Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
11-24-2006, 05:24 PM
#11
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Land of Oz
Posts: 9,626
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
ORIGINAL: Sylvan
Without question, the portion of deer hit and not recovered in bowhunting is much higher than it is in gun hunting. That's just the reality of the sport. So the dilema sooner or later becomes how to justify the certainty of inflicting more pain and suffering vs. less should should bow hunting be eliminated. I don't have a good answer for that. All I know is that I love bow hunting with a passion and would be sick if it were ever to be banned. I'm not however going to pretend that it is necessary because it isn't. I'm also not going to pretend that the rate of cripling losses are anywhere near as low as in gun hunting because they're not. All I can do is my best to maximize the possibility that I make a good high percentage shot and accept the fact that now and then things will go wrong. I can only take solice in the idea that all things considered, natures way offers a far cruler scenario.
Without question, the portion of deer hit and not recovered in bowhunting is much higher than it is in gun hunting. That's just the reality of the sport. So the dilema sooner or later becomes how to justify the certainty of inflicting more pain and suffering vs. less should should bow hunting be eliminated. I don't have a good answer for that. All I know is that I love bow hunting with a passion and would be sick if it were ever to be banned. I'm not however going to pretend that it is necessary because it isn't. I'm also not going to pretend that the rate of cripling losses are anywhere near as low as in gun hunting because they're not. All I can do is my best to maximize the possibility that I make a good high percentage shot and accept the fact that now and then things will go wrong. I can only take solice in the idea that all things considered, natures way offers a far cruler scenario.
And the rate of "crippling losses" "vs gun-hunting?"
I think that the overwhelming majority of bowhunters strive to kill cleanly and quickly via a broadside shot at a stopped animal.
I can also say with certainty that guns hunters often shoot at running deer. A deer can move very swiftly, as we all know, and I think I'd be safe in saying that the overwhelming majority of gun hunters do NOT practice shooting at high-speed moving objects with a rifle or slug gun. There are more gun hunters than there are bow hunters in many, if not most states. Do the math.
Bottom line is that there are few, if any, reliable stats to backup what you're saying and common sense tells you that your ideas about gun hunters are probably far from the truth.
As to the author's cited article:
The article cited is just a compilation of various types of bull dung. See the quote at the bottom of page two. Utterly ridiculous, in my opinion.
11-24-2006, 05:37 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
ORIGINAL: vc1111
Wow. I cannot help but ask you for documentation of the very first statement here.
And the rate of "crippling losses" "vs gun-hunting?"
I think that the overwhelming majority of bowhunters strive to kill cleanly and quickly via a broadside shot at a stopped animal.
I can also say with certainty that guns hunters often shoot at running deer. A deer can move very swiftly, as we all know, and I think I'd be safe in saying that the overwhelming majority of gun hunters do NOT practice shooting at high-speed moving objects with a rifle or slug gun. There are more gun hunters than there are bow hunters in many, if not most states. Do the math.
Bottom line is that there are few, if any, reliable stats to backup what you're saying and common sense tells you that your ideas about gun hunters are probably far from the truth.
As to the author's cited article:
The article cited is just a compilation of various types of bull dung. See the quote at the bottom of page two. Utterly ridiculous, in my opinion.
ORIGINAL: Sylvan
Without question, the portion of deer hit and not recovered in bowhunting is much higher than it is in gun hunting. That's just the reality of the sport. So the dilema sooner or later becomes how to justify the certainty of inflicting more pain and suffering vs. less should should bow hunting be eliminated. I don't have a good answer for that. All I know is that I love bow hunting with a passion and would be sick if it were ever to be banned. I'm not however going to pretend that it is necessary because it isn't. I'm also not going to pretend that the rate of cripling losses are anywhere near as low as in gun hunting because they're not. All I can do is my best to maximize the possibility that I make a good high percentage shot and accept the fact that now and then things will go wrong. I can only take solice in the idea that all things considered, natures way offers a far cruler scenario.
Without question, the portion of deer hit and not recovered in bowhunting is much higher than it is in gun hunting. That's just the reality of the sport. So the dilema sooner or later becomes how to justify the certainty of inflicting more pain and suffering vs. less should should bow hunting be eliminated. I don't have a good answer for that. All I know is that I love bow hunting with a passion and would be sick if it were ever to be banned. I'm not however going to pretend that it is necessary because it isn't. I'm also not going to pretend that the rate of cripling losses are anywhere near as low as in gun hunting because they're not. All I can do is my best to maximize the possibility that I make a good high percentage shot and accept the fact that now and then things will go wrong. I can only take solice in the idea that all things considered, natures way offers a far cruler scenario.
And the rate of "crippling losses" "vs gun-hunting?"
I think that the overwhelming majority of bowhunters strive to kill cleanly and quickly via a broadside shot at a stopped animal.
I can also say with certainty that guns hunters often shoot at running deer. A deer can move very swiftly, as we all know, and I think I'd be safe in saying that the overwhelming majority of gun hunters do NOT practice shooting at high-speed moving objects with a rifle or slug gun. There are more gun hunters than there are bow hunters in many, if not most states. Do the math.
Bottom line is that there are few, if any, reliable stats to backup what you're saying and common sense tells you that your ideas about gun hunters are probably far from the truth.
As to the author's cited article:
The article cited is just a compilation of various types of bull dung. See the quote at the bottom of page two. Utterly ridiculous, in my opinion.
11-24-2006, 05:52 PM
#13
Host of Hosts
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Erie, Pennsylvania
Posts: 5,780
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
Without question, the portion of deer hit and not recovered in bowhunting is much higher than it is in gun hunting
Can you back this statement up? I think your wrong! There are way more people who hunt with guns vs people who hunt with bows. That in itself would disprove your statement. How many people do you know that says I missed one..."I shot 4 times at 150 yards broadside and I missed" I just got off the phone before logging in to this forum and had those exact words spoken to me by a relative who just returned from a trip to WV. This same person hit a deer last year and we tracked it for hours and did not recover the deer. I was sick. He was not all that concerned. This time he didn't even mention if he looked for hair or blood. So there are slob hunters on both sides. I don't know about you , but almost every Archery hunter that I know spends the whole year shooting their bows with maybe a few weeks off in between seasons 3-D and Indoor Dart(computer) shooting. How many guys do you know that are as serious about efficiency with their guns? Not too many! There are some gun hunters who practice regularly, but nowhere near the numbers as Archery shooters. I see guys at the gun range all the time saying "that's good enough" and the hit a 9 inch pie plate 3 out of 5 times at 100 yards off a bench. That's pathetic if you ask me. So not only archers should prove their shooting ability, but gun hunters too. JMHO
Also VC is correct. Your statement cannot be correct due the the huge numbers advantage of gun hunters vs bow hunters. I do both myself and ALWAYS wait for a shot I know will drop that deer. Never shoot at a moving target.Are guns more powerful and offer a better chance at killing an animal instantly? Of course, but don't forget there still could be a slob hunter at the end of that trigger or release.
11-24-2006, 06:41 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Flushing Michigan
Posts: 2,355
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
The biggest thing this article shows me is the ability of the Anti's to use our own words against us. They quote our magazines, videos, books, and websites. Most of the ammunition they have came from current (or former) bowhunters. Sure they twist our words and manipulate the statistics but the non-hunting public doesn't know that.
So I guess the message is "Watch what you say because there is an Anti out there waiting to use your words against you to ban bowhunting".
That was a real eye opener to me.Hell - they even quoted Fred Bear as saying that "I would guess that at the minimum, two deer are hit
So I guess the message is "Watch what you say because there is an Anti out there waiting to use your words against you to ban bowhunting".
That was a real eye opener to me.Hell - they even quoted Fred Bear as saying that "I would guess that at the minimum, two deer are hit
to get one. I personally know many bowhunters whose average is much worse".
Also, most of the studies they site are from the 1950s and 1960s. I think with the advancements is bowhunting technology, training, and education we've come a long way since then.
11-24-2006, 07:24 PM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Land of Oz
Posts: 9,626
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
Do I need data to support the idea that gun hunters practically never practice shooting at fast moving targets with rifles and slug guns? Well, I guess your request is fair in the wake of mine, but Sylvan, I will tell you, I've been hunting for nearly 4 decades and I've never seen it done. Maybe its different in your area.
Show me your data. Let's talk about it. Surely if it is so commonplace it should be available online for us to discuss.
Are your stats on a per capita basis? In other words, the sheer number of gun hunters vs bow hunters in most states would have to amount to a contradiction of your assertion.
I will remain open to your idea, but I'd like to see the research that you cite.
Show me your data. Let's talk about it. Surely if it is so commonplace it should be available online for us to discuss.
Are your stats on a per capita basis? In other words, the sheer number of gun hunters vs bow hunters in most states would have to amount to a contradiction of your assertion.
I will remain open to your idea, but I'd like to see the research that you cite.
11-24-2006, 08:34 PM
#17
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 242
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
I can count on one hand the number of deer I've lost bow hunting in over 25 years. I don't honestly know how many I've killed, but it's multiple times over that...I know I've killed at least 3 per year for the last 10 years. Very seldom does a deer get out of my sight before it's dead. A double lung shot on a whitetail deer will take it out of this life in about 15 seconds or less. That's quicker than being eaten alive by coyotes or dying of disease or starvation and much more humane.
I practice year round. Most bow hunters I know do the same. None of my friends boast of "hitting a deer". Every bow hunter I associate with searches until he finds his deer. Eventually anyone will lose one for reasons that can not be changed (twigs, deer simultaneously steps at the release, gust of wind, etc). That is the exception, not the norm.
That's my data. These are facts from my bow hunting world.
I practice year round. Most bow hunters I know do the same. None of my friends boast of "hitting a deer". Every bow hunter I associate with searches until he finds his deer. Eventually anyone will lose one for reasons that can not be changed (twigs, deer simultaneously steps at the release, gust of wind, etc). That is the exception, not the norm.
That's my data. These are facts from my bow hunting world.
11-24-2006, 09:22 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
I have never wounded a deer with a rifle. I lost 3 animals with a bow, 2 deer and one pig. One of those was yesterday. Good thing is he will live.
I made what I thought was a perfect shot, but the deer ran off with the whole arrow sticking out and then the arrow fell to the ground. It is obvious I hit the shoulder bone or elbow . I got zero penetration and not a speck of blood on the arrow or broadhead.
I do believe deer lost ratio is higher with a bow. But the overall number would still be lower than the totall number lost by a gun.
I made what I thought was a perfect shot, but the deer ran off with the whole arrow sticking out and then the arrow fell to the ground. It is obvious I hit the shoulder bone or elbow . I got zero penetration and not a speck of blood on the arrow or broadhead.
I do believe deer lost ratio is higher with a bow. But the overall number would still be lower than the totall number lost by a gun.
11-24-2006, 10:32 PM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Animal Rights group report on bowhunting - makes me SICK
Just knowing the are using the inventor of the pod as a source makesthis article suspect, he was trying to get people and states to legalize the pod by stating high wounding rates.