Similar to WHA.
 

I have read most allof the WHA threads and comments and there are two basic things I see that people don't like about the WHA. One is the tranquilizing of the deer and the other is the fact that these people are taking a beloved 'sport' and turning it into nothing more than a money making competition.

Tell me what you guys thing about the Campbell Outdoor Challenge. On this one it is set up pretty much like Bass Masters where they go out and film a hunt. The deer is scored and given pointsand the film is scored and given points and the interview after the hunt is scored and given points.

http://www.illinoisdeerhunting.com/cwcPages/challengeHome.html

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Personnally I don't see anything wrong with it. It looks as though it is a legitimate fair chase hunt. No drugged animals. Equal competition/opportunity for the price you pay. It in no way compares to the WHA that I can see.
I had never heard of it till your post here.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Admittedly, bigbulls, I didn't peruse your link thoroughly. I scanned it quickly and ascertained that the individuals herein do actually hunt. That provides a distinguishing enough difference as to not attract the wrath from the masses that Farbman did.

Now, to your point... my main problem with the WHA is your second summarization: turning a heritage into a money-making venture and losing themeaning of the tradition. If these participants are filming their endeavors to capture the essence of the hunt, therein lies the difference, to me.

When I get time to look at the site you linked to more carefully, I will.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Doesn't this sum up the QDM movement, and account for just about EVERY hunting ranch in the US?? QDM is all about growing big bucks, and big bucks mean "big bucks." Let's then look at any ranch in TX, or anywhere for that matter. Trophy fees.......nothing more than a money making venture, period. OK, I'm done now.

I've seen the Cambell Outdoor Challenge, and while they are at least hunting (and killing, which is part of the hunting equation) the only dude really benefiting from this is John Campbell...( I think it's John, anyway) Just for giggles once, I checked into it. I figured me and Greg could go on and win the thing, but they want to darn much money to enter. He even sells cameras and a starter kit on his website. The dude has figured out how to make money, no doubt.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

To me, QDM has two benefits: growing a healthy herd, of which there are many properties and benefits, and (2) giving the hunter a better chance at obtaining a true trophy, if that's his or her goal.

And, yes... big bucks do mean "big bucks" -- but it changes nothing concerning the essence of the hunt, save the fact that the participant is given better odds at harvesting the trophy of his or her lifetime.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

True enough, and if the participant is willing to assist in a ranch owners money making venture, by all means, have at it. I agree that a healthy deer heard is a benefit of QDM, no question, I still stand by my previous statement that it's MAIN concern is money. You're from the great state of MO, so you know about our recent antler restrictions. I predict this. In a few years, when this has been fully implemented, prices of both resident and non resident deer permits sky rocket. ESPECIALLY non res. Holy moly....sorry dude.....I have done it again, haven't I?? Hijacked another one.....my bad. I'll shut up now.

This gets beat up badly enough as it is....[8D]

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Most Outfitter do a QDM as do we at IMB. Our minimum is 115, which is less than most and we still have folks that shoot smaller bucks. As Greg said, the whole idea of QDM is to improve the herd and give the hunters a better chance to shoot a big buck and that is why they come for the most part. Some just come for the comradre of the camp setting.I have worked for this outfitter for about 4 yrs now and it is Big Buck$ Business. We do provide a quality hunt and access to AAA lodging.

BTW- no trophy fees here.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

I hope we raise it just for Illinois non-residents... until we can work out a reciprocal agreement and make non-residents affordable for the average guy again. Seems just like a couple years ago, I could hunt Illinois for $110...

'Course, Illinois may not give a dang about hunting our herd over here with the quality of their own. Maybe we could ransom our turkey flock to get our non-resident archery permits back in line! [8D]

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Might have to head your way once, deerdust. I'm not against it, I just think that as with most things in life anymore, the purity has been lost by the almighty dollar.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Mobowhuntr - In my opinion yes that statement could sum up most of the "industry." And I think many of us agree that it is getting out of control. I think the WHA is a perfect example of being out of control.

I have posted messages way prior to the WHA that said the same thing - especially about QDM.

From what I've read, I really like the Campbell Outdoor Challenge. It is still man and camera versus nature in a free range and ethical manner.Prizes/Money?? I don't see anything wrong with that here. Think the Drury Brothers aren't raking it in from the Dream Seasons? And I think the average joe hunter enjoys watching that program.

We have to draw a line in the sand when the money, fame, and pressurebegin to override the common values and morality of this tradition we are all so passionate for. Once again, I'll site Jimmy Houston attempting to shoot a drugged deer in a high fence enclosure.[:'(] We cannot stand for it! We must voice our severe disapproval at this outrageously pathetic behavior!The WHA is so much worse that I can't even put it in words.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

LMAO! Greg, I like the way you think!! Sounds only fair to me.....Oh, and let's not forget Iowa....;)

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Come on up, be glad to have you. I hear you about the prices. Ours go up every yr.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

HAZCON, you are absolutely correct. I plead guilty on that one as well. I own and watch more hunting videos than I can even count. Maybe I'm just jealous.....[&:] I wish I could make that kind of money doing what I love......

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Face it guys, there's not one among us that does not enjoy a good hornpornfest... The cambell's challenge looks great to me. Looks alot like Drury's Dream Season, but with a wider field of contestents....

As far as the commercialization of hunting...I'm sorry, but that began a LONG time ago, by the definition that you guys give it... Although I agree, it tends to get way out of hand(ala WHA)... There have always been and will always be someone who gets to make a living, be it modest or not so much modest, doing what they love. Keep it real, keep it ethical, and keep it tasteful, and more power to ya!

If I had the money I'd probably be in the cambell's contest... sounds good to me....

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Big-

Great Point. IT shows how ignorant some of these 'hunters' or moderators are on these types of sites. They cant see the similarities between the two.

Stop being sheep people

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

You got that 100% correct.

They bad mouth one person/ show for turning hunting into a money making competition and the others it is some how perfectly fine.

So now whatI am getting from this is that if the WHA actually killed the animals they were hunting and did it outside a high fence you all would be 100% fine with it and watch the television show. Cause this is exactly what the Dream season and Campbells challenge is.

Personally I feel that if they are going to make hunting a money making competition like Bass Masters did with bass fishingI would much rather it be behind a high fence with home grown deeras opposed to free ranging, wildanimals. Regardlesswether they killed or tranquilized the animals.

That's pretty much been one of my points about the WHA but for some reason people here don't seem to get the correlation between all of it.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Similarities yes. But the mere fact that the Campbells challenge is not perverting the term "Hunting" for its purposes....

The WHA takes basically all of the bad ideas in hunting, combines it with drugs/tranquelizers, and wants to make into a huge sponsered WWF/Basmasters type production.

What's the grand (season total prize) for Cambells, 13 grand I think? Compared with hundreds of thousands of dollars with the WHA. Cambells is small prize, lots of competitors and afterall, it is actually hunting. Farbmans scheme was nothing but a get rich quick scam, masquerading as a "shot in the arm" for bowhunting. As appearances go, I doubt this Cambell Fella is making much in the way of $$(by comparison). I got no beef with a guy making money while hunting.

You act as if the fact that CC is ACTUALLY HUNTING, is a trivial, inconsequential difference.

Without the commercialization of hunting, we'd all be carrying long bows and mil-surp rifles. The few of us that would still be out there. Make no mistake about it, hunting is what it is today because of the commercialization of hunting. My only problem is when people get greedy and over-zealous like Farbman.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Please explain "perverting". The way I see it is a person (hunter)isin persuit of ananimal for the sole purpose of shooting it and winning money and prizes.

So what, Bass MAsters is obviously perfectly acceptable to the sportsman public. So is the WWF.

Again, So what. Nascar's Bush league prizes are much smaller in comparison to Nextel cups prizes. Winnings are winnings regardless of what they ammount to. Is murder not murder if I kill just a single perosn or do I have to kill 10 people for it to be considered bad enough for life in prison? Just like 13 grand really isn't enough money to make the participants unethical and perverted hunters but a hundred grand is. BULL CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!

No I am not. It is nothing more than a prize winning competition that requires a person shootthe biggestanimal in order to win. Just like the WHA.



Honestly, is everyone here that incredibly blind, ignorant, or just plain refuses to see that the "WHA" already exists, justunder other names. Seriously, Wake up and pull your heads out of the dirt. If you are all going to come down so hard on the WHA then get out there and do the same to the others out there doingalmost identicalthings concerning hunting.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

I'm still not crazy about the commercialized aspect of it , but at least they aren't needlessly risking the safety of the animals or trying to promote some fishy "catch and release" type garbage . It sounds about like the shows you see on tv to me , except now it's a contest .

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Was just giving this a bit of thought while cruising around on my lawn letting my tractor cut some grass for me... (just a very small bit; I was trying to relax... ;))

I think the reason I don't view it in the same light is that the other enterprise you pointed out, Big Bulls, (Campbell's, was it?) doesn't purport to speak for the industry and to attempt to portray itself to the masses as representative of hunting. That's one of the biggest travesties of that fiasco called the WHA, and why it would allow anti-hunting sentiment to take an even stronger hold.

One portrays itself as hunting, when it's not. The other is merely a competition revolving around hunting. Therein lies the difference.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Hunting is the putting of food on the table.... Do predators hunt for the fun of it? If you're darting deer to put them to sleep to take a picture, it's not hunting. CC is free-ranging AND fair-chase and is by all definitions, HUNTING. The WHA is not.CC is the judging of a teams ability to put a trophy deer HUNTon camera.

Why does Hunting warrant comparison with NASCAR? Or BassMasters for that matter? Are you telling me that a deer is no more a cognizant animal than a fish, or no more elusive a goal than driving 500 times around a circle?

If you dont see the difference now, you never will. You are the blind and ignorant one. You wake up and pull your head out of..... .... the dirt...(see, I can play word games too!)



VERY well put Greg...

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Hunting-
n. [ol][*] The activity or sport of pursuing game. [/ol] Hmm....No where does it mention 'putting food on the table' in that definition... Can everyone just drop these STUPID attempts to reason with Campbells and not the WHA.

No wonder people think the hunting community is 'ignant'

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

EXACTLY my point regrarding QDM and "Trophy Ranches." It's for the sole purpose of making money, it's just painted a different color. BUT, I am just as guilty as everyone. I BUY my bow, I BUY my arrows, I BUY my rest, heck, I BUY almost everything I use to hunt. So if we really wanted to split hairs, here, the only "acceptable" hunting would be done by hand made bows, arrows, fishhooks made of bone, knives and broadheads made of rock, and the like. But we don't, most of us anyway.

It comes down to a question of ethics. Something can be perfectly legal, but not ethical at all. There is no rule that says I can't shoot a turkey out of the roost, as long as it is legal shooting time, but it's considered unethical. QDM isn't unethical, it's just not totally honest. WHA IMO is unethical. God put these critters on earth for us to hunt and EAT, not torture.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

I'm glad to see that there are at least a couple of people that see things for what they really are.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Jmonster... we like to keep our discussions civil in these parts. Bigbulls brought up what was to him a valid point. We are in the process of discussing it like adults. No reason for the childish remarks thrown in. There are most assuredly some who would ask that we drop the stupid attempts to compare Campbells WITH the WHA.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Hunting is the practice of pursuing animals to capture or kill them for food, recreation, or trade in their products.

Like I said, by all definitions, Hunting

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

I new posting to these forums, and learned much about the WHA through reading posts here. I continually see posts relating the WHA to Bassmasters, or High Fence (enclosure) hunting. While I am clear in my opposition to the WHA it has nothing to do with them hunting behind a fence, although I do not agree with that form of hunting either.

The simple analogy being made between tournament fishing and hunting is ridiculous! I can only assume many hunters are also fishermen (as am I), so I would ask - WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU RIPPED YOUR BAIT/LURE OUT OF THE WATER BECAUSE THE FISH ABOUT TO BITE IT WASN'T THE TROPHY YOU WANTED??? There is nothing about fishing that is HUNTING! Hunting is the selective decision to harvest an animal in the cleanest most humane manner possible! (at least it should be).

If hunting was fishing the WHA would be the closest you could get to it. Basically trank every animal you can and upon closer inspection determine if its the one you want to keep - then kill it!

What concerns me the most is that you cannot provide people an indiscriminat, no-consequencemeans by which to drop an animal which could be worth potentially thousands of $ and tell me that they are going to be concerned with how they do it. When you dart an animal with drugs, you need only hit the animal, where you hit it - not that important. So don't think for a sec we won't see some very bad representative shots being taken (unless edited out), and what does that do for our sport. Young hunters learn from watching TV and they see a guy take a head-on shot, or poor angle shot - they think Hmmmm, guess thats a good shot!

The fact is there are many reasons to dislike what the WHA represents, but ultimately you can not make an argument for the WHA using tournament fishing as a representation. That dog just won't hunt!

While you could argue about Campbell's or Drury's shows being similar, those shows still represent the selective harvest aspect, andthe Drurysrip people for taking questionable shots. And while I have not seen Campbells, Drury's show represents fair chase hunts, so I have no problem with their promotion of products and methods. If they were a high fence enclosed hunt I just wouldn't watch it.

You can't vote private enterprise up or down - you do it with your financial support. When enough public opinion hits the wallets of private enterprise - they listen, which is obviously what has happened to the sponsors of the WHA.

While there are a number of issues raisedin thisthread - all of which are debatable in their own rights - I have yet to see a post which makes a valid point supporting the WHA. If the WHA was a show where the contestants were required to make a clean killing shot on a broadside or quartering away animal using acceptable and LEGAL hunting means I don't think I would have a problem with it. But if it was done in a high fence environment, I still wouldn't watch it.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

First of all, the Campbell Outdoor Challenge is a filming competition not a hunting competition. Last year, the first and second place prizes were won by hunter/cameramen teams who had successfully harvested two does on film. The team that manged to get the only successful buck harvest on film actually took third. In this competition, the cameraman has the ability to make a significant amount more points than the hunter can possibly make. Also, the $13,000 in prizes is split among the top three teams in the competition. With a $3,750.oo entry fee, the best anyone can hope for, is to actually be able to pay for their trip, and therefore, get a free hunt out of the deal.
Now, my biggest problem with the WHA is the fact that ALL of the "hunting" is going to have to be in enclosures. Animals injected with the Xylazine/Telazol mixture are not safe for human consumption for at least thirty days.This makesfree range "hunting" impossible as you could not be sure that the drugged animal would not be legally harvested by another hunter in the area. The drugs that are used are prohibited for unlicensed individuals to use and therefore, the entire operation is going to have to be supervised by a veterinarian. I don't know about you guys, but I've been hunting since I was eight years old and have never once had my own vet accompany me on one of my hunts. Maybe you have. These things in my mind completely separate the WHA's way of "hunting" completely separate from the hunting thatwe have all grown up doing. If the WHA would promote their "sport" as something else other that hunting, it would not bother me as much as it does. Simply put, it's nothing like real-world hunting.
As far as your comparison of this with Bassmasters, I do understand your point. However, to me, the fact that Bassmasters tournaments are held on public water, where every Tom, Dick, and Harry can, and do fish makes them a legitimate challenge. The best of the best are going to come out on top, consistently catching more and bigger fish than the average person, though they have no real advantage over them, except experience, patience, and the drive to be there. The darting of pen raised deer in small enclosures is not something that everybody has access to. The deer are not pressured and, truth be known, in many cases, will probably tame, at least to some extent. This is not the hunting that everyone has access to and will give extremely unrealistic expectations of hunting to newcomers. And yes, I realize that the majority of other hunting shows now on the air are filmed in enclosures and are not realistic. I don't like them either.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

HuntingNet sponsored a team for one of Campbell's Outdoor Challenges. ;)

This particular Challenge was more like fishing than deer hunting. :D

http://www.huntingnet.com/fieldjournal/fieldjournal_detail.aspx?nID=419

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

The whole point of this thread is to enlighten people.

The big reasons that people said they were against the WHA in previous threads ammounts to only a few.

#1. The biggest reason seemed to be that the WHA was turning hunting into nothing more than a money making competition. That hunting was sacred to us all and that this should not be allowed. Someone here referenced that it was only about 13,000 dollars in prize money so it wasn't the same. Prize money is prize money, I don't care if it's a million dollars or a thousand. The people are there to win a competition, win money, win a free hunt, etc... etc... The promoters of the competition are in it to make money. If they couldn't they wouldn't be doing it. In these aspects they are the same.

Shaft, it really does not matter if the perosn filming can make points or not, the whole competition is about filming a hunt. Big bucks killed earn more points than does killed. Big bucks filmed earn more points than does filmed. Killing a deer earns more points than not killing a deer. Don't make an ettempt to sugure coat it. It IS a competition about killing big bucks.

#2. The second biggest reason was the drugging. I am not going to argue about the drugging causeI think it is also absurd. However, I find it no more 'wrong' than fishing for the sole purpose of the sport of fishing and not keeping the fish to eat. IE... Bass Masters, etc...

#3. High fence hunting. Not my cup of tea but thousands of people do it every year and we all watch it on T.V. and it is 100% legal.




Basically what I get out of all of this is that these kinds of competitionsare ok with everyone if the money is kept to a small ammount (less than $20,000), [&:]you actually kill the animal, and that it is free ranging. Not a whole heck of a lot of differance if you ask me.Personally, I would prefer to have this kind of competition behind a high fence rather than free ranging animals.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

#1 It's not about the amount of money awarded in any competitive event people have a problem with - if that was the case no one would watch professional sports! Be real it wouldn't matter to anyone who opposes WHA if the prize money was $1 or $1M dollars - its not the money its the method of acquiring it that bothers people.

#2You find drugging dear or other game animals no more wrong then "catch-and-release" fishing??? Sorry not even close to a comparitive there. See my earlier post if you don't understand the difference between fishing and hunting.

#3High fence hunting is done, it is legal, and while you may watch shows that hunt in that method - please do not include me because I do not.

and your last point that the WHA is notmuchdifferent then a show that would pay out less, actually kill the hunted animal, and do it in a fair chase environment - well you made 3 comparitives and as far as I can tell they are polar opposites?

Guess if you told your car dealer you were looking for a Black SUV with 4WD and he showed up with a White VW Bug you would say "Close Enough for ME?"

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Bigbulls, this sentence explains my entire feelings on the matter.

"One portrays itself as hunting, when it's not. The other is merely a competition revolving around hunting. Therein lies the difference." - me.

I could care less how much money is involved, or if its held within fences or not. I don't want some idiot like Farbman conning the non-hunting world into thinking that the hunting community is letting him step up to the plate as our spokesman and saviour of our sport.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

I will second that!

I don't care if the WHA had zero prize money, was televised on PBS, and only "make a wish" children were allowed to participate. I would still not support it. It is an absurd organization that is "portraying itself as hunting." (well put Greg)

We have offered solutions in past discussions of WHA and none of them (that I've read) had to do with less money or prizes.
They were: No Tranqualizers, No Drugging of any kind, No Pens, and make it Fair Chase.
We have, from the very beginning, suggested they use cameras if they don't want to kill the animals.

Then it could be classified as revolving around hunting. No difference than Dream Season or C.C. Heck, I'd sign up for that.

But to intentionally promote the harrassment of penned up and drugged animals to a national audience and try to pass that off as hunting will never be acceptable.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

The comparison to Bassmasters has been made here a few times, so I have a question. If the WHA isn't hunting because it's drugging the animals and not killing them, is fishing not considered "fishing" if I turn loose every bass I keep?? Is it only fishing if I kill it and eat it?

Yeah, I know, not exactly comparing apples to apples here. There are no drugs involved in fishing, but basically it's sort of the same, right? I mean, your "catching" the animal, but w/ drugs and not a hook, right? I dunno, just something I started mulling over.

But I also stick w/ a statement in my last post......God put these animals here for us to kill and EAT, not torture.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

good points yall. MoBowhuntr brings up a good point.

and please dont bombard him with hate mail because he doesnt AGREE with your idea of HUNTING?! jeez, its disgusting how people try to draw the line on what they call hunting and not.

WHy cant you make the comparison to fish? are deer that much more higher beings? That is the most ludicrous arguement I have ever heard! You can throw that out the window.

In my opinion, 'money' is the most irrevlevant reason to bash the WHA. My real tiff right now is that they are hunting on 200 acre plots of land? isnt that right? fill me in guys

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Yes they are that much more higher beings.
Would you compare a worm to your Mother?
How about all the bugs you kill with the windshield of your car??? So is driving a car hunting??
Where has the common sense gone?

It is scary to think that these super geniuses are walking around the woods with weapons. [:'(]

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

We absolutely agree on this point. Again, if it were merely a competition revolving around hunting, I could care less. Then, it would have to stand on its own merit as to whether the public -- namely the hunting community, because that would be its target audience -- would accept it as a viable product.

As I said earlier, it's the fact that this other fiasco is attempting to "represent" hunting and to be our "savior" is where my concerns lie.

Again, I repeat what is quicklybecoming mydefinitive thoughtfor this discussion: "One portrays itself as hunting, when it's not. The other is merely a competition revolving around hunting. Therein lies the difference."

I can't make it any plainer than that.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

Greg, So far you are the only one that is making any kind of sense. However, I still have to disagree with the WHA not hunting. By definition they are doing exactly that. Your personal feelings on what hunting should be is something only that person can decide andI respect that but make no mistake bout it............ they are hunting.

I also happen to agree with you that the WHA is crap but that isn't the pointI am trying to make to everyone here.

All of these are competitions that involve shooting an animal for score and winning prizes or money. This was, by a large margin, the biggest reason people gave in previous threads why they didn't approve of the WHA. Now I see here that isn't so much a problem.



As far as deer being higher beings than fish I would have to say that they aren't and it would depend on the sensory organs that you are talking about. A fish can sense a wounded fish from a very long ways off. A shark can sense a drop of blood in a million gallons of water. The point is that fish are just a sensory developed for their environment as deer are for theirs. So IMHO a dart in the ass of a deer is no worse than a hook through the mouth of a fish when we are talking about specifically going fishing just for the sake of fishing and throwing them back. A shot in the butt is no more, probably less so, painful to the deer than a fish being hooked through the mouth and dragged through the water.


AndI would still rather the WHA and all of these other competitions take place behind high fences rather than making a competition with truely wild and free ranging animals. Be it 200 acre plots or 20,000 acre plots.

RE: Similar to WHA.
 

I've read every thread on here concerning the WHA and I honestly cannot recall anyone complaining that they were competing for prizes. From what I understood, the prize portion was just an insult added to the injury.