Poaching definded?
 

I'm curious to know how it is that the term "poacher"has cometo apply to somebody that breaks any game law. I had always thought poaching meant to take an animal on land you have no business huntingon, especially land posted "no hunting". Anyway I looked it up and here is the dictionary definition.

Poach:
To trespass on another's property in order to take fish or game.

Poacher:
One who hunts or fishes illegally on the property of another.

So clearly, poaching means some sort of tresspassing has occurred. Just becasue somebody takes an animal in an illegal manner doesn't mean they are a poacher, at least not according to the dictionary definition of the term. So why is it nearly everyone uses it that way? Anybody know? It seems to water down the term to me. According to the way many use it a poacher might simply be somebody who committed some minor violation.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Growing up, I always thought poaching meant a hunter/group of hunters trespassing and killing a protected animal to have a trophy or furs.

I was right but later learned that it doesn't have to be protected or in some far away land. It had more of a broader definition than what I had previously thought.

Your'e right, the term is overly used.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

You can be on public land and be a poacher if you take game out of season.;)

RE: Poaching definded?
 

i think the dictionary may need to be updated, because one does not have to be tresspassing to poach a critter, you can be on public land, like earlyin said or you can be driving down the side of the road.to me, it's any animal that is killed out of season and/or without a property owners permission.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

I guess that's the point isn't it? You do indeed have to be tresspassing to be poaching. That's what it means.Itseems to me that the majority of non hunters use or understand the term correctly. It's hunters that seem to have gotten it wrong over the years. I don't think the dictionary is going to get changed just becauseprimarily hunters (and not all hunters for sure) use the term incorrectly. Anyway, my original question was how is it that it got perverted to mean any game violation?

The term poacher correctly has a pretty severe conotation to the non hunting public. When we hunters use it frivolously to include all kinds of even minor violations it, imo, gives the impression that we are all a bunch of criminals. I really think we should go back to using the term correctly. Calling someone who forgot his back tag and shoots a deer without it in his possession for example is not a poacher yet some would incorrecty argue that he is. I think it's silly at least and potentially harmfull to the image of hunters.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

that's a good pt sylvan.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Why ask the question, Sylvan? Looking for an argument?

You've already made it plain that anyone who disagrees that "poacher" only means someone hunting on private property when they don't have permission, is wrong.

I use the term poacher to describe someone who breaks any game law. If you hunt without a tag, you're poaching. If you're tresspassing and kill an animal on that property, you're poaching. If you're baiting in a state where it is illegal and you kill an animal over that bait, you're poaching.

But obviously you're right and I'm wrong. I'm obviously using the term incorrectly.

Just like our equipment and techniques change over time, so do the defenitions and usages or words. A definition isn't set in stone, you know.

But again, I'm obviously wrong because you (and the dictionary)say so.

If you break a game law, and have an animal in your posession because of that broken law, you're a poacher in my book.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

if your doing something against the law and think your all slick because you think your going to get away with it, your poaching. if you use a gun in bowseason, your poaching ect.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

If I owned 1400 acres and hunted deer out of season and shot them at night with a spot light, shooting several each night, would I not be considered a poacher?

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Sylvan, I stand corrected. I AM WRONG, it won't be the last time either but I still agree with Washington. You take something out of season, your a poacher in my book as well! So there!:D:D:D

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Not at all. I thought I made it pretty clear that I bring it up because I think that incorrectly using the term to include all kinds of minor game violations trivializes it and is ultimatelyharmfull to the sport. Just my opinion. By all means, make up any definition you want I really don't care as I'll probably know what you mean. I would like to point out, however, that words have meanings and the words youuse have consequencesand the public at large doesn't know about your/our peculiar definitions. So just maybe it makes sense to use the term as it is intended to be used and if there is a question all anybody needs to do is look it up.

No not because I say so, just the dictionary. I didn't invent or define the term.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Ok, what I would like to know is what does the law define as 'poaching'. What does the game warden consider poaching? I think that would give us the best answer. I have seen people in a couple of threads now say things like 'well that is what poaching is to me' or 'well that is poaching in my book'. What I want to know is how is poaching defined in THE BOOK. (the LAW book) Also, no offence to Mr. Webster, I don't really care how the dictionary defines it. Dictionaries don't write tickets or take people to jail. Quite frankly, it really makes no difference how you define it. It only matters how law defines it. If you get caught baiting, is the charge poaching or is it something else? I think that may be what the original poster is driving at. Like the difference between robbery and burglary, the offender is still a theif, but the charges are different. This is sure to vary from state to state, but it would be interesting to find out how the law defines it.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Good reply Reacher, I concur. But Sylvan is correct, the dictionary uses the word trespass in reference topoaching. I think a Game Warden calls these other situations game law violations.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

NY state has a neat web site where you can look up laws based on key words. I did a search for the terms poach, poacher and poaching and found no match anywhere. I also searched the DEC game laws and couldn't find the term. I suspect that laws are written for very specific offenses. I'd actually be suprised to find poaching defined in the law. After all, what would be the penalty? Big difference between somebody hunting who forgot their back tag and somebody jack lighting trophy animals from aprivate deer sanctuary. I'd be curious if other states define it. If not then it seems to me that if poaching isn't a legal term thenDan the man Webster is all we've got to go by.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

You do have a point. If there is no 'legal' defenition then where else are we to look? (no offence if you are a Funk and Wagnalls fan ;))

I wonder if killing deer in a high fence area like King Ranch or someplace similar would amount to grand theft. After all, they sometimes get thousands in trophy fees for those animals.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Hey guys, just for the record, in Pa, a Game Warden has no control over a trespasser, that is a Police issue. Only if a game law has been violated does a Warden enter the picture. Just thought I'd throw that in.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Sylvan along with everyone else who has replied is correct. There are probably no wrong answers here so far.

Laws probably don't define "poaching". The laws are more specific and define the acts of "poaching".

Breaking every single game law does not make a poacher, you can break a game law and not actually take an animal. There are so many obscure game laws in the books that most people might break every year and never even know it nor would they be arrested for them.

That being said, Reacher, good reply.

Oh and Sylvan just to bust your chops a little, [8D] ;) while you have that dictionary out, check out the past tense of Define.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Rob, you are ALWAYS on time!:D:D

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Don't know why dictionary you were reading from Sylvan, or if you read far enough.

From my Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition................

.......3 a) to trespass on (private property), esp. for hunting or fishing b) to hunt or catch (game or fish) illegally, esp. by trespassing 4 to take (anything) by unfair or illegal methods; steal --vi.

So it's the illegally part that cinches the deal, covering breaking any game laws such as out-of-season, over limit (even in season), no tag, too small, etc....

Now a humous note - if ever in question as to whether it is poaching - ask a game warden. They usually have pretty good explanations. LOL

RE: Poaching definded?
 

I used the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language that I found on line under Yahoo so anyone can quickly check it out. Here is the complete definition...

VERB:
poached , poach·ing , poach·es
VERB:
intr.

[ol][*]To trespass on another's property in order to take fish or game.[*]To take fish or game in a forbidden area.[*]To become muddy or broken up from being trampled. Used of land.[*]To sink into soft earth when walking.[*]

To take or appropriate something unfairly or illegally.
Sports To play a ball out of turn or in another's territory, as in doubles tennis. [/ol][/ol]
VERB:
tr.

[ol][*]To trespass on (another's property) for fishing or hunting.[*]To take (fish or game) illegally.[*]To make (land) muddy or broken up by trampling.[*]

To take or appropriate unfairly or illegally.
Sports To play (a ball) out of turn or in another's territory. [/ol][/ol]



Clearly, when the context is hunting tresspassing is included in the definition even with the dictionary you are using. You are going all the way to a 4th and less common useageor generalized conotation of the term.Given the context I think your streching at least, though you make a point. IMO, the 1stusage iswhat I think the general public has in mind when they hear the term. They don't associate poaching with somebody who gets afine because they were fishing and didn't have their license displayed properly on their hat. Probably the most common image that is conjured up when poaching is mentioned is that of Robin Hood going on the Sherrifs land to "poach" a deer to feed the poor.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Like Rob said, technically, "no wrong answers here so far.";)

RE: Poaching definded?
 

So Sylvan, allow me to ask your opinion on this scenario.............

I kill a big whitetail buck out of season, on my own property.....or on public hunting land.

In this scenario.........I am NOTa poacher?

Please don`t misunderstand me, I rarely ever use the word "poacher", I am much more colorful in my description of people who knowingly violate game laws.;)

That said, I have been hunting since 1972, and I was a regular at my grandpa`s hunting camp for several years before that. From the first time I ever heard the term "poacher" it has always been used to describe someone killing, or even just attempting to kill an animal out of season, or going beyond legal harvest limits.

What would you call somebody who killed a deer out of season, if you did not call them a poacher?

RE: Poaching definded?
 

As usual on contentious issues, I’m coming down somewhere in the middle. Personally, I consider poaching as “taking game (or fish) using illegal means”. Trespassing is an illegal means – you’re breaking the law in order to get where the deer are. Hunting out of season is an illegal means – you’re hunting when there’s less pressure and when you have no competition, which gives you an unfair advantage. Spotlighting is using an illegal means – you’re doing something illegal to give you an advantage. Sticking dynamite in a salt lick and pushing the plunger when a big buck is licking away is using an illegal means…you get the idea. To my mind, leaving your buck tag in the truck in a state where you’re supposed to tag the deer on the spot it expired is not poaching. It’s an oversight. It didn’t give you an unfair advantage in hunting the deer. Now on to the more philosophical aspects of the discussion.

To Sylvan’s (and others’) arguments: Dictionaries are useful in defining words. I’d say that is their reason for existing. I’d also say that most people would look at the dictionary as the final authority (anyone play scrabble or other word games?). And the first definition is considered the primary one in all of the dictionaries I’ve used. Changing the definition of words does sometimes have significant consequences. I am going to use a drastic example here that might get me in trouble, but I really mean no offense by it. The word “******” originally meant “slave”, without regard to race or skin color, in England, back when white people were slaves there and before there were any significant numbers of black slaves there. Then it meant a black person, and was not necessarily meant derogatorily. Then it became a derogatory term for black person. Now, its meaning and how it is taken depends on the skin color of who is speaking the word. Its original meaning is one of the primary (though not the only) reasons I find it such an offensive word.

To Reacher (and others’) arguments: Words do change (see above). I also think that Sylvan’s post with the various definitions that agree with what you said back up your argument.

All of that said, people mean what they mean when they say what they say. But communication is a two (or more) part transaction. The part of the speaker (or writer) and the part of the listener (or reader). It’s when the speaker/writer’s intention differs from the listener/reader’s interpretation that miscommunication occurs. One reason dictionaries are helpful.

My two cents.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

WOuldnt surprise me. I have heard of people getting charges theft over a $1000 for cleaning out a stocked trout pond, after dark. The farms around here charge approx $4/lbs average 1.5-2lbs a fish.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Interesting, I've been hunting just a little bit longer than you. My first deer season was 1964. Anyway, since then everytime I ever heard the term poacher it was the Robin Hood story or generally associated with people sneaking onto a preseve in Africa or some foreign place to kill some highly valued animal either for a trophy or e.g. a rhino horn or for elephant ivory. It always envolved somebody killing in an area they were'nt supposed to be and always a pretty serious thing. Nothing to do with some trivial game violation. Locally it was somebody hunting on posted property.

Now with regard to what to call somebody who kills a deer out of season or takes more than their limit. Well regardless of where they do it I call them jerks. If they do it on their own property I wouldn't call them a poacher though but certainly guilty of game violations and should be prosecuted. I don't know that thereare specific names for every crime. Just curious, what do you call somebody who purposely drives through stop signs? You certainly wouldn't call them a "speeder" would you? To me poaching is a specific violation not a general one. It means hunting where you are not legally supposed to be hunting. If you're doing that, whether you kill anything or not, I would call you a poacher. If that's not the offense than imo you're not poaching anymore than the guy that went through the stop sign is a speeder.

Anyway, I don't use the term poacher either but it has kind of suprised me for a while now since I've been reading posts here that many use it in a way that has seemed pretty strange to me.It seems to just mean the same thing asgame law violator. I've always thought of it as something more specific and something more severe than, again some trivial violation. That's one of the reasons I brought it up. Oh well, to each his own but when/if you read my posts and you see the term poacher, I will mean the 1st useage of the definition in the dictionary and tresspassing is implied.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

I always considered poaching taking any game animal out of season, without a legal tag that is your own, or on a property which you should not be hunting on for whatever reason.. My only thought on it was when your baiting an animal is it poaching.. I can agree that in most cases if something is taken illegaly then it could be considered poaching but baiting is legal in some states and some areas, or leading up to a season you can sometime bait or feed but it must be removed within a certain ammount of time before hunting season. Whatever the case is I always thought this to be illegal baiting and not poaching but I suppose with the definition being used "loosely" it could cover anything taken outside of the exact law.

As noted in the post that I believe started this I know a few guys that "toss" apples before the season. While I don't do this or agree with it I don't run out and turn them in. I just hunt by the law and feel good when I'm successful at hunting by the rules.
Then again if ya turned in everyone that used corn, peanut butter, apples or even a salt lick then there will be a lot more deer for me to hunt.:D

Honestly though, If I even tried to "bait" I think all I would attract are them darn cows.. lol

Just follow the laws guys, they are there for a reason. No matter what definition you use I will say the one word that covers it all.. ILLEGAL
Call it what you want but if that's words involved then it'll catch up to ya one day...

RE: Poaching definded?
 

As somebody else pointed out. There may not be a poaching charge.

Like the example I used before. To steal. I don't think there is a charge of stealing.

There is

petty theft
grand theft
robbery
buglary
embezzlement
identity theft
and countless others.

They are all stealing.

Perhaps in this case, the type of offense defines the charge. If you are not tresspassing and you are taking game out of season, that might be called one thing. Bating in a no-bait state might be called something else. Tresspassing to take legal game you have a tag for might be called something else. You get my point. The word poaching might apply in all those situations even though the law would not charge you with such.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Sylvan, I had a big reply ready to post, but I had a power outage and my computer shut down.:(

Anyway, I guess the official definition of the word "poacher" is different than whatmany, many people use it for. Myself included.

If you shoot more than the legal limit, you may be a game law violator. If you shoot a deer at night with the aid of a spotlight, or if you kill a deer out of season......you are a poacher in my book.

I guess the PA Game Commission did not read the dictionary either.....;)

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=483&q=152267

RE: Poaching definded?
 

That of course means that poaching is a "general category" of offense. My point has been all along thatpoaching is a very specific offense. Again, according to the primary useage as defined in the dictionary, it is trespassingfor the purpose of taking fish orgame.In other words to use your example it would be analogous to say grand theft, not the general term stealing. I would say the general category would be tresspassing and the type of tresspass would be for the purpose of taking fish or game or in a word, "poaching". Anyway, just my opinion. This has been an interesting discussion. Y'all take care!

RE: Poaching definded?
 

And that is exactly my original point and the reason I started this thread! If fact I used the phrase "nearly everybody" instead of "many, many".Question was, how come?

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Because it fits.

It isn't that hard to understand.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

At this juncture I believe we all pretty much understand each others thoughts on this subject.Now it's getting old!:D:D Intresting post Sylvan.:)

RE: Poaching definded?
 

LOL, after some pretty good contributions to the disucssion by several peoplewho have givenseveral intelligent perspectives, that'sall you've got?My oh my!

I think early in is right. This is getting old. Bye gentlemen.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Obviously you forgot about;

Way to be an ass though. :eek:

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Way to wear your emotions on your sleeve. [&:]

With the exception of your post, I don't think anybody accused anyone else of being wrong. It was a discussion to clarify the term both in connotation and denotation. You stated what defines a poacher in 'your book'. I think he was looking for a legal definition and not just how you felt about it. It doesn't mean you are right or wrong, it just means that you are not the definitive source for the term poacher. I think this whole post has been in the spirit of exploration and learning. Don't ruin that please.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Actually, if you go back and read the initial post again, Sylvan new well and good what the legal definition was. His question was why do hunters use the term poacher to describe things outside that legal definition.

After being told several different answers, he still didn't seem to accept any of it, he proved this by asking again "how come?"

I replied with "Because it fits."

I was then basically told that it wasn't an intelligent response when compared to anyone elses.

And by the way, I've never claimed to be the definitive source for anything, so don't assume thats what I was getting at. Thanks in advance.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

No problem with the "Because it fits" portion of your 2 line reponse. I guess it didn't occur to you that I might have taken issue with the 2nd line. You know, the larger portion of your response that you didn't bother to metnion.

"It isn't that hard to understand."

So you sarcastically insult everybody here who doesn't agree with you as not being intelligent enough to understand your point and then have the nerve to be offended when you're called on it. Wow!

Just maybe people are intelligent enough to understand exactly what you're point is but simply don't agree. Everybody else in the discussion seemed to recognize that simple concept and made some pretty thoughtfull and respectfull comments. That's what I compared your response to. Think about it, and have a great day!

RE: Poaching definded?
 

So when I "poach" eggs what if any game/wildlife laws are being violated. I hope none cuz I really love poached eggs.

RE: Poaching definded?
 

So can anyone tell me what poaching means?:D[:-]:eek:[8D]:D

RE: Poaching definded?
 

Because we, Americans at least, are lazy/sloppy with our language. How come the word "gentleman", which once only meant an owner of land, gentry, but has sense come to mean the ideals of such a person. Or "Cavalier", which used to be a military unit, but came to be understood asa person who displays the same attitude of these military men. Or "decimate", which originally meant "to reduce by one tenth", to now be synonomous with obliterate. Or why does "Bad" mean good? or "cool" mean socially suave? "Poach" has slid into the morass of slang.

To be honest I always viewed poaching by the original definition with the addition of shooting game out of season. What can I say? I'm lazy/sloppy too, I guess.