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wolfen68

11-27-2002 08:04 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

RICHIE3...great post!<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Tx...good to see we see eye to eye on this one and good luck to you!

Edited by - wolfen68 on 11/27/2002 09:14:55

JRW	11-27-2002 08:15 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Wolfen, You brought up a good point, that I'd like to address. I suppose I can only speak from my personal point of view and experience.

Yes, I am a "meat hunter". I never was, am not now, and have no intentions to be, a trophy hunter. That not withstanding, I'd be lieing if I didn't say that, since I first started bowhunting, I always had in the back of my mind the hopes that I'd shoot a big buck.

This year, I shot a buck that I'm very happy with. I'll admit it, I was tickled to death to have taken that deer. I'm very proud of it, and it's going on the wall. After the 60 day drying period, he'll be scored and entered in P&Y.

Even so, it hasn't changed the way I hunt, or what I hunt for. I still hunt first for the enjoyment, and second for meat in the freezer. Antlers are nice, and yes, I like them...but they're just not at the top of my priority list.

I understand what you're saying, that it seems as though everyone wants to shoot a big buck, but few will commit to it. I guess I'm one of those people. It's just the fact that I place a higher priority on other aspects of the hunt than antlers. That's not to say that my way is the best way...far from it. It's just to say that we're different.

For example... I know a guy from IL who is, from what I've been able to gather, a very dedicated trophy hunter. He's said that one of his goals in bowhunting is to take a Boone & Crocket buck (170 typical minimum). However, he'll gladly take the first 130-class down the trail (which is a heck of a deer IMO). I suppose the same argument could be made that, while he wants to take a B&C, he's not willing to make the sacrifices to do it (i.e. passing up below B&C bucks).

I know, it may sound silly to make an argument like that...passing up P&Y deer because they're not 170-class...but the same argument gets made often about guys who dream of killing a P&Y deer, but shoot the first basket-rack down the trail. It's no different really, just the measurements have changed.

JRW

Edited by - jrw on 11/27/2002 09:37:04

BOWFANATIC

11-27-2002 08:49 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I have stated i have no problems with "meat hunters", what ever floats your canoe...however it seems many "meat hunters" have a real problem with "trophy hunters". 

I dont have any problems with trophy hunters. I dont think most "plain ole vanilla brown its down" hunters have a problem with trophy hunters either. I think I can speak for the majority when I say ; we do have a problem when we're constantly questioned on our choices or belittled by mightier than thou trophy hunters who feel that their way is the only way! I know quite a few trophy hunters who feel happy for other hunters who shoot young bucks regardless of their reason for shooting. They dont expect everyone else to make it easier for them.


there aren't monster bucks walking by your treestand every 5 minutes 20 yards broadside begging you to shoot them...what a horrible and ignorant misconception. Old bucks=smart bucks...young bucks=dumb bucks. Have a nice evening.

You took my statement a little too serious! But if "everyone , everywhere" were forced into TBM , you dont think the odds of seeing P&Y bucks would increase dramatically? Especially in five years or so?

Each year you wish or want for that buck that is larger than the last.
If you don't or don't care, give me a real, legitimate argument for not letting that small buck pass and taking only does.
Yes, it is true, we are all hunters. Part time hunters at best. So, if you do not care about the antlers, why not help out and look out for the neighbor who may want to take only bigger bucks? Why not improve relations with everyone around you?? We are all in this thing together, aren't we??

I'll try and answer some of your questions , but remember in reality no other hunter has to answer to anyone why he chose to harvest any legal animal.
First , how about areas where neighbors dont give a rats behind about what deer get harvested. My area for example.(farm country) The farmers in my area shoot anything and everything to try and reduce crop damage. I've seen three farmers harvest trophy bucks in the last two years and all of them cut off the rack and hung them in the barn(they could care less about Pope & Who?).
How about remote areas where if you see a deer , your lucky? (Northern Wi) There are alot of hunters who spend alot of time in our northern forests who have gone meatless for years. Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by?
We also have areas that have had some pretty drastic doe harvest plans the last ten years which have made doe hunting almost as hard as hunting mature bucks. There are alot of areas with alot of hunters who disagree with our DNR about the buck to doe population and yet they still have two extra doe seasons every year. I'm sure there are alot of other reasons hunters could give for harvesting any buck. We're all in this for different reasons , everyone needs to remember that.

RICHIE3

11-27-2002 11:40 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> First , how about areas where neighbors dont give a rats behind about what deer get harvested. My area for example.(farm country) The farmers in my area shoot anything and everything to try and reduce crop damage. I've seen three farmers harvest trophy bucks in the last two years and all of them cut off the rack and hung them in the barn(they could care less about Pope & Who?). <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
So, in response you are saying that being the neighbors don't give a darn, then, neither should you? I thought it was said earlier that it was an idividuals choice. Sounds to me that you are rolling with the crowd. But then, you did take a book class buck, now didn't you? Now don't you hope you get a smaller one next year?? I doubt it again.

As for the so called "crop damage" that the farmers always talk about.
I lived on a farm for most of my life, and know 90% of the farmers in the county. True, I have heard them talk of an outside row or two that has been eaten by all sorts of wildlife(racoons, possums, skunks, squirrels, birds, ect.). But not one of them has ever, in a serious voice, told me that the deer are so numberous that they couldn't possibly make any money on their crops, due to the crop damage. Many say it in jest, so they are able to take some table fair when needed, and call it in the name of "crop damage". Then, you say that you know of three trophy bucks that were taken by farmers. But yet, they do not care about the racks. How many does do they shoot each year in the name of "crop damage"? I would be willing to bet that those racks stay on display in the barn for many years to come.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>How about remote areas where if you see a deer , your lucky? (Northern Wi) There are alot of hunters who spend alot of time in our northern forests who have gone meatless for years. Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well, explain to me how that area got that way in the first place. This is the first sign that state departments take when using antler restrictions. The numbers depleted for a reason, and we know what that reason is.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>We also have areas that have had some pretty drastic doe harvest plans the last ten years which have made doe hunting almost as hard as hunting mature bucks. There are alot of areas with alot of hunters who disagree with our DNR about the buck to doe population and yet they still have two extra doe seasons every year. I'm sure there are alot of other reasons hunters could give for harvesting any buck. We're all in this for different reasons , everyone needs to remember that.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Just out of curiousity, could you give me the total numbers of does taken during the doe harvests? I would like to compare them to something I have here.

Is it very possible that not many hunters take part in the hunt because they are not able to take a buck? Even here in Missouri, the deer management process used to be quanity, not quality. But they are learning the errors of their past ways. Yes, a good herd number must be provided, before any quality techniques can be applied. But now, you are no longer able to buy a "buck only" tag. It is now an "any deer" tag, with several "bonus" tags that can be bought, and are encouraged to buy, in addition. The "antlerless season" has been moved up into Decmber from January, so as to avoid the unnecessary harvest of button bucks or bucks that have already dropped their antlers and possibly be confused as does. I believe the next step in the Missouri Dept. of Conservation's plan is to eliminate the wording "antlerless" that is used now, and change it to strictly "buck" or "doe" and quite possibly go to a muzzleloader/slug-gun seasons in the near years to come. In which I would strongly support.

A 130, 140, and up, class of animals are still alot better than taking spikes, forkhorns, and tiny basket racks. Remeber on thing, if you see large quanity of basket racks being taken, or in your area, the potential is there in just 3 short years. Many deer that end up with basket rack 6-10 points in their first two and a half years of life, are really nice deer in the making. But you have to let them get there first. If you are an experienced hunter and want meat, take the does. The excuse of "not many bucks being around, so I will take the first buck I see" is not a good way.

Yes, they (smaller bucks)are all legal harvests in your area . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .for now.

Tazman

11-27-2002 12:15 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

BOWFANATIC some of them are really up in arms with your viewpoint and reasoning! I have often wondered how many of these trophy hunters would have the same attitudes if they lived and or hunted in areas that had a huge abundance of deer and due just to shear numbers the entire herd suffered, or there were an excellent mix of young and fully mature bucks and you could take three bucks a year and almost all the doe you wanted to boot. I have a strong feeling that many of them hunt in areas where there is a one buck limit and very few bucks to go around.

I will be honest and say that if we were only allowed 1 buck a season I might share some of thier sentiments, because they have this need to have massive racks to allow them to brag about their kill.

Richie

"Well, explain to me how that area got that way in the first place. This is the first sign that state departments take when using antler restrictions. The numbers depleted for a reason, and we know what that reason is."

Perhaps you would like to explain that one to me, in Va. you can kill 3 buck a year and over 100 doe and we still have a growing herd of deer! If you think it is due to over harvesting of young bucks you may want to do some factual research of the area BOWFANATIC is speaking of. The further north you go the fewer deer there are due mainly to the far harsher winters which kill off huge numbers of deer when they are not kept thinned out.

I am not going to lie, I love venison and I love to hunt, if I lived there and I had a choice between no venison or waiting 3-4 years and hoping no one else killed my venison to hang a rack on my wall, or taking a basket 8, I would take the basket 8.

I have no problem with trophy hunters at all, if they want to drop the money and get enough property to control their trophy herd, I say go for it. I have killed my trophy in 74 and even though I have over the years seen some in Va. that would beat it, it sure wouldn't be by a whole lot.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

Deleted User

11-27-2002 12:30 PM

[Deleted]

[Deleted by Admins]

RICHIE3

11-27-2002 04:29 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
BOWFANATIC some of them are really up in arms with your viewpoint and reasoning! I have often wondered how many of these trophy hunters would have the same attitudes if they lived and or hunted in areas that had a huge abundance of deer and due just to shear numbers the entire herd suffered, or there were an excellent mix of young and fully mature bucks and you could take three bucks a year and almost all the doe you wanted to boot. I have a strong feeling that many of them hunt in areas where there is a one buck limit and very few bucks to go around.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Taz, you are wrong about me. I am not up in arms over anything. A debatable thread was posted, and I am debating to the best of my ability.
We also have the numbers of deer here in Missouri. I don't think this is an excuse for experienced hunters not to be selective. By the way, here in Missouri, you can take 3 bucks also(2 by archery--1 by firearm) and several does. There are very few, nice, big bucks to go around and for one reason. Too many smaller bucks harvested. I still haveen't seen a reason not to shoot does.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I will be honest and say that if we were only allowed 1 buck a season I might share some of thier sentiments, because they have this need to have massive racks to allow them to brag about their kill.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
By the way, I do not have a "need to brag" about anything I harvest in the hunting season, or for that matter, during the fishing season either. In fact, I would rather not have alot of people know about the animals I harvest. Why would I want anyone taking advantage of hard work and effort I have put in?? This happens all of the time, even you cannot deny that. So, the "bragging" theory does not hold water. Ask anyone who takes big bucks all of the time where exactly they go, I bet lips get glued together on the answers.
I prefer to try to take larger bucks for one reason. The satisfaction of knowing that I have for a brief moment, outwitted, outsmarted, or just got plain lucky over a massive buck. You can't tell me that you do not get a sense of joy or satisfaction when your close friends view your buck, and give compliments to you for it. It is not that you are bragging, just proud.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Perhaps you would like to explain that one to me, in Va. you can kill 3 buck a year and over 100 doe and we still have a growing herd of deer! If you think it is due to over harvesting of young bucks you may want to do some factual research of the area BOWFANATIC is speaking of. The further north you go the fewer deer there are due mainly to the far harsher winters which kill off huge numbers of deer when they are not kept thinned out.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Well, number one, I am not talking about Virginia. But, if you can take that many does without hurting the balance of the herd, then you have just answered your own question. It sounds to me that there is a serious lack of bucks in that state, or a serious lack of hunters per habitat with marginal bucks in the region. The "cold weather" theory has some points to it, but then again, how does Canada have so many large whitetails?? Do they not have any winter kill there?? I don't need you to tell me to do some research, I have not just fallen off of the truck.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I am not going to lie, I love venison and I love to hunt, if I lived there and I had a choice between no venison or waiting 3-4 years and hoping no one else killed my venison to hang a rack on my wall, or taking a basket 8, I would take the basket 8.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
That is your freedom of choice, I am just speaking of the consequenses of overharvesting of small bucks. Keep it going like some states are, and point restrictions are not far behind.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have no problem with trophy hunters at all, if they want to drop the money and get enough property to control their trophy herd, I say go for it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I do not spend money (except for gas) on Q.D.M., T.B.M., ect.
I just get off of my duff and do whatever is possible to help out the farmer or farmers in whatever they need done thru out the year.I help even though most say they do not need help. Just show up and get ready to do anything necessary. Sincere thanks is given back by helping me out in what I need done. It may not be much to them, but it is huge gains for me and my father and appreciated all the same.

I need to correct myself on a point my wife just pointed out.

I guess I do spend quite abit of money each year to help manage my little piece of heaven. It is spent on processing fees for the does that I harvest. And at $75.00 a pop and going up each year, it gets quite exspensive.

By the way, I haven't had any deer venison for the last 8 years. All venison has gone to help out the farmers and their families that I hunt on. And there is nothing more gratifying than that!!!

nmaineron

11-27-2002 07:25 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Here in northern Maine you have to shoot a buck and there are some bruisers here.It would be nice to be able to fill my freezer with a couple of does.Our game management plan is to keep as many does alive as they can in the areas where the population is low.We do have a doe permit lottery but in my area 350 permits are given out.It is hard to let to much walk past if you want meat for the freezer.It is a good season in my book to be able to say that I saw a muture buck let alone get a shot at one.Bragging is nice but meat is better in my book.

skeeter 7MM

11-28-2002 11:35 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I guess it is tamoteo vs tomoto, each have our own way and somtimes we feel as though the other is belittling our way. Leave it at that on meat vs. trophy.

Bow, I agree a lot has to do with ones given area and limits. I live in Sask. we can harvest 1 whitetail deer wither sex/year regardless of weapon. (yes, 1 deer total - doe or buck) Now we do have some areas that offer an additional wt doe or yearling, but the vast majority of the province is 1 deer. We have a draw and bow over the counter for Mule Deer tags as well. I also live in an area rich with great deer genetics..yep often refered to as one of the MECA's for Whitetail Bucks in NA. So for me harvesting a trohpy is a reality...I know this and am very fortunate as well. But in no way is it a gaurantee. They are big for a reason and it is challange to put a monarch on the dirt much like anywhere else. That being said we have meat hunters, shooters and trophy guys hunting this province...all with their own goals and objectives for what make deer hunting to them. However the meat hunters don't shoot buck, most opt for BIG DOE's, the shooters are the group that look for 120 as min. but as season dwindles and the end approaches they shoot any deer. Trophy guys are just that...some have standards 130, others 140-150, yet others 165 or better. So a real variety...I am in the middle 150 range...but it has to be mature. I have passed many deer that would go 150 but are young, only to shoot a doe or a 140 down runner(over the hill). By practicing this management in my little neck of the woods...the quality has sky rocketed...so much so my standards have changed (when I hunt there) and it is rare not to see shooter bucks in any given day. I now hold out for the one, which is either 16o plus high typical frame or junk (uniqueness). I really get a thrill out just seeing deer and the killing is the last thing I enjoy or care about. Again though that is me, not anybody else. As far as bragging, I don't do this to brag. It is a choice, challenge, experience, education, tradition, satisfaction, meat etc. I don't carry a camera with me anymore, you won't see me post a picture of my harvests here or anywhere. I do it for me, I love and will share my story (ies) with any one who cares to listen. I know you guys like stories and I enjoy them as well...this is why i come here..to live hunting with other hunters. The end result is personal satisfaction, not fame and fortune. Some guys like the attention, I am not one of them. I simply love to hunt and just happen to love hunting trophy deer. I started on this path 15 years ago and since then i have crossed many a road and had mant gut checks along the way. However it is what keeps me going, awake at night and that boyish smile when I feel the fall wind blow. getting out and being with the creatures of this planet, being able to ste my own path and just maybe conecting with my friend I dreamed about for the past 10 months or 10 years. Either way it is me, not you and I bet if you sat down and looked we ain't to different in our reason.

Sorry to blow and I am done with this topic...but I truly think it is great that we have different reasons, as long as we are happy...then we should all be happy for that person. AFTER ALL WE ARE ALL HUNTER's and that the final word.

bowbow

11-28-2002 04:25 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Personally I'm a trophy hunter, I take mature doe and I take mature bucks. I have no problem with anyone harvesting younger deer for food for the freezer or just for the excitement. Deer seem to currently be populating faster than we are harvesting them so feel free to take a couple. I work extermely hard to take mature deer and if everyone lets the little ones go I think it would become a little to easy and almost the norm for everyone to take a mature deer. For me that would kind of take away from the feeling you get when you do connect on a big deer. I will tell you this for sure, I've taken small bucks and I've taken larger bucks and taking a large buck satisfys my hunting needs far more than a small one. However that is me and I can only offer you my feelings. It is up to each hunter to make their own choice what makes them a happy hunter.

Check out my page.
http://www.geocities.com/scottbowden23/mydeer.html
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence and determination.
Calvin Coolidge

RICHIE3

11-28-2002 04:35 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Final word??

I don't think so.

Remember, we are all part time hunters at best, no matter how much time we spend in the woods.

I am still looking for good reasons why experienced hunters need to take small, inferior bucks. Several questions that I have posed in response, have yet to be answered by anyone in favor of taking small bucks.

Just trying to defend my view of this friendly debate.......

Anyone??

skeeter 7MM

11-28-2002 08:26 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Richie I was referring to Hunters as the final word...not this debate!

Meat HUNTER or Trophy HUNTER....sorry.

SW Iowa Hunter

11-28-2002 09:14 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Answer this question for me; Do you all keep small 1/2 lb. bass?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not keep a 1/2 pound bass mainly because I don't fish much and don't care to clean them!!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those that say that they just want meat, go ahead and shoot the does.

It seems to be the only excuse that small buck hunters use when they shoot a small buck. But they have no answers when you suggest that they should only take does.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I don't think you need an excuse to shoot anything
(legally).

I will try to give you a couple of reasons why experienced hunters may choose to shoot a small buck.

1. In some areas they may not have alot of opportunity to shoot a deer.
2. Some people get more of a thrill out of shooting a buck than a doe no matter what the size.
3. Some people just choose too.

I don't fall into the first two catagories because we have a large amount of deer and I like hunting deer so the small bucks make no difference to me verses does.

You may even say I am trophy hunting since this looks to be the first time in a long time that I may have an unused tag after season ends. I have a deer running around that will go in the 190+ range that I have been hunting. I have shot some big deer,maybe not as many as some,but nice deer anyway. They are not in the book,although some could be if I choose to enter them. some of them are actually hanging outside with the skull left on. One is on a plaque, one in the shed I think, couple on the cave at my parents, I don't even cut the horns off the little ones anymore just use the hide and ribe cage for coyote bait!!!

One thing I am proud of is that I don't let anything but my own choice determine what I will hunt and when. I agreee with Wolfen and Richie3 on letting the little walk makes for bigger deer. Does that truely make you happier?If it does then great, go for it.

If you like to just hunt,then hunt. Shoot whatever you want and if you are proud of it then who am I to do anything but slap you on the back and help drag it out!!!

Quote "I read a really good article several years ago about the stages we go through as hunters.In the begining we just want to kill a deer period.Any deer.Then as we become proficient at killing deer we want to fill all our tags or kill our limit as we would say down south.Then we want to kill nice bucks or trophys.After you kill a few nice deer then how you kill them becomes the challnge.Bowhunting or muzzle loading etc."

You can add one catagory to this list and that is when you no longer need a catagory to enjoy hunting. One day or one year I may trophy hunt the next day or year I may shoot everything by. The good thing about it is I enjoy myself no matter what.

Horn size really don't matter if you don't enjoy yourself while doing it. Sounded to me like Bowdacious had reached a new level with his hunting. Maybe he will go back to trophy hunting next year, maybe not.

You can agrue all you want and post all the questions you want about why would experienced hunters shoot this or that but it comes right down to,they want to and prob. have better reasons for doing it than most inexperienced hunters.

Personally I am more into watching our next generation get started into hunting than what I shoot anymore. Anyone who is a father knows what I mean.

Quote"SW Iowa...my mission in life is to get as many hunters as possible to understand the importance of letting immature bucks live and rarely will I pass up a chance to attempt to educate others on the topic. You see pics of monster bucks posted on this message board followed by dozens of hunters ooohing and aaaahhhing over it and talking about falling out of their stands if they ever say anything that big and a lot of these guys are the same hunters that shoot small, immature bucks. Enough said. This "debate" will continue no more on this post provided that no further posts require my response. Now let's see how emotional an issue this is for folks. Congratulations on your season Bowdacious."

Wolfen I don't disagree with you philosophy just don't like to see someone pushing thier beliefs on someone else. The above post was a very good response to my previous post and I want to thank you for the way it was posted, your point was very well taken and made with no offense intended or recieved.

I have thought about it and I would keep that 1/2 pound bass.

I changed my mind and made a different choice. That is the good thing about hunting in america, as long as you are not breaking the law or hurting someone else you can change your mind and choose something different from what you did yesterday.

By the way this is a great debate and staying very friendly and you are right Richie3 I am sure bowdacious knew what would happen with this post.

<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

" Anyone can be a father, but it takes a real man to be a Dad"

davidmil

11-28-2002 09:36 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Whack'em and stack'em. It's all about enjoying the game. I've been saying forever that some of you folks just don't know how lucky you are to have MONSTER bucks wandering all over. If I killed the biggest deer in the county he'd probably be a scrub in Iowa or Kansas. You try and do your rattling and calling here and you'll only call the neighbors. I just love all these guys that preach shoot the BIG ones only and let the small ones go. Most of them haven't shot more than 5 or 6 deer with a bow ever.... some of them NONE. Yet they profess to be something better than the guy who enjoys whacking his 6 pointer. I'm going to start a nationwide campaign urging ALL bowhunter to shoot the next Scrub they see. Put some blood on the ground. Spoil a trophy hunters dream.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Nothing but 6 points and less.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Have fun... to heck with the trophy hunter. I herein pledge to whack the next little spike or 4 point or 6 point that presents himself. I need the meat. I've only shot 6 this year and have given 5 away. Whack 'em and Stack 'em. AND yes, I go fishing about once or twice every 2 or 3 years. If it bites and is edible.... it gets fried.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - davidmil on 11/28/2002 22:49:39

RICHIE3

11-29-2002 06:16 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
1. In some areas they may not have alot of opportunity to shoot a deer.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Can you answer me why that is??? What areas are you talking about??
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>2. Some people get more of a thrill out of shooting a buck than a doe no matter what the size.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I am sure. I just know, that when an experienced hunter harvests a small basket rack 6 pointer, the following year he will say "I hope I shoot a smaller one this year!"
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>3. Some people just choose too.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Yes, you are right. And they will be the first one complaining about antler restrictions. Good answer.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't even cut the horns off the little ones anymore just use the hide and ribe cage for coyote bait!!!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Wow. I can't believe what I just read. You just got to take a small buck, can't take a doe for the same purpose?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Shoot whatever you want and if you are proud of it then who am I to do anything but slap you on the back and help drag it out!!!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Same here, if it is a large enough deer to justify two people dragging the animal out. But, unless there is some other unforeseen circumstances, you should have no trouble at all dragging out that spike buck.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Horn size really don't matter if you don't enjoy yourself while doing it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
You are missing the point, badly. I would be glad to harvest any animal that comes in front of me and know that it doesn't effect the state of hunting for tomorrow. But, we do not live in a perfect world, now do we? I know and have seen the effects of this type of thinking, and the outlook is not good.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You can agrue all you want and post all the questions you want about why would experienced hunters shoot this or that but it comes right down to,they want to and prob. have better reasons for doing it than most inexperienced hunters.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
That is all I am asking for. I would like to know the "better reasons for doing it", because I haven't seen any yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Personally I am more into watching our next generation get started into hunting than what I shoot anymore. Anyone who is a father knows what I mean.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Ahhhhhhhh..... There it is. If you are that interested for the future of younger generations, why not help presereve it? If people keep going on the path of "shoot everything that moves", there will be no future for the younger generations. Because, that is the way it is going. Just talk to the states with antler restrictions. How hard is it to understand? By the way, you don't have to be a father to understand what you said above. I don't have children, but take every opportunity to take any and all of my nieces and nephews out into the timber or onto the lake when ever they desire.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Wolfen I don't disagree with you philosophy just don't like to see someone pushing thier beliefs on someone else.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Once again, this is not about pushing beliefs of one onto another. It is a friendly debate, and that's what debates are, organized arguments.

RICHIE3

11-29-2002 06:51 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I've been saying forever that some of you folks just don't know how lucky you are to have MONSTER bucks wandering all over.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Are you sure that it is just luck?? Have you ever gave it any thought that someone might be doing all they can to help out the trophy bucks?? How did someone get trophy bucks in their area?? Is it because everyone and their brother shot every buck no matter what the size? I don't think so.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If I killed the biggest deer in the county he'd probably be a scrub in Iowa or Kansas.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Why is that I wonder?? Yes, it is true, some areas have better genetics than others, and you need genetics to help in the process of big deer. This will help speed up the process. But don't think for a minute that just because the genetics aren't there now, that there is no way they cannot be put into place for the future herd. Adding food plots, supplying natural mineral suppliments, ect. can help out future generations of bucks and does, even those that come from inferior genetic animals. Here is an example. You can take the child of the largest, strongest man in the world, but if he doesn't get nutrition properly and allowed to grow, he will look nothing like the father. This also works in reverse, but to a lesser degree. Only does that gap narrow from generation to generation with proper nutrition and growth.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I just love all these guys that preach shoot the BIG ones only and let the small ones go. Most of them haven't shot more than 5 or 6 deer with a bow ever.... some of them NONE. Yet they profess to be something better than the guy who enjoys whacking his 6 pointer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I am not professing to be anything you decribed. I just realize now the importance of my stance, instead dreading it later.<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm going to start a nationwide campaign urging ALL bowhunter to shoot the next Scrub they see. Put some blood on the ground. Spoil a trophy hunters dream.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Nothing but 6 points and less.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
This is a good one. You will not be spoiling my dream so much. But this type of thinking will spoil the dreams of many future hunters to come. Do you ever wonder why they call it "the good ol' days"? Probably not, but ask your grandchildren and great grandchildren, or anybodies future hunting generations this. Because by then, they will be calling today, the good ol' days, if we do not change our ways now.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I herein pledge to whack the next little spike or 4 point or 6 point that presents himself. I need the meat. I've only shot 6 this year and have given 5 away. Whack 'em and Stack 'em. AND yes, I go fishing about once or twice every 2 or 3 years. If it bites and is edible.... it gets fried.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Do you know what the equivalent to antler restrictions are in the fishing world??

They are called "length limits" or "slot limits". And they are already in place nation wide on public waters. There is a reason for this, the same reason for antler restrictions. Keep it up, it is coming soon near you.

JRW	11-29-2002 06:56 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

"I am still looking for good reasons why experienced hunters need to take small, inferior bucks. Several questions that I have posed in response, have yet to be answered by anyone in favor of taking small bucks."

How about the best reason of all...choice? It's one of the same reasons that we use to fight anti-hunters when they ask us all why we need to shoot any animal.

All sportsmen, be they hunters, fishermen, or gun owners in general, should be very careful about introducing need as a justification for doing anything. After all...who needs that semi-auto rifle or handgun?

Substituting choice for need is one of the animal rights and gun control lobby's favorite cards to play. As sportsmen, we should be more cautious when we start sliding down their slippery slope.

"I am sure. I just know, that when an experienced hunter harvests a small basket rack 6 pointer, the following year he will say "I hope I shoot a smaller one this year!"

Maybe he says, "I hope I shoot another one this year, and I don't much care if it's bigger or smaller". Have you never shot a buck that was smaller than "last year's trophy"? If so, did you set out to shoot a "smaller one", or did you just excercise your personal choice to do so?

JRW

RICHIE3

11-29-2002 07:19 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

How about the best reason of all...choice? It's one of the same reasons that we use to fight anti-hunters when they ask us all why we need to shoot any animal.

All sportsmen, be they hunters, fishermen, or gun owners in general, should be very careful about introducing need as a justification for doing anything. After all...who needs that semi-auto rifle or handgun?

Substituting choice for need is one of the animal rights and gun control lobby's favorite cards to play. As sportsmen, we should be more cautious when we start sliding down their slippery slope.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Is this all you have for a response for my questions? I do not agree with what was just said. Comparing a misunderstanding of my grammer to gun control isn't even on the same page.
I choose to hunt because I need to hunt. I choose to hunt because I need to help feed the families on which property I hunt on. Now, all that can be reversed and mean exactly the same thing. Why would I choose anything I do not need?? Everything that I have or own comes from a need for it. It is someone elses opinion that brings into play the difference between a "luxury" and "necessity".
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maybe he says, "I hope I shoot another one this year, and I don't much care if it's bigger or smaller".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
This is my point. It is my argument that he should care. If not for himself, than for future generations to come.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Have you never shot a buck that was smaller than "last year's trophy"? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Yes, of course I have. Now ask me the question if it was a basket rack, button buck, spike, forkhorn, ect., or a good quality animal.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If so, did you set out to shoot a "smaller one", or did you just excercise your personal choice to do so?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I chose to harvest the animal, because I realize the need for a quality herd for future generations.

Wow! 400 posts agian for the 3rd time!! I am glad it happened during a good spirited debate!! Thanks!!

Edited by - richie3 on 11/29/2002 08:23:22

Tazman

11-29-2002 07:40 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I have one for the QDM folks, you know there is a 7-8 year old monster 6 point on the property you hunt, 23-24 inches on the inside of the beam with 12-14" tines, he has never had brow tines or he would be a real brute of an 8 point, you also know there is a nice 3.5 year old buck that was a nice basket 8 last season. Now you see a scrub buck that is an easy shot, do you take him to stop him from mating, knowing that the other 2 nice bucks are still on the hoof? Mind you there is a huge amount of does in your area. You are to your knowledge the only person to hunt this area and you can kill 3 bucks a year and 100 doe. Do you cull him or let him walk, knowing he will breed and may get to be a bit larger, but still be a scrub buck passing on his genes?

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

davidmil

11-29-2002 08:31 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Tazman

11-29-2002 08:44 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

david was the <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> in regards to a logical question that could give justification in taking a scrub buck? I will be interested in the replies I get, one place I hunt has that exact scenario, the monster 6 beams are like my wrist, I have seen him once and trust me if someone got this guy it would be the word of the town.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

BOWFANATIC

11-29-2002 08:50 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Final word??

I don't think so.

Remember, we are all part time hunters at best, no matter how much time we spend in the woods.

I am still looking for good reasons why experienced hunters need to take small, inferior bucks. Several questions that I have posed in response, have yet to be answered by anyone in favor of taking small bucks.

Just trying to defend my view of this friendly debate.......

Anyone??
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I answered your question with several ligitimate scenarios. Your beginning to chase your tail.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> You started off by saying we should feel guilty for shooting small bucks when our neighbor doesn't see any bucks. When I responded that in alot of farm areas , mine in particular , the neighbors shoot anything , you turned it around (threw mud in my face) and said that "if the neihbors dont give a darn , neither should you?"<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>
Getting in a friendly debate is healthy , but it burns my backside when someone asks questions in behalf of their opinion , and then doesn't bother to acknowlege honest legitimate answers<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> BTW , the states who now have antler point restrictions , do you think they have the restrictions in place to strictly produce trophy bucks<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

SW Iowa Hunter

11-29-2002 08:51 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Quote "Ahhhhhhhh..... There it is. If you are that interested for the future of younger generations, why not help presereve it? If people keep going on the path of "shoot everything that moves", there will be no future for the younger generations. Because, that is the way it is going. "

Do you seriously think that shooting lets say 4 deer a year of which 2 can be bucks (Iowa law) will hurt the population of deer?

I started deer hunting at age 12 with a gun, 18 with a bow, and shot anything by for many of those years (still will if I take a fancy to it) and our deer population is much much greater now than when I started. We used to have a draw only system that was buck only, now everyone gets an anysex tag and they are handing out extra doe tags. Doesn't seem to support your debate that it is hurting the younger generation. There are many more big bucks now than ever.

In fact it can be argued that the next generation will be hurt more by the QDM people who do not let others hunt on large pieces of ground because they are worried that someone will shot something too small for thier standards.

What happens to that uncle or father or mother or whoever that wants to take thier child hunting but does not have the ground to hunt on. Public ground? I don't know about you but in Iowa the public ground isn't even safe to be on in gun season. I just got back from Wyoming antelope and mule deer hunting and can say that thier public ground isn't too safe either.

Wouldn't it be great if all the states were under QDM restrictions so that everyone would have to follow someone elses standards. Do you think antler restrictions are great? I would love to see the look on someones face (childs?) when you explain that they can not shoot that deer because someone else thinks it is too small. Maybe a trophy to them, maybe the only deer that they ever shoot? Maybe they get cancer or something happens that does not allow them to hunt anymore and those dang antler restrictions sure did a good job or preserving the quality of deer for someone else while robbing a memory from the next person.

Why is the size of the antlers so important to you? Is this how you grade your hunts?

Quote "quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Horn size really don't matter if you don't enjoy yourself while doing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are missing the point, badly. I would be glad to harvest any animal that comes in front of me and know that it doesn't effect the state of hunting for tomorrow. "

I am not missing the point, I in fact understand it very well.
What state of hunting is effected? The trophy hunters standards?

I hope my son and daughter do not get mixed up in all the ads for deer hunting telling them to shoot the big one and you will be happier only to forget about the sheer joy of being out in the woods for just the sake of hunting. The look on my face or thiers when they take an animal in its own habitat. Sit for hours waiting for the right shot so the animal doesn't suffer. The hours of practice and more hours of talking about it that it takes to harvest an animal. The time in the field with friends or the solitude away from work and worldly pressure that is relieved. I hope they enjoy the rights that others have sacraficed to give them. I hope they continue to fight for those rights.

Including the right to choose which animal makes them happier.

I don't think you understand, I think you missed my point, if you must grade your hunts or future hunts by the size of the deer you are missing the point.

For every post on here about someone shooting a big buck you see many posts about the hunters who are thrilled to shoot whatever deer they have shot.

You will not find any answers to the questions you keep asking because you are choose to dismiss any answers that you do not want to hear.

Bowdacious quote " "There is more to a Trophy, than the Size of the Rack"

That is the answer to all your questions.

" Anyone can be a father, but it takes a real man to be a Dad"

RICHIE3

11-29-2002 08:57 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have one for the QDM folks, you know there is a 7-8 year old monster 6 point on the property you hunt, 23-24 inches on the inside of the beam with 12-14" tines, he has never had brow tines or he would be a real brute of an 8 point, you also know there is a nice 3.5 year old buck that was a nice basket 8 last season. Now you see a scrub buck that is an easy shot, do you take him to stop him from mating, knowing that the other 2 nice bucks are still on the hoof? Mind you there is a huge amount of does in your area. You are to your knowledge the only person to hunt this area and you can kill 3 bucks a year and 100 doe. Do you cull him or let him walk, knowing he will breed and may get to be a bit larger, but still be a scrub buck passing on his genes?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
If I had three buck tags? Even if I had only one, I would most definately try for the 6 pointer right off!!! That buck you describe is a true trophy due to its rarity. Kind of like the 3 anltered buck I harvested a couple of weeks ago. It is a rare find in the nature of a piebald, albino, ect.

Now, Do I shoot the scrub buck while having 3 tags? Most definately. If I have done my homework, and have seen the same buck, year after year, and no significant growth has occured, I will do my part in removing him from the herd. If I am not 100% sure of it, I let it walk and take my chances that his offspring will load up on minerals and develope their own superior gene pool year after year.

BOWFANATIC

11-29-2002 09:14 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

SW Iowa Hunter , good post! You hit the nail on the head!
Sorry guys (trophy hunters) , but it is indeed the trophy hunters who will ruin hunting for our future generations. I've heard wolfen68 talk about this problem himself. Whats it gonna take for our grandkids to hunt? Every time you turn around , a group of trophy hunters are leasing up every bit of available land. Whats the term wolfen used? Land mongers? Well , every area leased around here by the "land mongers" becomes TBM.

BOWFANATIC

11-29-2002 09:19 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Personally I'm a trophy hunter, I take mature doe and I take mature bucks. I have no problem with anyone harvesting younger deer for food for the freezer or just for the excitement. Deer seem to currently be populating faster than we are harvesting them so feel free to take a couple. I work extermely hard to take mature deer and if everyone lets the little ones go I think it would become a little to easy and almost the norm for everyone to take a mature deer. For me that would kind of take away from the feeling you get when you do connect on a big deer. I will tell you this for sure, I've taken small bucks and I've taken larger bucks and taking a large buck satisfys my hunting needs far more than a small one. However that is me and I can only offer you my feelings. It is up to each hunter to make their own choice what makes them a happy hunter.

Check out my page.
http://www.geocities.com/scottbowden23/mydeer.html
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence and determination.
Calvin Coolidge
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

bowbow! Thank you! Your exactly the type of trophy hunter that I admire!<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> You see the big picture in clarity. A few others around here need corrective lenses<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

<---Doug---<<<

RICHIE3

11-29-2002 09:39 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I answered your question with several ligitimate scenarios. Your beginning to chase your tail.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> You started off by saying we should feel guilty for shooting small bucks when our neighbor doesn't see any bucks.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
That is not what I said at all..LOL...I am not chasing my tail, I am just continually repeating things that I have said due to my search for arguments to the contrary. I have yet to see any good reasons for an experienced hunter to harvest a young, small spike, forkhorn, button, or basket rack buck. My suggestion was maybe to try to help out the neighbor if you do not care for rack size. Keep in mind, he may have changed his thinking also, and now he may care about rack size. Maybe one or more of your offspring would like to harvest a quality buck when they get enough experience under their belt? Better yet, maybe they would want to do it as a novice hunter?? Wouldn't that be great? All the more reason to harvest does instead of smaller bucks.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> When I responded that in alot of farm areas , mine in particular , the neighbors shoot anything , you turned it around (threw mud in my face) and said that "if the neihbors dont give a darn , neither should you?"<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>
Getting in a friendly debate is healthy , but it burns my backside when someone asks questions in behalf of their opinion , and then doesn't bother to acknowlege honest legitimate answers<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I did not "throw mud in your face", sorry you feel that way, but if that is how you feel, so be it. Don't get too worked up over this disagreement. I am not. I answered your legitimate questiono f an earlier post, not your answer, with a legitimate question of my own, and I am waiting for a reply.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> BTW , the states who now have antler point restrictions , do you think they have the restrictions in place to strictly produce trophy bucks<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
No, that is not the total reason and you know this. But let it be said that the antler restrictions are in place to help balance out the buck to doe ratio by putting an imposed limit on the number of smaller bucks harvested. You cannot deny that. Bigger bucks are icing on the cake so to say, along with a healthier herd. In which, I would be willing to bet, everyone wants.

Let's get one thing straight.

Do I think it should be law for all experienced hunters to pass on all smaller bucks?

Absolutley not!!!

This is the very thing I am trying to avoid. Point restrictions in my state are the very thing I am trying to avoid.

I do not want my state deer herd getting anywhere near the status to where the state has to come up with more laws to regulate, hinder or make a hunt harder than it has to be. The states with imposed point restriction laws had to do it for a reason!!! And that reason is a very unstable balance in the buck to doe ratio.

SW Iowa Hunter

11-29-2002 10:06 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Quote "I have yet to see any good reasons for an experienced hunter to harvest a young, small spike, forkhorn, button, or basket rack buck. "

You have recieved several answers to your question but have choose to ignore them.

Let me ask you a few:

Why is antler size so important to your hunting?

Can you see that it is not that important to alot of people?

I agree with most of your points (prob. all of them) but just don't think that others have too. What worries me about these threads is that alot of young people are on this site and get ripped for shooting something that is not big enough.

All this QDM is great for the big bucks but that is all it does is help produce big bucks. Healthy deer herds? Nature will take care of that? People argue about habitat man is destroying and justify more intrusion by man with QDM with this argument.

QDM takes a large amount of land to be effective. You can not effectively manage a deer herd without control over the land they are on. This ultimately ends up with a group of people controling this land and telling others what they can or can't shoot.

I think it is great that you and others have choosen to only shoot mature bucks, I won't argue that this leads to better genetics and healthier deer ultimately.

I think that sometimes in our search for the next bigger and better product we often lose sight of what our goal was at the start.

Enjoy the right you have to hunt and let everyone else enjoy thiers.

By the way this has been the best debate I have been in for awhile and while I don't think we will ever totally agree on this subject it is fun.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>I have noticed that you are not responding to any of these arguments I have put in, whats up?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

" Anyone can be a father, but it takes a real man to be a Dad"

Charlie P

11-29-2002 10:18 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I'm an experienced hunter. Why did I shoot a small buck this year? Because I wanted to.Why didn't I shoot a doe? One didn't offer me a good shot oppurtunity before a four point did.

This year I hadn't had the time to hunt I usually do, so I dropped a big bodied four pointer with a double lunger and was very happy about it.Then I shot a doea week later. This afternoon I'm going to make some Venison Parm. with some of the meat and enjoy it with family and a couple friends.

I went the trophy hunting route for awhile you know what happened four years in a row.The Buck I was hunting ended up in the grill of someones car.No joke.

Buckfevr

11-29-2002 10:29 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Maybe when I get a real good buck with a bow, I should seriously think of quiting. I mean what's the point of continuing?

Nonsense.

RICHIE3

11-29-2002 10:32 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...and our deer population is much much greater now than when I started. We used to have a draw only system that was buck only, now everyone gets an anysex tag and they are handing out extra doe tags. Doesn't seem to support your debate that it is hurting the younger generation. There are many more big bucks now than ever. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
You have missed it and don't even know it. All states have a few giants roaming around. The reason why states (like Iowa, Missouri) are selling any sex deer tags and numerous doe tags instead of "buck only" tags, are the exact reasons that I have stated much earlier in this thread. These states early on in their conservation for whitetail deer processes, decided that quantity was the main issue. Now they have realized that is not the case, and a quality herd is now needed. "Buck only" tags are now obsolete in these two states so to encourage the harvest of does. If this is not the fact, there would still be "buck only" tags.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>In fact it can be argued that the next generation will be hurt more by the QDM people who do not let others hunt on large pieces of ground because they are worried that someone will shot something too small for thier standards.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
This is an incorrect statement. If large bucks were numerous and everywhere, there would be no need to "lock up" large tracts of ground. you would be able to take large mature whitetails anywhere, everyday. Also, maybe they are just doing their part to help out the herd. why should they put in the time and effort for someone else to come in and slaughter everything that moves?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What happens to that uncle or father or mother or whoever that wants to take thier child hunting but does not have the ground to hunt on. Public ground? I don't know about you but in Iowa the public ground isn't even safe to be on in gun season. I just got back from Wyoming antelope and mule deer hunting and can say that thier public ground isn't too safe either.

Wouldn't it be great if all the states were under QDM restrictions so that everyone would have to follow someone elses standards. Do you think antler restrictions are great? I would love to see the look on someones face (childs?) when you explain that they can not shoot that deer because someone else thinks it is too small. Maybe a trophy to them, maybe the only deer that they ever shoot? Maybe they get cancer or something happens that does not allow them to hunt anymore and those dang antler restrictions sure did a good job or preserving the quality of deer for someone else while robbing a memory from the next person. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

WOW!!!! Now we are playing the sympathy card!! O.K....I'll bite. I have as much sympathy for children, sick or healthy, or for the novice who would like to start his or hers hunting or fishing career.

I have never stated, in any single one of my posts, that youngsters or novice hunters should pass on a smaller buck. You should go back and read this entire post before making a statement like that to me. The original thread was by an experienced hunter, knowing the argumental responses were sure to follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Why is the size of the antlers so important to you? Is this how you grade your hunts?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I will not pull any punches. Yes, this is how I grade my hunts. This also my way of making the herd a more stable herd for everybody. It is my way of feeding the less fortunate, while keeping the herd stable. It is a proven fact, made every year by the actions of state conservation agencies across the land.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I am not missing the point, I in fact understand it very well.
What state of hunting is effected? The trophy hunters standards?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I am sorry, I think you are. It seems to me that the "trophy hunters" standards are quickly being adapted by state wildlife agencies every year. Especially when state agencies are the birthplace for Q.D.M. With all of the knowledge of the state biologists, and all of the new information that is found out every year from studies done in field research, I tend to believe them when they initiate point restrictions for a reason.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I hope my son and daughter do not get mixed up in all the ads for deer hunting telling them to shoot the big one and you will be happier only to forget about the sheer joy of being out in the woods for just the sake of hunting. The look on my face or thiers when they take an animal in its own habitat. Sit for hours waiting for the right shot so the animal doesn't suffer. The hours of practice and more hours of talking about it that it takes to harvest an animal. The time in the field with friends or the solitude away from work and worldly pressure that is relieved. I hope they enjoy the rights that others have sacraficed to give them. I hope they continue to fight for those rights. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Once again, this original post was about a experienced hunter taking a smaller buck, with an understanding of the responses that it would arise. Otherwise, he would have just stated that he shot a buck this year, in which I would have congradulated him. I will not belittle anyone who takes a smaller buck when they have the experience under their belt. But, when put in a way to where they want a debate about it, I will not miss the opportunity to disperse my beliefs.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I don't think you understand, I think you missed my point, if you must grade your hunts or future hunts by the size of the deer you are missing the point. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Well...I think the opposite about yourself. If you are a novice hunter, take anything you like, if you are an experienced hunter, you should give my way a try for a year or two and see the number in bigger buck sightings increase.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You will not find any answers to the questions you keep asking because you are choose to dismiss any answers that you do not want to hear. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
No.. That is not true. I have disected, quoted points against my arguments, on every post to the contrary. I have dodged no questions, just countered them with direct answers.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That is the answer to all your questions.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
That may be what you settle for in life, but not me.

I have to go now for awhile, but I will be back on later today to respond again, to you last post. I will not dodge anything, but i cannot sit on the ccomputer all day. See ya'll in a few hours!!

Edited by - richie3 on 11/29/2002 11:36:58

Tazman

11-29-2002 11:02 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

RICHIE and all others, I see RICHIE has acknowledged that in certain instances taking dink/scrub bucks is beneficial to the overall herd in QDM standards, there are some other reasons posted here that justify the taking of lesser bucks.

I will only speak for the area I hunt when I say the following, we need to thin the does, no matter what age(except fawns)drastically simply due to over population, but we also need to take inferior bucks from areas where known larger bucks reside to keep the inferior bucks from breeding.

I do and will allow basket bucks walk that are immature, but I have no problems with someone else taking them just due to the shear numbers of deer we have here. I will say this though, if next year I notice a big increase in basket 8's I may just take one.

Oh and one more thing, if in a year or two when my twins start hunting I will encourage and praise them to take any buck they see. As they get a few deer under their belts I will encourage them to let the smaller ones walk, but if they decide to take a small one I will not discipline them as long as the venison is not wasted.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have one for the QDM folks, you know there is a 7-8 year old monster 6 point on the property you hunt, 23-24 inches on the inside of the beam with 12-14" tines, he has never had brow tines or he would be a real brute of an 8 point, you also know there is a nice 3.5 year old buck that was a nice basket 8 last season. Now you see a scrub buck that is an easy shot, do you take him to stop him from mating, knowing that the other 2 nice bucks are still on the hoof? Mind you there is a huge amount of does in your area. You are to your knowledge the only person to hunt this area and you can kill 3 bucks a year and 100 doe. Do you cull him or let him walk, knowing he will breed and may get to be a bit larger, but still be a scrub buck passing on his genes?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
If I had three buck tags? Even if I had only one, I would most definately try for the 6 pointer right off!!! That buck you describe is a true trophy due to its rarity. Kind of like the 3 anltered buck I harvested a couple of weeks ago. It is a rare find in the nature of a piebald, albino, ect.

Now, Do I shoot the scrub buck while having 3 tags? Most definately. If I have done my homework, and have seen the same buck, year after year, and no significant growth has occured, I will do my part in removing him from the herd. If I am not 100% sure of it, I let it walk and take my chances that his offspring will load up on minerals and develope their own superior gene pool year after year.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

stealthman

11-29-2002 11:53 AM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I truly enjoy matching wits with a mature whitetail buck..... although most times the buck wins!
I have been lucky enough to take 3 P&Y whitetails and am very thankful for them,I do try and take a doe every year and do my part for game management,I do not shoot the small bucks as they will turn into "SHOOTERS" if guys will just let them walk!
To each his own and we all must do what we enjoy....it does get frustrating,holding out for a mature buck!
When it all comes together and you take a truly nice buck it is all worth the wait!!!!!!
I have screwed up more times on big bucks than I like to admit....but I guess that is what makes them so special,they are smarter than the other deer and most hunters!

skeeter 7MM

11-29-2002 12:03 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have one for the QDM folks, you know there is a 7-8 year old monster 6 point on the property you hunt, 23-24 inches on the inside of the beam with 12-14" tines, he has never had brow tines or he would be a real brute of an 8 point, you also know there is a nice 3.5 year old buck that was a nice basket 8 last season. Now you see a scrub buck that is an easy shot, do you take him to stop him from mating, knowing that the other 2 nice bucks are still on the hoof? Mind you there is a huge amount of does in your area. You are to your knowledge the only person to hunt this area and you can kill 3 bucks a year and 100 doe. Do you cull him or let him walk, knowing he will breed and may get to be a bit larger, but still be a scrub buck passing on his genes?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this given situation I would tag the "scrub", since i have a good shot opp and 3 tags knowing the area that he really does nothing to my heard for the buck side and I don't need more does..so his worth is minimal.(better suited to my freezer)

I would hunt the 6 point and thin the does when the opportunity arises. However if the 6 point was still showing the same signs of monster qualities and the 3.5 basket rack appeared to be not going anywhere...I would opt to take out yet the another poor quality deer, the basket rack. If the roles were reversed and the basket rack was indeed showing signs of going somewhere I would pass him. If the 6 point was starting a downwind swing he'd be gone given the chance.

Now if both these deer were on the up, I would see what else remains in my area for bucks. Seeing the area was scattered with does but only these 2 larger bucks...it wouldn't be QDM to remove the 2 heavies out of the group. I would then harvest mature deer that were in the "Scrub" buck catagory and more does. It wouldn't make sense to get rid of your high genetics if you area was buck/doe out of whack.

If the area was buck/doe in check, I would most definetely spend the bulk of my time on the big 6 and still thinning out my does as I go along. The scrub buck mentioned would be still taken, as would another if the shot was presented (keeping my last tag for the 6).

Is this Trophy Hunting, you bet you are setting yourself up for the future. If their are no Trophies present now then you must make a plan for the future. Reduce the herd, buck/doe in check and get rid of the poor genes. What you'll be left with is year to year growth and quality on the rise. It may take 2-5 years to haul out the bad boy you dreamed of, but then it will just keep getting easier...the more you have the better the chances. (Sure the big 6 maybe considered a Trophy, but if he is the big generator of your genetics pool for quality than removing him would prove to be useless at this point)

Tazman

11-29-2002 12:25 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

skeeter this 6 pointer is one sly old dog, I have hunted the you know what out of this property and only seen him once, he is huge, both in body and rack. The guy who owns the property is one heck of a hunter, he has a trophy room full of big white tails, one beautiful mulie, and one really nice Elk to boot. He has the 6 point on video tape taken during the off season, he told me he hunted him hard for three years and threw the towel in on him.

I know where he beds, it is in an overgrown field where he has every advantage in the world, the one time I saw him was at about 100 yards, jumped him out of his bed, there is only one word I can use to describe him, majestic! He enters the bedding area before sunup and leaves after sundown. One of these days, I hope before he starts going down hill he is going to slip up and I hope I am there when he does.

The basket 8 was young last year, I have a feeling he is pretty big now if the 6 point is his daddy! I just hope the 6 point is a prolific breeder!!!!

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

JRW	11-29-2002 12:26 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Sorry Richie, that dog won't hunt (no pun intented).

"Is this all you have for a response for my questions?"

It was more than sufficient. I shoot what I shoot because I choose to. Justification to you or anyone else is not even on the radar of consideration.

No offense, but who are you that I should have to explain what deer I legally take?

"I choose to hunt because I need to hunt."

No, you don't need to hunt. You won't die if you don't shoot a deer.

"I choose to hunt because I need to help feed the families on which property I hunt on."

For some reason, I highly doubt they'll starve to death if you don't kill a deer or two for them.

"Comparing a misunderstanding of my grammer to gun control isn't even on the same page."

Not only on the same page, but the same paragraph as well. You're wanting people to justify their supposed "need" to kill buck that you personally feel is below your standards. Every day, sportsmen are faced with the same challenges, to show "need" for our gun ownership, hunting, and fishing.

The argument, or rather, demand of explanation, is absurd at best. No one owes you, or any trophy hunter, any explanation for the deer they choose to kill, or pass up. Just like no one owes PeTA or Sarah Brady an explanation for their choices concerning gun ownership or legal hunting activities.

Why do you think any fellow hunter owes you some justification for shooting any deer?

BOWFANATIC

"SW Iowa Hunter , good post! You hit the nail on the head!
Sorry guys (trophy hunters) , but it is indeed the trophy hunters who will ruin hunting for our future generations. I've heard wolfen68 talk about this problem himself. Whats it gonna take for our grandkids to hunt? Every time you turn around , a group of trophy hunters are leasing up every bit of available land. Whats the term wolfen used? Land mongers? Well , every area leased around here by the "land mongers" becomes TBM."

OUTSTANDING post! As someone who lives in Illinois, I couldn't agree more.

JRW

James Vee

11-29-2002 01:11 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>BOWFANATIC

"SW Iowa Hunter , good post! You hit the nail on the head!
Sorry guys (trophy hunters) , but it is indeed the trophy hunters who will ruin hunting for our future generations. I've heard wolfen68 talk about this problem himself. Whats it gonna take for our grandkids to hunt? Every time you turn around , a group of trophy hunters are leasing up every bit of available land. Whats the term wolfen used? Land mongers? Well , every area leased around here by the "land mongers" becomes TBM."

OUTSTANDING post! As someone who lives in Illinois, I couldn't agree more.

JRW
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That, my friends, is why they have state land. For those who either can not afford to buy and manage their own land, and to ensure the rights of hunters and other citizens to use the land as they wish. If this means taking deer that don't meet the standards of your local TBM groups, then this is the place for you to hunt.

skeeter 7MM

11-29-2002 01:57 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Tazman, sounds great and you illistrated in your story one the reason I choose to be who I am in hunting terms!!! Completely capture the essence just by reliving his experience with one deer. You know while describing that story i could almost picture it, why cause I been their in real life and many more times in my head.

I too had a ghost, he was the largest non-typical wt I have ever seen on the hoof. I only caught a look once in the daylight as it was fading and 8 times in the headlights of the truck over a 3 year period. In fact i thought he was dream, until the 2nd last time we saw him I had 3 others that verified he was no dream. Guess what guys, I never got him and he was found dead 2 winters after the last sighting...still scored enough to easily make B&C in both typical and notypical. When I drive that trail or sit in that area I still see him standing their, at night I think of him just peering off as the light faded the first time I saw him and when I think of why I choose to be who I am...he's the first to pop in my mind...not the ones i connected on but the one the ouwit, outplayed and outsmarter me (sorry to quote that terrible reality show...but true) He one many a battle with both animal and man...Monarch is his name. Now when I do connect I think of just how rare and great accomplishment I have done. But you know what that feeling of harvesting a doe or lesser is the same...it is all that a sense of accomplishment, outwitting him/her on her field. (if you have goals that are met...if your killing just to check the box (male)or succesful in your hunter survey than that is the wrong reason...imho)

I have stated this and will again, if you hunt for meat or hunt for horn it is all the same if you are happy with what you have accomplished. I don't want us all to be the same, life isn't like that in any other ways, why should it be in hunting. If you want a view point or back up on why a person does what they do, then be prepared for answers you may not want to hear or agree with. Trying to convince each other our way is the best is stupid and immpossible. Nor is it required to prove why you choose to do what you do...it is personal choice. If your proof or reasoning equals satisfaction then by all means do what you will. The last thing I (or you)want or need is to be told...no that is all wrong.

I can't comment on the trophy and lease thing since that is not the case here. But if the herd quality went up across the board then would it not be fair to say their would be less need to "Monger Land" and create your own TBM? Here it was largely thought the true trophies were only located in the central/south part of the province, largely in agriculture land. this was true to some extend b/c they for years offered a 2 Buck limit in the northern regions and forest to help in promoting hunters to hunt these areas and help keep the pop. in check. Well that proved to be a incorrect Management desicion, the limit was reduced to 1 deer all over the province and an added doe tag was put in place for those areas. If you polled the hunters of this province to get results on deer and mature whitetails you'd get the same answer...they are everywhere and your chances of bagging deer and good bucks are as good in the south to the north. Most people hunt here for convience (near home) most wouldn't travel to the bush to kill only 1 Buck and a doe. Results are a balanced herd & excellent opportunities throughout. (we don't have the numbers some of you have in deer or hunters, are deer herd (Whitetail/Mules) is pegged at million, about 55,000 tags are sold a year which includes mule, wt-either and doe and about 30,000 are harvested..of about 75% are indeed bucks..success rates for a deer are in that 60% range for deer in total)(but if you run the numbers for whitetail deer alone you'll end up in the 78% and mules about the same...the archery only mule deer tag drags down the harvest success rate due to about only 30% succes rate is accomplished) The 75% male rate is still the same with each catagory.

Why did i give you all this data, cause it shows that management of a herd shouldn't be based on numbers alone but the area and the herd as whole. Many think our DNR are way to strict on the management side and should allow for more does than they do, but they also know either sex tags are primarily used for bucks and that by introducing more doe permits puts more pressure on the buck population. Areas that receive less preesure or hunting activity need the available doe tag to encourage doe harvest. It all boils down to a great place to hunt, so good I am thankful indeed! But it should also help explain one reason why I choose to hold my tag, instead of use it on the first legal animal.

Edited by - skeeter 7mm on 11/29/2002 15:04:28

Big Country

11-29-2002 07:52 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

I`ll let you guys fight away about shooting young deer or not. One thing that Bowfanatic pointed out about the "land mongers" though, I will address. I guess I am a land monger according to this new definition, anyway, a substantial sized farm next to my lease in Illinois leased out this year to a group from South Carolina. Now these are only the bucks that came onto my lease, who knows what went the other way? Five, count them, five gutshot bucks came across onto us(we watched 3 of them come over)they are all lying dead on my lease. The biggest buck was maybe 110". Lousy, unethical hunters to say the least, but obviously NOT trophy hunters.
So I guess ALL land mongers are not like me, they don`t all feel the need to let small bucks walk.
Last year I got involved in the never ending debate concerning letting young bucks walk, and soon realized it was like beating your thumb with a hammer! It feels better when you stop.
Last year I did ask one question, that I have yet to see a legitimate answer to.
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possibly WANT to shoot smaller bucks?

I will add something that wolfen said, it went something along the lines of young bucks are so dumb, its like throwing them a stick and telling them to fetch it.
He is not that far off.
Young bucks are that dumb, at least in the dozen or so states that I have hunted whitetails in. It is no big feat to shoot one. If that is want someone wants to do, you won`t get any slack from me. Unless you want to hunt on one of my leases!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I forgot to add this....BOWDACIOUS, you did the right thing bud. If, and when hunting for only big bucks turns into no fun for me, I will do whatever it takes(within the law) to bring the fun back into it!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Edited by - Big Country on 11/29/2002 20:56:46

kgkoon

11-29-2002 10:09 PM

RE: Trophy Hunting?

Why do I kill small bucks? Because I enjoy deer hunting; I enjoy sitting in the woods all day, watching squirrels and other animals play; I enjoy the camradarie of deer camp; I enjoy helping a long time friend drag his small buck out of the woods; I enjoy helping that same friend skin his little buck, knowing he will help me; I enjoy sharing stories at deer camp of past kills, and the ones that got away; I enjoy listening to a youngster tell of his sighting a 4 point; and I enjoy killing deer, plain and simple.
None of us "need" to hunt!! It is a tradition, passed down from times when maybe it was needed. To me, antler restrictions and trophy management are geared toward the "competitive hunter". Hunting to me is not about antler size!! So why do I take little bucks? Because they are a deer, and I am a deer hunter. Its pretty simple when you think about it.

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