well the last 3 deer i took i used a muzzy 4 blade 100 deer 1 was at 4 yards from the ground seen him go down didnt track him deer 2 was at 15 yards from a tree went 10 yards and bedded down no blood trail even tho the arrow was soaked in red deer 3 was at 15 yards from the same tree great blood trail it went 45 yards and fell in the creek all three were double lung shots not more than 3 inches from each other on the body all were pass thru of course at that range i did experament with them crimson talons they spin so hard they die at 40 yards the muzzy seems to work great but i bet them expandable work better on long shots