to hunting like I think most of us are. I fear that a trophy only approach would have a very negative effect on our revenues,our sport, and only fuel the anti hunting fire.In fact I would be willing to bet that if you made hunting so that it was out of reach for the average Joe,and I don't mean finacially,hunting would be lost.

CAJUNBOWHNTR

12-01-2002 07:32 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

The truth is what game managers and biologists view as a balanced and healthy deer herd and what hunters see as an ideal number of deer are different.Ten years ago we had way to many deer an a buck doe ratio of 10,15 to 1 in many areas.Our 1/1/2 old deer averaged 90-100 #'s.We rarely killed any mature bucks.2/3's of them were killed as spikes or forkhorns.This out of balance situation came from shooting too few does and too many juvenile bucks.Alot of guys got used to seeing 6-8 deer every hunt.What hunter does'nt like to see deer every hunt?But the truth is our herd was in bad shape.First they increased the doe harvest but even though numbers came down some the ratio was still out of whack.MS then introduced a 4 point rule.Now 2/3's of the mature bucks live past their first year.The ratio has come down.while it is near impossible to get a 1 to 1 ratio in the wild we probably are closer to 3 to 4 to 1.Our herd is healthy and more balanced in age structure.We no longer see late born fawns,our 1/1/2 old deer weights have increased to about 125#.In MS the ENTIRE season is either sex on private property.Many predicted it would ruin our herd,wipe out the population.It has'nt happened.We work closely with state bioligists in a DMAP program.They survey our habitat and make recomendations on antlerless harvest.More states are going this route.LA is experimenting with a 6 point rule,PA is making changes.GA has counties with antler restrictions.Now up north were winter mortality is higher and firearms seasons are short,more deer die of natural causes and the short firearms seasons ensure more bucks live longer.The approach used by MS and other states is not necessary.I think RICHIE3 is right in saying that many states will regulate buck harvest to try and achieve some balance in the deer population.QDM is about producing a balanced healthy deer herd.The benefits are obvious.I for one have enjoyed the change.One of the reasons I enjoy bowhunting is that you can't shoot every deer you see.When a rifle hunter sees a deer at 75 yards the game is over.Bowhunting has enabled me to watch deer more before I shoot.I have learned more about deer behaviour and had some great experiences just watching deer in their enviroment.It has made me a better hunter.Passing on young deer has done the same.I don't automaticaly shoot every deer I see.Several times I have been rewarded with nice bucks by not pulling the trigger so soon.I kill just as many deer as did in the past,mostly does.But in the last few years my sons and I have killed some nice mature bucks,some "TROPHYS",some just nice mature deer.I think having a freezer full of deer meat and the chance to shoot a mature buck is having your cake and eating it too.

Billy

WHACKEM N STACKEM

nmaineron

12-01-2002 08:54 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Cajun,you make some good points.Maine is trying to get its herd to a more marketable level.Our winters and forest management along with predation are our largest hurdles.Adult, mature all rutted out bucks, are the ones who die in a severe winter.They need more nourishment to keep warm not to mention the need to replenish their bodies after rutting.They are most vunerable to coyotes.

The management issue Maine faces now is the overabundance of deer in the urban areas.Next year we are going to have an unlimited amount of doe tags in certain areas,bow only.Towns are coming forward applying for permission to enter the program.

Northern Maine is a totally different story.It is basically a working forest with very little population.Very remote and very rugged country.Saving the wintering areas is a must for the herd to survive.Estimates are a couple of deer per square mile,which is misleading because you can get into areas that hold a few times that many.A buck can meander 10-20 miles in the rut.I don't think it is the norm,however 5 miles can be.

At this point QDM is far from the minds of the people who own and manage the land.Hunters are more of a nuisance with their demands for forest management and land access.To make matters worse a Canadian Company is buying Maine land up for the sole purpose of harvesting the forest,they have no gains from QDM.

Keeping our heritage is important here in Maine.Trophy hunting is a bad word.You don't hunt to hang antlers on the wall,you hunt to feed the family,ease the bills.Personally I think it is total disrespect of the animal to simply harvest him for the size of his rack and not put him on the dinner table.Talk to most of the old timers around and they would take a doe or a spike over a tough ole swamp buck every time.

I love taking big deer and like most would love to have the big guy walk by.I no guys who have hunted their whole lives and have never had the chance to kill a trophy.Waiting years for it to happen just ain't worth it for braggin rights.

BOWFANATIC

12-01-2002 09:14 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Sure seems like you were talking to me? And, FWIW, I may not retain 100% of every post, but I have read them all.

I apoligize. Yes I was talking to you. I was confused as to which comment you were refering to.

By the way....still no answer to #3!

Come again?? What was it you asked that wasn't already asked by Richie?


Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why.

Doesn't make sense?? Your losing me here! If you want to drastically reduce the herd you target the female species. You know , the ones that give birth to one , two , sometimes three fawns each year. Much like when I was younger the does were protected (lottery tag) to increase the herd size.


Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"

"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."

"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."

"If your into small racks, good for you."

Here you go again! Taking comments I made and twisting them around to look like the comment was meant towards everyone everywhere.

As for the hunter who shot the first legal buck?? I was refering to northern Wi (btw , you didn't answer that question) or places like northern Maine.

Plain ole vanilla brown it's down kinda guys? That was sarcasm aimed at wolfen68. But yes! There are alot of true hunters who understand the big picture.

The last two quotes! Heck ya! I stand by it! Now where was it I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot in particular?
I am not argueing at all that there are places that need drastic measures to decrease the herd or balance the herd.

 Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.

Ahhh , it's only a step in the right direction? So , if it's all about QDM and the health of the herd , what would hurt the health of the herd by shooting two or three does and then shooting a young buck? If the herd is out of wack then surly it doesn't matter how old of a buck you remove? Which is exactly what Bowdacious did! He shot three does and then a young buck. Whats your squabble? Is it QDM? The health of the herd? Or bigger antlers?

<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

CAJUNBOWHNTR

12-01-2002 09:57 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

True,different habitats and deer herds require different management methods.I find it interesting that the timberland in maine holds few deer.Must be old growth forrest.We hunt timber company land too.20 years ago when we first started hunting where our camp is it was open land(not leased).Deer numbers were extrememly low.Year round poaching kept deer densities low.Then the companys began leasing land to control who had acess to the property.That along with timber management practices(clearcutting) caused an explosion in our population.State game bioligists at that time wanted to increase the herd size so doe harvest was restricted.We have few natural predators and no winter kill to speak of.Our timber company(georgia pacific) has always been hunter friendly.They lease the property cheap as not to price locals and common folk out of the market.They maintain the roads after timber harvest for acess.The hunting cycles with the age of the timber.I would never advocate taking a deer soley for it's rack.Deer is our main staple of meat in my house.What we do down here obviously would'nt work in your situation.I have seen both ends of the spectrum.Very low deer density were you hunted for days just to see a deer.To a overpopulated herd with too many does and too few mature bucks.Now we still have good numbers but we also have some mature bucks running around.By shooting does and letting 1 1/2 bucks walk we have achieved a good balance between numbers and age classes.I dont consider myself a trophy hunter.We just choose to shoot mature 3 1/2 year old bucks.(and alot of does for meat)We do allow our kids to shoot any buck for their first deer.My oldest sons first deer was a button buck.(shot for a doe)In the last five years he has killed a 8pt(14 inch spread),7pt(18 3/4 inch),10 pt(16 inch),8pt (15 inch) and a bunch of does.Needless to say he is sold on QDM.

Billy

WHACKEM N STACKEM

nmaineron

12-01-2002 12:48 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Cajun ,thanks for a sensible response.Yea, we say the same thing.How can you have this much woods and no deer?I think there are plenty of reasons and I also think that the size of the tract of land we are talking and its ruggedness and remote locations lead to misleading numbers.I feel that there are deer to be had back in them bushes but maybe 1% is willing to get back there.We have these places like the 1000 acre bogs which are loaded with deer but to get to them would take a parachute jump.Last week I got stir crazy from sitting and seeing nothing so I decided to find where they were.I found the kings bed room after wading through the brook and crawling through the blow downs and thickets which would be impossible to do and be quiet.If he stays in there he will grow old with no problem.

Back to QDM.Living here in Maine is making a believer out of me that the deer is basically a fringe animal.Southern Maine has proven it to me.There are very few large tracts of land without some kind of agriculture being close by.The deer population down there is exploding,maybe our northern deer have seen the light and are migrating south.You also have to know that our moose population is very healthy and generally take the same browse that the deer do making winters just that much harder for the deer.

Yarding is something that doesn't get much print but it puts the deer at a terrible disadvantage when the snow is too deep for them to travel.They are basically in the hen house with the door unlocked for the coyotes to do what they please.They do an awful number on the deer.We are going through a big todo as we write about snaring the coyotes to protect the deer.You wouldn't believe the opposition and they speak with a real loud voice.

Even when predation is down, a heavy snow winter raises havoc.Like a couple of years ago we had heavy late snows that kept them in yard longer than the food supply lasted and they simply starved to death.There are many reasons for our low herd numbers and I think it is a very tough job for our wildlife people to make good sound decisions when you have so many unpredictable factors that can make or break your final outcome.

These are just my thoughts from things I read and experience.I am no expert but I truely love to hunt for deer.Someday I will buy me a pass to go hunt someplace where I can say that I can pass on an eight pointer and be quite certain that I will see another.Ron

RICHIE3

12-01-2002 12:56 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

NMAINERON,
Please keep in mind that the original arguement or debate is about experienced hunters taking small, young buucks or not.(refering to your now 3rd to last post)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
By the way....still no answer to #3!

Come again?? What was it you asked that wasn't already asked by Richie?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I think he is waiting for you to answer the question both of us asked, but was never answered.

Oh, I forgot. You harvest small bucks because you choose to. I think I am getting it now. You are going to take care of you and yours first, right? Who cares what the consequenses are for future generations. I get your way of thinking now, so I will stop asking that question........good answer.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why.

Doesn't make sense?? Your losing me here! If you want to drastically reduce the herd you target the female species. You know , the ones that give birth to one , two , sometimes three fawns each year. Much like when I was younger the does were protected (lottery tag) to increase the herd size.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I see now. The does in your herd must be some sort of "Virgin Mary" does. Wow!! That is a miracle in itself!! I didn't know that a female deer could reproduce with out the male of the species being around??

I am truly sorry for bringing in the Blessed Mother into this debate, but this goes to show how obsurd your statement is. If there is a herd explosion that needs to be eradicated or reduced, ALL sexes of said herd would be targeted.

Take for example the the CWD outbreak in Wisconsin I think it was. They were targeting getting rid of the disease and trying to stop the spread of it. Now, how did they try to do it?? Did they try to do it by killing off the does so they could not have babies with CWD???? Absolutely not!!! They targeted all deer in sight to try to reduce the spread and possible reprodcution of infected animals. This is the same reason your "doe harvest for herd reduction" theory does not make sense.

If I send you my address, will you mail me the regualtions book or guide that states these facts of herd reduction?? Missouri has one that I mentioned earlier, that comes right out and says the reasons why we have and need a significant doe harvest program, and in not one paragraph does it state in the name of "herd reduction" or anything close to that. QDM can be put into place in areas with a lcak of herd numbers, and still work.

Remember, QDM is not just about big rack bucks. It is about achieving and maintaining a healthy herd. In cases of small herd numbers, QDM may very well mean the complete elimination of hunting all together for a few years, so that the numbers build and can be more easily managed for a healthy herd. This is something I hope will never happen, and I am doing my part in preventing it from happening.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"

"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."

"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."

"If your into small racks, good for you."

Here you go again! Taking comments I made and twisting them around to look like the comment was meant towards everyone everywhere.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I don't see how I can be "twisting words around" when they are the every words YOU stated in earlier posts!! Did you state these facts about yourself just to deny that you don't believe what you yourself have said??? Like I said earlier, it is painfully obvious that you belive differently than I do, otherwise we would not still be debating about this subject. You believe it is o.k. for anyone, no matter what the level of experience, to harvest small, young bucks. I believe that the harvest of these young bucks should be left to only inexperienced and younger hunters.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As for the hunter who shot the first legal buck?? I was refering to northern Wi (btw , you didn't answer that question) or places like northern Maine.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I think you made a mistake, or it is possible you did not read my entire post. I did answer this question already. And I will pinpoint it for you.

Go back to to my post where I numbered questions #1 thru #8. It is the first response in black text after those questions. I would definately question it if it were an experienced hunter taking the small, young buck. The only possible exceptions now that I think about it, would be if an experienced hunter is in dire need to feed his/her family, like the one I need to hunt for, putting a young animal out of its misery due to sickness, unrecoverable injury, or immediate danger to his/her life or family members life, ect. Other than that, there is no reason what so ever, for an experienced hunter to tag a young buck.

If this is not the question you wanted answered, please number and post it again byitself, and i would be happy to give an answer.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Plain ole vanilla brown it's down kinda guys? That was sarcasm aimed at wolfen68. But yes! There are alot of true hunters who understand the big picture.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Well...If this is your idea of a "true hunter", than I guess I am not a true hunter at all. I am sorry for not being a true hunter due to the fact that I am looking out for future generations of hunters everywhere, by doing my part in any way I can, to help insure a quality herd for them to persue. I guess I am missing the "big picture" all together.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The last two quotes! Heck ya! I stand by it! Now where was it I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot in particular?
I am not argueing at all that there are places that need drastic measures to decrease the herd or balance the herd.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I am sure you do. Now, did you say exactly "I said that there weren't too many young bucks being shot"??? No, you did not.....But you made it quite clear to everyone, that it is O.K. for all experienced hunters to harvest small, young bucks. This is what you are implying in one way or another. You know it and I know it, so don't try to back up the truck now.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.

Ahhh , it's only a step in the right direction? So , if it's all about QDM and the health of the herd , what would hurt the health of the herd by shooting two or three does and then shooting a young buck? If the herd is out of wack then surly it doesn't matter how old of a buck you remove? Which is exactly what Bowdacious did! He shot three does and then a young buck. Whats your squabble? Is it QDM? The health of the herd? Or bigger antlers?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>You have never been so wrong in your life. QDM and the health of the herd are one in the same. Big antlers are icing on the cake, which in turn, turns some who believe in it(QDM), into trophy hunters, so that the younger bucks can move forward in developement.

Answer me this...How can a young buck have the chance to breed and pass on quality genetics to its offspring, whether they are bucks or does, if it doesnt matter what time in their life they are taken????

This is not a good scenario to put up because your theory doesn't make sense. IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES MATTER when a buck is harvested!! A buck cannot pass on quality genetics to its male or female offspring, if it is never allowed the chance to mature to breeding age!!!! I am disappointed in your response on this one.

Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 13:59:40

Ohio Bowhunter75

12-01-2002 01:42 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I must agree with you.I'm burned out on the trophy hunting for now.I'm hunting for myself now.I've started to lose some of the fun that I had years ago.I just don't care anymore.I'm still letting the little guys walk,but a big doe will fill that tag just the same.

CAJUNBOWHNTR

12-01-2002 02:13 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

nmaineron,I remember reading about some guys I think they were the Benoit brothers or something similar.They used to kill some really big deer,300#.They would still hunt and shoot remington 760 pumps.I 've seen some PBS programs on Northern deer and winter yards.I can imagine it really gets hard to find food late in winter and coyotes could wreak havoc on weakend deer bunched together.We just don't have hard winters down south.In fact if we don't get some early frosts to kill down the browse in the thickets,we don't see nearly as many deer.We do have some coyotes but they are small and really only a threat to fawns and young deer.I have seen or heard of areas were the coyotes severely hurt the fawn survival rates.We just rarely see them,they are spooky.I agree about whitetails and edges or fringes.One reason we have so many deer is the edges created by timber harvest.My favorite spots to hunt are were hardwood btms meet pine thickets.One problem we are begining to see is an explosion in feral hogs.You see the sign everywere and they will wreak havoc on the woods and food plots.But they are spookier than deer,almost completely nocturnal.We will probably have to start trapping some,hunting alone cannot reduce the numbers and we don't have enough habitat to support hogs and deer.Now moose,I bet thats a tough critter to get out of the woods.I hear the meat is real tasty.

Billy

WHACKEM N STACKEM

JRW	12-01-2002 03:48 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

"Oh, I forgot. You harvest small bucks because you choose to. I think I am getting it now. You are going to take care of you and yours first, right? Who cares what the consequenses are for future generations. I get your way of thinking now, so I will stop asking that question........good answer.

LOL!!! It's funny though. Folks have been hunting deer for generations upon generations before all this Trophy Buck Management slop became the Holy Grail. And now we're all supposed to play Chicken Little and wait for the sky to fall if we shoot a basket rack buck? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Like I said before...pull the other one.

I have a hard time listening to a "for the children" speach from folks (no one in particular) who pull out their checkbooks, pay landowners to kick other hunters off property (i.e. land leases), and then belittle still more hunters for shooting a 1 1/2 year old 8-pointer, because they wanted it to live another 2 years so they could have it mounted on their wall. The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy.

JRW

davidmil

12-01-2002 04:55 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

AMEN!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

WE NOW HAVE:
More deer than ever
Fewer Hunters than ever
Decreasing huntable land
We can't kill enough(so they come up with gererous bag limits)

BUT: If you shoot that 6 point instead of a 12 point your hunting will end. Make it a law and so be it. Make it a "Trophy Hunters" demand..... I'm not buying.

Edited by - davidmil on 12/01/2002 18:00:29

RICHIE3

12-01-2002 05:23 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
"Oh, I forgot. You harvest small bucks because you choose to. I think I am getting it now. You are going to take care of you and yours first, right? Who cares what the consequenses are for future generations. I get your way of thinking now, so I will stop asking that question........good answer.

LOL!!! It's funny though. Folks have been hunting deer for generations upon generations before all this Trophy Buck Management slop became the Holy Grail. And now we're all supposed to play Chicken Little and wait for the sky to fall if we shoot a basket rack buck? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Well.....I am glad you feel that way...You just keep on a chucklin'!! Generation after generation???? I totally agree with you there!!!! That is why alot of states are in the shape they are in now. Including the state of Missouri, where QDM is now an option, but it wouldn't suprise me a bit if it doesn't become the norm by the way of law in the future.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Like I said before...pull the other one.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yes, that is a good one.......By the way, why don't you grow a set and jump in a little more often?? It is real nice of ya just to chime in every once in a great while for a smart aleck comment...Get some debatable material and jump on in!! Pose up some scenarios to try to catch me crosstalking??? You know better, don't you??

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have a hard time listening to a "for the children" speach from folks (no one in particular) who pull out their checkbooks, pay landowners to kick other hunters off property (i.e. land leases), and then belittle still more hunters for shooting a 1 1/2 year old 8-pointer, because they wanted it to live another 2 years so they could have it mounted on their wall. The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Once again, you are mistaken. I can tell that question is directed at me, but the truth of the matter is, I pay NOBODY to hunt their property. I just get off of my a$$ and help the guys out when they need help, and supply them with meat for the dinner table. I have no control of who they let or do not let hunt on the property they own. They could very well shut it down to me tomorrow, and there is not a thing I could do about it. But, that is the chance I am willing to take. Instead of complaining about it, you should get up and try it sometime.

Also, like I said earlier, you can believe me or not when I say I am doing my part to help out the future of hunting. I am, and you should. If you want to call me a trophy hunter, go ahead. But remember this, I cannot control the deer and where they decide to wander. All I can do is make it more appealing for them, and then to do my part in balancing out the herd. It's guys like you who make us (QDM'ers)sick when you decide to roll every spike, forkhorn, basket, and button buck you see, but then in that one instance where one of the big boys walks infront of you and you take him down, you act like you are all that to all of your buddies. Where is the hypocrisy now!!!But thats o.k., that is another chance I am willing to take. I know I have to take the good with the bad.

So, you just keep on rollin' the small bucks, it is your choice, they are legal...................................for now.

And to Davidmil,

Can't kill enough so they come up with more generous bag limits???

Why aren't they raising the bag limits on bucks then??? They are not because there is a lack of bucks, that is why they are having you shoot does. And the overpopulation arguement doesn't work due to the fact that the existing bucks have no competition from other bucks to breed with does.

Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 18:31:26

Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 18:33:11

BOWFANATIC

12-01-2002 05:33 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Richie , Richie , Richie

Your attempt at making me look like the foolish one is back firing!
How long have you been around??
When I started deerhunting we had what we called a party permit. A group of hunters could apply for a single doe tag and if lucky enough to recieve one , one hunter wore the doe tag on his arm and that group of hunters could shoot one doe. After that , they changed to a antlerless permit for individual hunters that was obtained thru lottery. You see , all this protection of the female species was to increase the entire deer herd. Wisconsin isn't the only state that went thru this. So , wouldn't you say it would be the same logic applied to decreasing the deer herd (shooting the female species)??? BTW , theres a huge difference between herd management and eradication. Try again!

You full blown trophy hunters are all alike!<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> You base your arguements on QDM and the health of the herd , buts it's all about the big racks and nothing else! Your statements have already proven your hypocracy in this arguement.

Maintaining a even buck to doe ratio is what QDM is all about , so dont go preaching QDM and in the other cheek spout off about how you'll question any experienced hunter for shooting a young buck , even after doing his part at maintaining an even buck to doe ratio!

Go back to to my post where I numbered questions #1 thru #8. It is the first response in black text after those questions. I would definately question it if it were an experienced hunter taking the small, young buck. The only possible exceptions now that I think about it, would be if an experienced hunter is in dire need to feed his/her family, like the one I need to hunt for, putting a young animal out of its misery due to sickness, unrecoverable injury, or immediate danger to his/her life or family members life, ect. Other than that, there is no reason what so ever, for an experienced hunter to tag a young buck.

That has got to be the most pathetic paragraph I've read in this whole debate!
As for the experienced hunter who spends alot of time and money on hunting and hunts in a remote area where a deer sighting is rare , your still gonna question his choice on shooting a small buck?? Oh , unless he needs the meat.

If I send you my address, will you mail me the regualtions book or guide that states these facts of herd reduction?? Missouri has one that I mentioned earlier, that comes right out and says the reasons why we have and need a significant doe harvest program, and in not one paragraph does it state in the name of "herd reduction" or anything close to that. QDM can be put into place in areas with a lcak of herd numbers, and still work.

I find it hard to believe that in Missouri your DNR hasn't stated somewhere , somehow , that they need to reduce the herd size. There are enough Wi folks around here who can vouge for the fact that the WIDNR is open about the T-Zone hunts (doe only) and the need to reduce our deer herd. It's common sense for Christs sake , do you have to see it in the hunting regs before you believe it?

For those areas that have too many does ;
I'm still waiting for a logical explanation to why it would be wrong for an experienced hunter to harvest a young buck as long as he harvested a couple does to do his part for the deer herd.

Big Country

12-01-2002 05:41 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

davidmill, nobody has ever heard me belittle someone for shooting a small buck. I truly will never understand why an experienced hunter with several bowkill bucks would want to continue to harvest small bucks, BUT, I understand that it is currently legal in most places to do so. If you are happy with your harvest, then I am happy for you, even though I cannot understand your logic. I`ll even help you drag it out, and take some photos for you!

JRW....Thank You with a capitol T! I knew this was your problem all along, I just wanted to hear you say it!
You want to talk about hypocrisy? Who am I to tell you what size buck to shoot?
Who are you to tell the man that pays the taxes on his property that he should allow you to hunt it for free, when he can make a few bucks on the deal? Maybe he should just let you farm his fields for free, too!
Not that it is any of your business, but I for one probably don`t make any more than you do. I forgo many things I would like in this life so that I may be able to hunt my leased land in the midwest. I do this because it is the most important thing to me.(besides providing for my family) I hunt in your home state, in the most crowded county of them all, and there is still many farms unhunted.
You should have just started a new thread about people leasing up YOUR LAND!
The only advise I can give someone with your mindset is this....
Kleenex...aisle 3!<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

CAJUNBOWHNTR

12-01-2002 07:31 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

The reason you let that 1 1/2 old buck walk is because it's good for the deer herd.Shoot a doe instead.I have hunted in an area where every hunter shot every buck they saw.2/3's of the 1 1/2 old bucks were killed every year.We wound up with 10 does for every buck,late born fawns,no rutting activity.Now every management situation is different.MS has a 4 month hunting season.2 months of gun season.Too many bucks and not enough does were being killed.So they increased the doe harvest and protected the 1 1/2 old bucks.We know have a more balanced age class of bucks.We see almost as many bucks as does.We actually have a rut!In states with short gun seasons that don't coincide with the rut.More bucks live to reach maturity.Illinois comes to mind.No I don't want you to pass that basket rack deer so I can put him on MY wall.You just want to kill him because you're afraid that if you don't someone else will.I want you to let him walk so maybe me or you can kill him 3 years from now.I would rather shoot 5 does and one nice buck a year and see many more young bucks than to go back to only seeing juvenile spikes and forkhorns.Maybe this is'nt an issue were you hunt.But I've seen it happen and I don't want to go back.

Billy

WHACKEM N STACKEM

RICHIE3

12-01-2002 08:57 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Richie , Richie , Richie

Your attempt at making me look like the foolish one is back firing!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>No sir, you are doing just fine on your own.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>How long have you been around??<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I guess I have been around long enough to know when some one is full of it, and get away. Nice meeting ya.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>When I started deerhunting we had what we called a party permit. A group of hunters could apply for a single doe tag and if lucky enough to recieve one , one hunter wore the doe tag on his arm and that group of hunters could shoot one doe. After that , they changed to a antlerless permit for individual hunters that was obtained thru lottery. You see , all this protection of the female species was to increase the entire deer herd. Wisconsin isn't the only state that went thru this. So , wouldn't you say it would be the same logic applied to decreasing the deer herd (shooting the female species)???<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> This is the problem with you. It has been proven over and over that the "old" way of thinking was incorrect, so how could the opposite be right in reversing the original if the original wasn't correct to begin with??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>BTW , theres a huge difference between herd management and eradication. Try again!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> No....There is no difference. It is still a reduction in numbers we are talking about, whether it is diseased or not. If you want to reduce the total herd numbers, you kill them all. If you want to balance out the herd and make it more healthy, you cull out alot of does.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You full blown trophy hunters are all alike!<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> You base your arguements on QDM and the health of the herd , buts it's all about the big racks and nothing else! Your statements have already proven your hypocracy in this arguement.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Yes.....I could not get a more expert opinion on hypocrisy than the one from you. And you still have not answered the question.

Why is it necessary for an experienced hunter to harvest young, small bucks, that haven't reached maturity??

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maintaining a even buck to doe ratio is what QDM is all about , so dont go preaching QDM and in the other cheek spout off about how you'll question any experienced hunter for shooting a young buck , even after doing his part at maintaining an even buck to doe ratio!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Wow...I have been stating this about QDM from the start, and now all of the sudden, your are telling me what it is all about. Gee Thanks!!

ooops! what was that?? oh...it is the buzzer going off.......time for you to turn over again....

And yes!!! Once again, I will question a experienced hunter for taking a small buck, even if he/she has taken a couple of does already!! This is NOT the correct way to practice QDM. But, if you choose to do this, it is a step in the right direction. I would be semi-proud of you!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That has got to be the most pathetic paragraph I've read in this whole debate!
As for the experienced hunter who spends alot of time and money on hunting and hunts in a remote area where a deer sighting is rare , your still gonna question his choice on shooting a small buck?? Oh , unless he needs the meat.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> You damn right I would for the sake of this arguement.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I find it hard to believe that in Missouri your DNR hasn't stated somewhere , somehow , that they need to reduce the herd size. There are enough Wi folks around here who can vouge for the fact that the WIDNR is open about the T-Zone hunts (doe only) and the need to reduce our deer herd. It's common sense for Christs sake , do you have to see it in the hunting regs before you believe it?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Well...Step up to the plate and lets do it.

Let's also do this.....

Say you are right,(which I still do not agree with) and the reason is for reducing herd size.

States are allowing the harvest of many does. We, for the sake of arguement, agree on this.

How did it get this unbalance get this way to begin with?? If does were protected years ago from being taken out of the herd, what was it then that was taken??? Bucks is your answer whether you believe it or not. Then the herd exploded from the lack of competition between bucks for the right to breed the does.

So, if we need to harvest many does, this must mean that the bucks are in dire need of assistance to even out the herd. This is done with the letting of small, young bucks pass and the harvest of more does.

There is absolutely no way you can argue that fact...period.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For those areas that have too many does ;
I'm still waiting for a logical explanation to why it would be wrong for an experienced hunter to harvest a young buck as long as he harvested a couple does to do his part for the deer herd.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I just gave you the answer again, up above.

BOWFANATIC

12-02-2002 01:18 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
This is the problem with you. It has been proven over and over that the "old" way of thinking was incorrect, so how could the opposite be right in reversing the original if the original wasn't correct to begin with??

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>BTW , theres a huge difference between herd management and eradication. Try again!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> No....There is no difference. It is still a reduction in numbers we are talking about, whether it is diseased or not. If you want to reduce the total herd numbers, you kill them all. If you want to balance out the herd and make it more healthy, you cull out alot of does.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I find it hard to believe that in Missouri your DNR hasn't stated somewhere , somehow , that they need to reduce the herd size. There are enough Wi folks around here who can vouge for the fact that the WIDNR is open about the T-Zone hunts (doe only) and the need to reduce our deer herd. It's common sense for Christs sake , do you have to see it in the hunting regs before you believe it?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Well...Step up to the plate and lets do it.

Let's also do this.....

Say you are right,(which I still do not agree with) and the reason is for reducing herd size.

So, if we need to harvest many does, this must mean that the bucks are in dire need of assistance to even out the herd. This is done with the letting of small, young bucks pass and the harvest of more does.

There is absolutely no way you can argue that fact...period.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Heres an article from the WiDNR website for you.

With the state herd continuing to hover around 1.6 million animals, hunters can expect extra hunting opportunities again in 2002. The high deer population kicked off another year of special herd control seasons, with 41 (four units have been removed from the Zone T framework and are now governed by CWD regulations) Deer Management Units (DMU's) requiring Zone T status. Zone T are special antlerless only hunts held is DMU’s where it is projected that the traditional deer season framework would not reduce the deer population to within 20% of that unit’s over wintering population goal. Some of this year's Zone T DMU's will have been in that category for their second or third year. To minimize conflicts with winter recreation in the northern part of the state, Zone T DMU’s north of Hwy. 8 will not participate in the December Zone T season. Hunters should check the 2002 DMU Map to see which units are designated for Zone T in 2002. In addition to Zone T, many DMU’s will have bonus antlerless permits available for hunters who wish to harvest additional antlerless deer.

Kinda covers what I said all along in the first couple sentences , doesn't it? All the extra doe harvest opportunities are aimed at reducing the herd! If you wish to argue the difference between herd reduction and herd eradication , send Nub an email , he'll be happy to fill you in on the difference , he's from the eradication zone.

Whats with the buzzer and rolling over comment?? Still trying to make me look stupid?<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> It's getting old!<img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>

Richie , "the old way of thinking" (very limited doe harvests) was designed to increase the deer herd...period! Do you argue this fact? The only oooops they made was allowing the limited doe harvest to go on for too long until they realized that now their faced with too big of a deer herd. Any Wisconsin hunter who hunted in the 60's , 70's or before can verify this.
As far as areas that are faced with a buck to doe ratio that is out of whack , I would encourage hunters to shoot as many doe as posible , but I sure wouldn't bat an eye at them for shooting young bucks as well. Most of this nation is faced with over population of whitetail deer.
Back to the QDM. If a hunter does his part at bringing the buck to doe ratio closer by culling does , shooting a young buck does absolutely nothing to damage the health of the herd...period! You cant argue that fact! Your arguement there is based on your trophy mentality!

Edited by - bowfanatic on 12/02/2002 02:25:11

Tazman

12-02-2002 07:31 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

This post is directed to all who either beleive that you should only take mature bucks if you are an experienced hunter or have a fear of antler restrions being put in place due to the taking of small bucks.

Every state is different, that is why there are different restrictions in different states. One size fits all in deer herd management does not work, each state and even different areas of certain states have different restrictions.

I will only talk of the deer herds in the 2 states I am familiar with, in reality all of you should only express your opinions on the states you are familiar with the long term history of both the deer herd and the restrictions that were in place and the impacts of the restrictions on the herds.

I am familiar with both West Virginia and Virginia so I will limit my comments to the states I have personal knowledge of.

Virginia 35 years ago, the majority of counties were 1 buck a year counties, the county I hunted in allowed 2 bucks and 1 doe, there were several counties that had a closed season on deer.

West Virginia 35 years ago practiced the sacred doe philosiphy, it was bucks only, limits on bucks I am unsure of.

Virginia 25 years ago, most counties did have a deer season, many of those counties that had been closed were now 1 buck per season, most of the ones that were 1 buck per season became 2 buck counties, still no doe season, the county I normally hunted became 3 bucks and 2 doe.

West Virginia 25 years ago still practiced the sacred doe philosiphy, it was bucks only, limits on bucks I am unsure of.

Virginia 15 years ago, all counties had a deer season except two, most counties allowed 2 bucks, some three, all of the 2 buck counties allowed 1 doe, some 2, 3 buck counties were allowing 2 does.

West Virginia 15 years ago finally started to realize the sacred doe philosophy was a mistake and started allowing the harvest of doe. I had a friend who hunted West Virginia and said before they started to allow the taking of doe the average number of doe he would see in a single day was 40-50, one day he counted 108 doe and never saw a buck.

Virginia today, all counties had a deer season except two, almost every county allows 2-3 bucks and depending on the season, bow black powder or gun, 2 doe a day, every day during bow and black powder, and 2 doe a day during gun for 14 days of the gun season. There are incredible numbers of deer in Va. now. There are a ton of nice bucks even though there are a ton of buttons, 4&6 pointers and basket 8's taken every year. I started to figure out how many deer deer one hunter could legally take in Va. if they hunted every day every season, they could kill 3 bucks and over 100 doe in my county! Even with these limits and the number of bucks taken per year there are still a lot of bucks that are true wall hangers taken off of public land and even bigger ones on private land.

West Virginia today I can not comment on because I do not know personally what the herd is like today or thier restrictions.

Should we apply the regulations used in Va. to all states because we have a huge deer herd with a lot of nice bucks?

Of course not, that would be ridiculous, that makes as much sense as saying that all bows should have a draw length of 30" because a lot of bow hunters have a 30" draw length.

QDM is a personal choice, if you choose to use these practices on your property or lease that is great, but to make statements that all states/areas should practice it is ludicrous. There are states with antler restrictions and there is a reason behind those restrictions which usually is to balance the ratio of buck to doe.

If you live in a state where the buck to doe ratio is way out of whack I whole heartedly support you pushing for some form of regulation to put it in balance.

My main point over all is that no one should deride a fellow hunter for what they chose to harvest in thier state as long as it is legal.

Just remember "One sizes does not fit all!" especially in deer herd management.

Oh yea and who ever wants to take this bet I will cover, I will bet what ever amount of money any one wishes that Virginia will never put into place antler restrictions in the next 50 years!

BTW for those of you who say it is BS about deer damaging crops, you need to come to Virginai and check it out, there are farmers here that suffer huge losses of crop to deer even with 50-70 deer killed on their farm every year. Do not speak of areas you are unfamiliar with, you truly demonstrate an ignorance of what you are saying, what may be true in your area is not true every where.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

JRW	12-02-2002 07:36 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Richie,

"By the way, why don't you grow a set and jump in a little more often??"

I would ask that you keep your mind off my anatomy. You're not my type. Thank you.

JRW

JRW	12-02-2002 07:43 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Big Country,

"JRW....Thank You with a capitol T! I knew this was your problem all along, I just wanted to hear you say it! You want to talk about hypocrisy? Who am I to tell you what size buck to shoot? Who are you to tell the man that pays the taxes on his property that he should allow you to hunt it for free, when he can make a few bucks on the deal?"

You'd have a point...IF I ever said anything bad about landowners who lease out to hunters...which I didn't...did I? Please try reading what I wrote...not what you wished I had wrote. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

By the way...did I say anywhere that people shouldn't lease hunting land? NO.

Thanks for playing. Better luck next time. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

JRW

SW Iowa Hunter

12-02-2002 09:23 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Wow!!! You guys have been busy while I was away on Turkey day vacation.

Took me half an hour to read all the posts that have been made since I was last logged on.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

I feel like I left Bowfanatic to hold down the fort!!! He had some help though and is doing a very good job.

One thing I havn't seen talked about in this whole (herd reduction, herd improving) part of this debate is the role the non-hunting public is having in the amount of deer tags being handed out.

Oh yes they are playing a big part in this as well, you see the hit deer with thier cars and this makes them very angry!!!<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> Then insurance companies pay for the cars <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> they then raise the price of insurance on all people.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> These people complain to thier senators or anyone who will listen and these people talk to the DNR about what can be done about it.

DNR people say we need to reduce the herd, but if we do this then we will not have as many deer to hunt then we lose money from all those deer tags<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>, How can we keep people hunting deer and yet keep people from having deer wreck thier cars?

If we have less deer, but more big bucks, then everyone would be happy right!!!

This is just a little senario about why a state would be interested in balancing out the deer herd.

In my grandpa's time they could hunt all day and not see a deer in SW Iowa, now you can't step out your back door without seeing one. People have been shooting deer anyway they want for a long time and this has not caused a deer crisis as of yet.

Can you truely say that there are less trophy deer now than 20 years ago in your area?

In Iowa I garantee there are more big deer now than then. Nature balances out the herd!!! Shoot more bucks, and does have more buck fawns, shoot more does, and does have more doe fawns!!!

I love the argument about shooting so called scrub bucks<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>, How do you know he wasn't just having a bad year? Maybe he was a late bloomer? Sounds like just an excuse you use when you want to shoot something that doesn't fit into your criteria. I have hunted the same area for 15 years now and with the exception of one or two bucks (which I can not be sure of) I have not been able to follow one buck for enough years to make the scrub buck determination.

I'm back so feel free to take your shots now!!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

" Anyone can be a father, but it takes a real man to be a Dad"

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