The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

I tried not to get involved in these threads, but I can't hold my breath any longer. I hope to shed a little light on the QDM bashers with my own real world experience. I gurantee if you have seen what I have, you would change your tune.

Also, let me point out that QDM is being mixed up with QAM (Quality Antler Management)around here a little too much. Bigger bucks are in fact a SIDE BENEFIT of the QDM movement, but are not the objective.

Now to my real world experience, how we as game managers have messed up and why QDM is the right choice.

I am EXTREMELY fortunate to be able to hunt an area that has almost zero hunting pressure and one area within this area that, in fact, has zero hunting pressure, except from my family. This is an area that has no human traffic and most of the deer have never seen ahuman before. The buck to doe ratio is almost 1:1. There are natural predators, wolves.

We as "game managers" have failed miserably. Our first mistake was to eliminate thenatural predators because theywerekilling "our" animals. The natural predators, wolves,are not selective hunters. They do not care if it is adoe, fawn,sick, weak, or a healthyand mature buck.In early game management wethought that more deer was better. In that old school of thought, (which many still posess)only bucks should be killed. These two factors have solely caused the huge boom and problem in the population.

In anotherpost someone mentioned the days when he saw very few deer and hunting was a challenge. Over the years this same person, like many others, killed only bucks and left the does to breed.How many of these does actually died from year to year? Very few. Why? There was no longer a predator to take them out of theherd, the wolves were in fact gone. Now we have the problem of the buck to doe ratio getting out of whack. In the natural world, and healthy herd, the buck to doe ratio would be nearly 1:1. You could argue that we have "farmed" our population to be as large as it is today. (I've heard that term thrown around recklessly as well)

If we are to be used as a tool for game management and want to keep our hunting traditions alive, we need to change. Drastically. The idea of kill what you want, as long as its legal, is a very naive way of thinking and needs to fall by the wayside. Along with the idea of the more deer I see while hunting, the better.

Theidea of QDM, (not QAM!)is a very powerful tool and very simple. Shoot more does and only mature bucks. By doing this you bring the buck to doe ratio closer and it begins to resemble the natural world, before we showed up andbotched it.Its as plain and simple as that.Though most people don't like it, because they then won't see as many deer.

I'm not the best at transfering my thoughts from my brain to the screen.:D I probably left some holes in my thinking and will be back to fill them in.

It all seems pretty black and white to me. Then again, I have been to the promised land of deer hunting and have seen what99.9% of people will never see in their lives.A truely undisturbed and natural deer herdlivingand thriving next to the greatest quality deer managers out there, the wolf.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

I agree with everything you said/say.....but you'd probably be taken more seriously if your signature said

"NANNY OR NOTHING":D

Jeff

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

LOL I figured someone would bring that up. The reason I say "Boonie or Bust!"is because I have a personal challenge to shoot at least one "Booner" in my life. Though I will probably never enter it in the books, but it would look great on my wall.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Good post, Dan.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

I agree with you as well, but in some areas its just not possible to post as a QDM area. Why? Well in Wisconsin if you post your land as QDM, you have to let so many hunters (public) hunt that property per year. And if we havent had a hard enough time with tresspassers already in the last few years on our property. Everyone and their dead ancestors wants a piece of our property. Not just because of recreational value but because of the value of whats in the ground. We have had granit companies from all over the state want a piece of our land. Also have had housing developers offer us very very large substantial amounts per acre for our land, always being declined. Therefore why make a situation worse than it already is. We do not post our land as QDM because of the hi risk factor it would place among our family, friends, neighbors and relatives. Yet we did start our own private QDM with in our family. Forbow season only though. Between the days of Sept 18th-Nov17th bucks must have no less than 8 points and be older than 2 1/2 years of age and if the law permits, we can shoot any doe as long as its no younger that 11/2 years of age.We just starteddoing this, this year as our buck to do ratio is very low in hopes to harvest larger bucks off our property with in the next 2-4 years. The largest antlered rack taken off the farm was a 9 pointer back in 1995. The largest bodied deer was a 240lb 8 pointer (dressed out and weighed offically). See pic(s). We have never taken anything larger off our farm than the 9 pointer. Were not after large rack deers as we can not eat the antlers anway but what were trying to accomplish is raising larger bodied, more mature deer, but that boone and crocket buck or pope and young buck sure would be nice. If anyone thinks that we could do something different throw your ideas my way id like to hear some. QDM can be anything that the owner or the hunters desire or concider a QDM deer. This buck was concidered management buck.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

and another pic of the buck hanging next to a 140lb doe.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

That right there is it, in a nut shell:)

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

But why wouldn't you shoot the younger does (younger than 1-1/2.....if it were for management puposes), then? I'm curious.

Jeff

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Jeff you would want to shoot the olde doe's. This way the younger ones get bread with the healther deer. The old genetics "die out". If your area was really bad I would target the mature deer.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Germ....

This goes against everything I've ever heard about QDM. What "I" have heard....is the youger does are likely the smaller ones (stand to reason)...and that they're likely going to come into estrous and be bred if not taken from the herd. Her offspring will be not as healthy as those bred from a mature doe.

I've seen MANY QDM types on TV state this theory....including uncle Ted. He's a BIG proponent of taking doe fawns out of the herd in lieu of mature does (IF GIVEN THE CHOICE).

I'd like to hear nore about this...in hopes of learning something before I enter the woods on Saturday for THIS PURPOSE, alone.

Also.....if you've got a mature, healthy doe....WHY would you want her out of the gene pool?

Jeff

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

i'm sorry but I can't seem to apply this to my 400 acres of highly pressured lease. My hunting buddy and I have talked to adjoining landowners about trying QDM. Its not gonna happen. Most adjoining properties are from 10-50 acres. There is a TON of pressure. The prevailing attitude is "brown its down". We have tried to change that and we can't. So I too will shoot what I see. We don't have a herd, we have some deer. Until I can afford to hunt land where QDM is possible I'm not going to pass much. this is my second year of bowhunting and I am having an absolute blast. That is what it is all about to me. QDM or QAM sure seems to be a lot easier for some than it is for others. And yes, I know I could do my part. I could have passed on the spike or the young 7pt. I killed this year. Just how effective would that be? Do you honestly think it would make a difference when one or two hunters out of dozens, (literally), try to manage the "herd"? Oh, BTW, we can only kill does during archery season. Most of the pressure is during gun season so our buck to doe ratio is a mess. Without the co-operation of other hunters and landowners QDM is just not possible on smaller tracts of land. I'm glad that you have the room and opportunity to practice QDM or QAM if that is your wish. I do not. I will continue to go out and have an absolute blast and kill whatever I see.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

I had this discussion with a DNR rep recently. He said:

Young doe(<1.5 yrs old) are the best deer to remove from the herd. The older does' fawn have higher survival rates because they are better mothers - more robust mammaries, more predator savvy etc.

The trick is that it takes disciplined shooters to make sure that there are no buttons on the small 'does' that are being shot.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Good post Dan. SBGobblers, I used to shoot mature does. In the spring of 2003 I found 37 dead deer and 99% of them were fawns. In the spring of 2004 I found 17 dead deer, 99% of them were fawns also. We have had to many deer for to long and the good browse is to high for the fawns to reach. Now I shoot doe fawns, knowing that they have a good chance of dyeing anyway. One good thing out of all this is, two bad winters in a row brought our deer numbers down to where they should be.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

mlo...It would stand to reason, for me.....that you don't want those doe fawns coming into late estrous and breeding, too. Take 'em out.

We rarely have this scenario presented to us in re: to bucks. We understand the best breeding stock.....but we typically TARGET these animals. In a perfect world....."I" would have let the deer I shot Saturday WALK! He's one of the best breeders in my woods. That fact makes him my TARGET (And I harvested him, Saturday). I'm just being honest, here. If I were practicing strict QDM....he should have walked. I shot the deer I wanted to take. No apologies.

In a perfect scenario....I'd have wanted him breeding ALL the healthy, mature does. A young, smaller doe wouldn't do his genetics justice (IMO).

Jeff

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Jeff this is only if your herd is in really bad shop. You take the older deer out, so the younger deerbreed. This will help weed out the bad genes. You only do so at the start. Sorry I should have put this in. Once your have a good base your all set.

Few place in MI where Metro parks are over run. When you get to this point deer are in bad shape. They are under weight, poor antler and just not healthy.

Places like my farm I shoot would just shoot a doe for every buck.I wouldreally not care about age on either. Ifwe could just do this our herds on average would bebetter.

The natural world is gone, we screwed it up, We should do what is best herd. Maybe it is shooting no bucks for awhile(I have done this).

We love the line "We are conservationallist" So lets start acting like one!

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

It seems inconsistent to me to argue that natures way is not selective and then propose a highly selective hunting strategy to more closely "resemble the natural world". If we wanted to get closer to your view of the "natural world" the herd would be better off if each hunter would adopt the if it's brown it's down philosophy. If everybody just shot the first deer they saw it would much more closely approximate a random kill than a stategy that very selelectively targets mature buck and females. Said another way, a strategy that selectively protects male deer with small antlers.

I disagree with your premise in the first place though. I don't believe natures way is random. I believe it is highly selective. Natural predators seek out the easiest to kill. The weak the sick and the young are usually the first to fall. The big mature bucks are the lowest on the predators target list. So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks over the imature bucks and femalesis bass ackwords!

Now if your goal is simply to improve the probability that a hunter will get the opportunity to kill a mature buck then I think you've got a winner.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Unfortunately QDM would never work were I hunt. My family is just too big and own too many farms. Over the years the better part of several towns have permission to hunt there. One farm were I hunt is about 300 acres and not farmed (mostly woods and swamp and gas piplines). I'd wager that during our 1-week deer gun season over 50-75 different folks go through it. I have seen single groups over 20 people. Atleast half do not have permission. We have started throwing people off but only those who dont even know who's property it is. For QDM to work (we have thought about it) we would probably have to limit the number down to just the few family members and some close friends, like a dozen or less people that we trust. This would be almost impossible and probably piss enough people off to the point that I would worry about the unoccupied house on the land that is full of antiques. I always joke that we might as well call it state land. There is always big deer there too, and a couple monsters have been taken there. I'd love to do it, but I dont think its possible.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Hey....I agree! Why is everyone waiting on that buck, then. Why pass the does to shoot the 1-1/2 yr old buck? If i shot the first deer that presented itself each time afield.....I'll ASSURE you it owuld MOST times be a doe, though.

Jeff

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

If you want the kill to be random you wouldn't pass anything you could legally take.Taking a doeof course assumes you were issued a doe tag and you still have it. Once you're down to only a buck tag you shoot the first antlered deer you see. Again, that's if the goal is a random kill.

Why do hunters wait on the buck? Because hunters generally don't kill atrandom. Hunters are selective killers and as a rule prefer to kill a buck and the bigger the better.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Germ, what makes you think an older doe has bad genes?

What is being bandied aboutis too much of a one size fits all approach to management. What any good management plan needs first is a good herd assessment. This is absolutely necessary before making any type of management plan. You have to determine the carrying capacity of your area (and surrounding area if the area you control is too small to be considered solo, which is usually the case). You have to do a browse survey to determine how badly the herd has impacted the local flora and how much of preferred and secondary browse is available. If all preferred, secondary, and even less preferred browse is eaten to the ground and up to 5' than it's a good indication you have too large a herd. You then have to determine what steps need to be taken to correct your area. But keep in mind that most people are fooling themselves that they can effect things in amajor way unless they can control a very large tract of contiguous land. After that there are many considerations on how to manage the area.

If you are interested in a truly scientific approach to managing your herd I suggest you buy and read Dr. Kroll's book A Practical Guide to Producing and Harvesting White-tailed Deer. He is a professor at the College of Forestry at Stephen F. Austin State University.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

In an area that is over populatednreally bad, like a metro park I would start with the older deer. Try to start "over", I have no idea what genes any deer has. To "start" over in an area I would hammer the old doe's first. I would also let the best bucks walk and breed with the younger doe's to start a good health herd again

This pratice is only for areas that are in REALLY BAD SHAPE. Just a way to start over, without killing everything. Get quailty deer in your area again.

Talon I agree with you 100% no magic stamp. I just look at land in Ohio on Sunday. I would just shoot a doe for every buck I shot. The area looked really good!!

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Very true, the issue is getting others around you to prescribe to the notion. I own a little over 500 acres of land and according to the brows we have, my land should support 71 deer. That is at a healthy level (going by our conservation programs1 deer per 7 acres for my land type). I have that covered easily. I have far less than 71 deer using my land. One problem is, my land is more linier acreage rather than square acreage, so all the deer that frequent my land depend on others. Ifothers do not prescribe to QDM, which they do not, its a worthlessendeavor.I'm a meat hunter and agree with your post, id like bigger bodied deer, but due to the lack of participation, its a moot point on my half.
[/align][/align]
[/align]I posted the pole on which deer to shoot thread to see if people made a distinction between QDM and QAM.
[/align]

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Great post. In our area of the UP, QDM would be a dream come true. REAL QDM, like you describe earlier. IT is so hard to do though when there are so many people that could care less. In an earlier post on a different thread, Italked about the "N.I.M.B.Y." (not in my back yard) philosophy. By this, I am referring to a great number of people that come up and take the first buck that walks by, but would never dream of taking that buck on their home area, especially with archery tackle. This is one of the practices that needs to die, IMO, to achieve a good herd management, and an overall better herd. The buck:doe ratio is so out of whack, it is not even funny. On a normal year, we will see approx. 15-20 does before seeing any bucks, let alone a shooter. This is a situation where true QDM would definitely help.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Mike what did you think of the DNR(MI) harvest report for UP?

For our state(MI) it was 70% bucks 30% does for firearm season.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

The harvest numbers are a JOKE!!!! They have absolutely no idea how many deer are shot. Every year I write the same letter, about registration, and I get the same response. "Registration is just not practical at this time, and we get accurate numbers without it, at least as accurate as states that register." I would love to take that letter and shove it up their a**. For the first year in my 11 years of MI hunting, I got a harvest survey, but only because I bought my tags online. As far as doe harvest, I would not be surprised at all if there were as low as 10% doe harvest. Doe tags are limited, and also there is a macho problem as well. MI seems to be kind of becoming the model of how NOT to handle the deer herd, which is even more frustrating when we are bordered/near awesome states, like IL, IN, OH, MN, WI, and Canada! Pisses me off to no end!!!!

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

My original point with this thread was to share my observations from a truely natural deer herd. This herd lives in about a 30sq mile area in a very isolated part of Canada.

I do understand that for most people and hunting areas QDM is a pipe dream. But I don't buy into the idea of, "my neighbors won't do it, so I won't either." Educate yourself on how you can better the herd and then educate them.

In Wisconsin, we had to do just that. I have cousins that would argue with me for hours. But I remained calm and gave them the facts. After a few years, they finally see the light and want a healthier herd.

If you believe QDM (remember, not QAM) is a good idea, then do something about it. Things don't change overnight.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Dan,
Great post. Very informative.

Sylvan,
You would shoot does to get back to where the herd should be or would be if we hadn't had bad management practices in the past. Once it is back in balance, then your point is correct.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

The idea behind shooting does older than 1 1/2 stems from the fact that you will shoot less buck fawns.

Germ, the fawns that you want to start over withwere born from the older does therefore they have the same genes.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

It's not excactly that easy...old habits die hard.

One thing that a lot of hunters hate is somebody else telling them how they should be hunting.

I do think that if excecuted properly the whole QDM thing will net results, but not everybody is in a postion for the philiosophy to work. I will pass on alot of smaller bucks, but I don't expect them to grow up, I do it to save tags on something bigger.

And.. I still don't buy that 'healthier herd' mumbo jumbo. Guys just want a better chance at seeing big racked deer, why cant people call it what it is??

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Mike we feel the same, you can do the survey online now which is better.
Anterless Harvest not doe I messed up., we all know about the button buck factor.[8D]

_dan very good post by the way

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

I'm sorry to say that this is a myth. I thought the same thing for a long time, until I saw it with my own two eyes. I find a lot of wolf kills each year and there are just as many mature bucks as there are does and fawns. Wolves can kill a full grown moose,a mature buck is no match.

Where did I say that we should target mature bucks over does? You're right, I didn't.

The idea is to let the mature bucks do most of the breeding. This can only be achieved when the buck to doe ratio is relatively close. Now I know someone is going to say that we should be shooting the younger bucks so that the mature ones can breed. Please refrain, you only show your naiveness. If the buck to doe ratio was in check the younger bucks have almost zero chance of breeding the does. The more mature bucks would, and do, kick thier arse and prevent them from doing so.

Please remember, we are talking about QDM and not QAM. It's not about antler size, its about the quality of the herd.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Yes true, but you want to breed them withthe best bucks, so the gene pool gets back to normal for the area. Not perfect, just a start if you are in a really bad over populated area.

A guy who runs a ranch on Oklahoma did this, he bought some land was really over populted. He did this to get his herd back to normal. The easy way would have been to "buy some genes", but he came up with this practice. Not something you pratice every year. He did so until he had a healthy herd again.

Just another way to look a herd management.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Let me make one more point about the isolated herd that I am talking about. Most of the bucks have no potential to grow a monster rack. Every year I see lots of 4.5+ yr old bucks that will never amount to anything other than a 100-120" eight point. But, they are the ones who have survived the harsh winters and the predators and have genetically grown the larger bodies. These are the deer (no matter the size of the rack) that are going to be and should be doing the breeding.

I'll say it one last time! We're talking about QDM and not QAM.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

I understand what your saying. You contend that natures way is more random. It's not selective. Got it. So like I said.... "It seems inconsistent to me to argue that natures way is not selective and then propose a highly selective hunting strategy to more closely "resemble the natural world". What you propose is selective. You want to target mature buck and females. Isn't that right? That's what I said you saidin my previouspost! So even if I agreed (which I don't) that natures way is not selective, I still wouldn't agree that your proposal is a good thing as far as being "natural" is concerned. Imo a better way to get to what you perceive as "natures way" would be to always shoot the first deer you see that you can legally take.

Where did I say you said that? You're right, I didn't.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Assuming the ratio is out of whack you wouldn't really need to disproportionatly taget doe to return to a more "natural" state. One of the main reasons deer survive as a species is because they are prolific breeders. They survive even where hunting pressure is heavy because they are realy good at replacing themselves. In only a few years from now, nearly all the deer in the woods will be deer that haven't been born yet so even in areas where it is thought that the buck to doe ratio is in bad shape if we were to sudenly institute a strategy that would insure a random kill, it wouldn't be very long before thenatural statewould be reached.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

"If the buck to doe ratio was in check the younger bucks have almost zero chance of breeding the does." -Dan

I have seen numerous studies that show that is incorrect. The 1.5 year olds breed almost every doe. Now almost every doe has twins and almost every time these twins are from different fathers. The mature bucks will breed the does as well, however, the young ones get their shot too. It is like elk in that way. The herd bull will breed almost all of his cows, but the satellites get in there and breed when the big boy isn't looking or is busy elsewhere.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

I think I found it.

Sylvan, its pretty black and white. If you want to be one of the few who want to argue with every post of this nature, then go ahead. But at least READ what I am saying.

p.s. I will not turn this into a pissing contest. I have seen it with my own eyes and am giving you my findings. As soon as you you the same, instead of having an idea or a theory, we can discuss this on common ground.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Dan,

I appoligize! ... what I meant to say was

it was a typo.Sorry about that. I didn't go back and check what I typed, I justassumed I said it correctly. My fingers didn't put down what was in my head. The point remains the same though. You are proposing a selective strategy.

I'm not arguing your perception that natures way is not selective. I don't agree but I'm not arguing the point. My point is again...

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

No problem!

Please explain to me why you think its bass ackwards.

I don't belive so.

Take a look at all the agriculture and supplemental feeding there is. In the natural world, the mature bucks have a much greater chance of dying after the rut is over. In today's world, this does not happen nearly as much as it probably should because of the abundance of man made/grown food for them to regain their fat supplies before winter. In addition, the winters are nowhere near what they used to be.

RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
 

Because imo natures way is to make the easiest kill and the mature buck would be the most difficult. Theoretically the inexperienced 1 1/2 year olds would even be easier than an adult doe. Probably not all doe but many would be older wiser and maybe even a little bigger and stronger.