WorthlessNut

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hey, Ohio no longer has an archery season, we have a Crossbow season.

In 1989 more deer where taken with an X bow than Compound,long and recurve combined.

Last year the number of people using X bow to hunt deer in Ohio was almost 60%.

I'm just happy that the X bow folks let me use my archery gear in their season.

Yep, this sucks, big time. -- JMHO<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>


How can it suck if you have 119 days to use a longbow,recurve or compound bow?

Let see if there was 458,00 tags bought that means that there was 274,800 crossbow hunters. The last statement by The Div of wildlife there was 70,000 xbow hunters and 30,000 that used both crossbow and longbow(meaning all recurve,longbow and compound). Sorry dont see 60%

litework

Stealth_Force and AK are right on the money with their statements. When I started archery (for the second time), I did so because I wanted something a little more challenging than a rifle. If I felt a crossbow was more challenging than a handgun, I would have purchased one. I chose a compound bow over traditional because my pro shop doesn't have traditional archery equipment, and compounds are much more fun to &quot;tinker&quot; with in my opinion. Am I selfish? Yep. I love archery. I encourage everyone to participate in the sport, target or hunting. It is my belief that every person who uses a crossbow is one less person who would have otherwise chosen archery.

My experience this fall is a clear example of why any bow is harder to hunt with than a crossbow...Full draw on a mature doe waiting for a good broadside shot. A large buck appears about 50 yards away and he's taking his time getting to my shooting lane. I can't hold my bow back forever so I slowly let-off the bow in a manner that will not spook the doe who is now ten yards from my stand. I almost get the tension relaxed when my release pinches my arrow nock. The arrow falls to the ground...no buck, no doe, and a dissappointed hunter who has since switched to a string loop.

JRW

AK,

You'd better save that. In another month when old SC starts another one of these threads, somewhere, he'll forget every word you just said and cry when you won't humor him again.

BTW, facts and common sense won't work with him either. He'll just chase that old tail again. Case in point...

<font color=red>&quot;...Arkansas is 5 months, liberal bag limit with does, the woods are never crowded and we allow crossbows, have for over 30 years I believe.&quot;</font id=red>

30 years? LOL!!! This guy wants to discuss &quot;facts&quot; and doesn't even know the &quot;facts&quot; about his own state? This is toooooo funny. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Hint: Ohio was the first state to allow crossguns carte blanc in archery seasons, and that was LESS THAN 30 years ago. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good grief, he really needs to do his homework next time. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

JRW

stealthycat

AK -

<i[size=2' I DO, however, expect bowhunters to use hand drawn, hand held BOWS in the ARCHERY season. If nothing else, the movement and physical effort required to pull a bow shot off at game is a critical point as to whether or not the hunter spooks the game.[/i][/size=s2]

So drawing the bow IS a big factor ? I submit that being able to draw with a mechanical release and hold for a couple of minutes at 85% letoff is also a big factor. The comparison holds - crossbows are easier to shoot than compounds, lets not allow them in archery season. BUT, compounds are easier than longbows/recurves, right ?

Ypur argument then goes on by saying ...

<font size=2>As to more hunters being a good thing... In reality, allowing crossbows will likely not generate many NEW hunters. Allowing crossbows in the ARCHERY season does stand to generate an enormous amount of existing rifle hunters to 2-season crossbow converts however. In a state of 1,000,000 hunters and 250,000 bowhunters, there is the potential for 750,000 additonal converts to find their way into the ARCHERY season. Bowhunters are already limited to a 6-week fall and 2-week winter ARCHERY seasons, with a one buck limit and up to 3 doe tags in most of the state. (Though realistically, most counties sell out of their alloted doe tags after the first or second round of tag issuance, leaving the hunter with 1 buck and 1 or 2 doe tags.) Add to that mix that we have game commissioners who openly declare their desire to shorten the bow season, and there exists a very real danger of the ARCHERY season becoming shortened if deer kills rise in the ARCHERY season.&quot;</font id=size2>

I agree here. In fact, I watched my first Fred Bear movie the other night and the first thing Bear Archery said was &quot;become a two season hunter&quot; - right there at the beginning of the movie. I have seen strong arguments to support a &quot;declare your weapon&quot; type licensing, and I think that argument has good points. However, with a state wide bag limit, the G&F has determined how many deer that ned to be taken (lets assume here the G&F KNOWS what they're doing !). They factor in the two season hunters, right ? In Arkansas this is not an issue really, I guess in some states it is. Arkansas has not seen the huge flock to archery season through leglaized crossbows. We have lengthy rifle seasons where some states are muzzleloader only. Maybe this also is a factor then ?

If this reason is the core of your argument, then I ask that you show me where legalized crossbows have led to shorter archery seasons, smaller bag limits or something to that nature.

<font size=2>In PA, flintlock hunters are also battling the cap 'n ball and in-line shooters trying to squeeze their way into the winter flintlock season under similar guises. I feel for them as well.</font id=size2>

Inline muzzleloaders are one shot rifles with the technology they have. Side by side with an old flintlock and they don't look anything like each other. Compare a compound and longbow the same way and its easy to see the comparison I am trying to make. Huge differences in technology from construction to performance. Should inlines be allowed ? They ARE what muzzleloaders are today. They are simply easier to use, better perfomring weapons, not unlike a compound is to a longbow/recurve.

<font size=2>...we should only expect that trivial things like ARCHERY hunting seasons are made to make &quot;easier&quot; to accomodate those who lack inclination to face even recreational challenge.</font id=size2>

I agree with much you say, however this last part would mean that compounds are so much &quot;easier&quot; compared to longbows/recurves - proven by the sheer numbers of people who use them if nothing else - that perhaps a seperate season for them should apply ?

AK - I will say this. Prove to me that leglaizing crossbows will reduce archery season and bag limits, that they will intrduce a bunch of two sport hunters and flood archery seasons to a point that the G&F has to retool archery season and I will agree that a seperate season need to be looked at for them. THAT would be evidence that crossbows are not an addition to archery, but rather a counter productive influx based on equipment only that has a negative impact on archery overall.

dmw - <font size=2>Hey, Ohio no longer has an archery season, we have a Crossbow season.

In 1989 more deer where taken with an X bow than Compound,long and recurve combined.Last year the number of people using X bow to hunt deer in Ohio was almost 60%. I'm just happy that the X bow folks let me use my archery gear in their season. </font id=size2>

Can you give me the stats on how many compound kills and compond hunters compared to longbows/recurves ? Apples to apples, is it not true then that as crossbows are easier to use vs compounds, compounds are easier to use vs recurves/longbows ? Is it not true that compounds 5 years ago dominated your OH archery season even more so than crossbows do today ? Do you see the comparison ?

arrowsmit - A popular opinion, however, is the seperation of archery equipment then all about the mechanics of the weapon ? C'mon, an arrow is an arrow - some people shoot 24&quot; arrows out of their compounds, only a couple of inches longer than a crossbow bolt - not a significant difference. A crossbow is used under 25 yards as are most compounds, recurve and longbows. Muzzleloaders, especially inlines, are much farther reaching, they use black powder and a bullet, the crossbow does not, they kill by tissue damage and shock, not by way of broadhead like a crossbow - not a good comparison.


bayonets - Do you mean that how people can look at a Lazzeroni topped with a Swarovski laser rangefinde scope shooting out to 600 yards side by side with an old Winchester 30-30 open sights and see both as hunting guns legal in open rifle season ? Do you mean a flint lock compared to a Knight muzzleloader, stainless steel, thumbhole grip, shooting 44 cal bullets with a sabot and 3 pellets (150 grains) fired off by shotgun primers and topped with a 4x12 Zeiss - both legal muzzleloaders ? Do you mean the perspective of seeing side by side a 1966 Bear Kodiak shooting POC shafts and glue on Zwickeys side by side with a HC carbon riser bow, mechnical release, 85% adjustable one cam technology, SIMS stuf all over it, shooting a carbon arrow 340 FPS tipped with a titanium expandale broadhead, fiber optic sights etc etc and seeing both as legal archery equipment ?








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Stealth_Force

The number of deer taken with a crossbow (or lack there of) does not give an accurate indication of it's ease of use...just the number of crossbow shooters who acctually saw a deer in range!
(I though this might have gotten through...guess not)
WHO CARES IF YOUR HOLDING BACK ONLY 85%??? YOU STILL HAVE TO DRAW AND HOLD THE BOW BACK!!! You can shoot a crossbow 1 handed THERE they ARE THAT MUCH DIFFERENT! The ONLY difference in compounds vs. trad is that a compound has SOME let off.
WHAT DOES BEING EASIER HAVE TO DO WITH IT IF YOU DO THE SAME THING??? You draw, hold, then release. What is SO different SC?
This WILL be my last post on this unless SC has a logical statement to make.

stealthycat

litework - <font size=2>Am I selfish? Yep. I love archery. I encourage everyone to participate in the sport, target or hunting. It is my belief that every person who uses a crossbow is one less person who would have otherwise chosen archery.</font id=size2>

I don't know about that being selfish, but with that opinion, then you understand why some recurve/longbow shooters feel compounds should be in a seperate season too, right ? Every compound hunter is one less that could be enjoying a recurve/longbow, right ?

Stealth_Force -

<font size=2>WHO CARES IF YOUR HOLDING BACK ONLY 85%??? </font id=size2>

UH, Pope and Young Club for starters - you know, the Club that is the icon of Archery ?

<font size=2>WHO CARES IF YOUR HOLDING BACK ONLY 85%??? YOU STILL HAVE TO DRAW AND HOLD THE BOW BACK!!! </font id=size2>

With a mechanical release, with sights and stabilizers, with huge letoffs, with ultra powerful, high techonology limbs/riser/cams with a fancy rest etc etc. Drawing the bow back then is the ONLY criteria to seperate then in your opinon ? If/when a bow is made that you only draw 10&quot;, thats cool too huh ? Or a draw lock that in essence holds the bow right at full draw, and you only draw 3&quot; ? Those hypothetical bows would fit your &quot;archery&quot; definiton and be legal then ? Hypothetically ?


<font size=2>The ONLY difference in compounds vs. trad is that a compound has SOME let off</font id=size2>

Are you sure ? I though cables, riser material, radical design, let off, cams, mechnical release, sights, scopes, stabilizers, rests etc etc were different too ? Of course they are. You listed the ONLY thing different between crossbows and compounds. List all the SIMILARITIES and you'll see a huge list on one side, on the other a very small one.

People shoot compounds because they are better weapons and easier to use. In fact, they are better and easier than a compound in many respects, and a whole lot funner to use. But IF your case revolves around the drawing thing, then surly as a crossbow is different from a compound, the drawing, letoff and long holding time of a compound (not to mention the host of other huge difference in accessories, attachments and performance) is vastly different than a recurve/longbow. Is this not correctly stated ?


Stealthycat's Photo's

JRW

Stealth_Force,

You're right...but accessories versus BOWS was already addressed many posts ago. How quickly he forgot that sights, releases, and stabilizers were invented long before the first compound saw the market. Like a flash, he forgot that those SAME accessories can, are are at times, mounted to recurves. Lest we forget those machined aluminum riser recurves with the carbon limbs that some folks hunt with. He's also convienently overlooked the fact that compounds are routinely shot withOUT sights, releases, or stabilizers. Now he's forgotten all about it, and is right back where he started.

See what I mean about chasing the tail? Round 'n round we go.... [:v]

JRW

Deleted User

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litework

Stealthycat...I can appreciate you using the Socratic Method to guide me to your answer, but I categorize compound bows and traditional gear as archery equipment; my category is broad but does not include the crossbow. Maybe it's because I live in Virginia where the crossbow is banned. Maybe it's because a preloaded crossbow with a scope is more effective than my .454 handgun (without a scope) at distances under 30 yards. The differences between a crossbow and compound/traditional archery are great. The differences between traditional archery and compound archery are minute when comparing the vast differences of the crossbow and compound/traditional bows. We do not divide rifle season into magnum rifle vs. sub-sonic rifle season, and I think you could make a stronger argument there. I appreciate your love for traditional archery, but I already pay more than I like to spend for an archery license and the general firearms license (I use a bow during firearm season). Please don't make me fork out another 20 bucks for a seperate traditional season, as well.

TxCowboy

JRW, thanks for acknowledging my post but you still didn't state your reasons for your opinion on this issue. To be honest, I'm not sure you've even stated your exact opinion on the issue, much less your reasoning. You keep referring to how you've stated all of this on many forums etc? Forgive me but I nor have 99.9% of the other people in this debate have read your opinions on the other forums, where ever they are. So maybe your reasons for not wanting crossbows in archery season isn't for selfish reasons, I'll buy that. I'd just like to know what they are, that's all.


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Hunting the Piney Woods of Deep East Texas.