5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
10-29-2002, 09:36 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bridge City TX S.E.Texas
Posts: 139
5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
First let me state that I've been using mechanicals recently. I think most would agree that mechanicals, GENERALY, do not penetrate as well as fixed heads (all else being equal) but here's where I'm going with this.
The first week of October I was on a hunt with a buddy of mine, both with mechanicals and similar KE, 70/72 ft lbs. I was lucky enough to take 2 nice does with my setup, got pass throughs on both but the back half of the arrow hung up in them and pulled out a few yards down the trail (76 grn rocket miniblaster 3L). Both good broadside shots with animals recovered within 100 yards.
My buddy was shooting a 2 blade mechanical (125 grn vortec) and experienced complete pass throughs with enough energy coming out the back side to "stick in the ground". This, combined with the impressive results from your recent field test of the new 2 blade "rocket", has got me wanting to switch to a 2 blade setup.
My resident pro talked me out of making this switch on the grounds that I would be sacrificing too much cutting diameter, or cutting length, or hemoraging, whatever! Do you have any experience or test results that would give me an idea what the tradeoff would be, 3 blades to 2?
Good Luck All....Fletch
The first week of October I was on a hunt with a buddy of mine, both with mechanicals and similar KE, 70/72 ft lbs. I was lucky enough to take 2 nice does with my setup, got pass throughs on both but the back half of the arrow hung up in them and pulled out a few yards down the trail (76 grn rocket miniblaster 3L). Both good broadside shots with animals recovered within 100 yards.
My buddy was shooting a 2 blade mechanical (125 grn vortec) and experienced complete pass throughs with enough energy coming out the back side to "stick in the ground". This, combined with the impressive results from your recent field test of the new 2 blade "rocket", has got me wanting to switch to a 2 blade setup.
My resident pro talked me out of making this switch on the grounds that I would be sacrificing too much cutting diameter, or cutting length, or hemoraging, whatever! Do you have any experience or test results that would give me an idea what the tradeoff would be, 3 blades to 2?
Good Luck All....Fletch
10-29-2002, 10:05 PM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
Fletch,
Without a doubt a head with 3 blades is going to use up a bit more energy than the comparable head with 2 blades......it has too. But there are also other factors to consider....
All good broadside shots are not the same. Did you actually check your entrance and exit wounds to see what was hit? The reason I ask is that there are a lot of ribs in there and penetration hitting 2 ribs square will be affected more so than 2 ribs missed.
Style of tip will also affect a heads penetrating ability......ESPECIALLY in the event of a single or dual rib hit.
The "Pathfinder", "Trocar" or whatever you want to call them tips do much better than the chisel style point such as your Miniblaster's.
Blade sharpness will also be a factor.....a razor sharp blade has less drag than a dull one. Rocket heads aren't razor sharp out of the package....did you touch them up?
Also....Did you spin test each head?.....Are your arrows tuned to your bow? as either of these will limit penetration power.
See what I'm getting at? Lots of things to consider other than 3 vs. 2 blades.
Results can vary drastically from shot to shot......I'll give you an example from experience.......
I have killed probably 12 deer with the Miniblaster alone so I've seen many different results. I shot a really nice 9 pt with a heavy body 3 years ago at 18 yards slightly quartering, shot thru him like he was a stick of hot butter with my arrow burying hard into a tree root. 2 days later I shot an average sized doe at 10 yards dead broadside and just "TACKED" her.....guess what? the arrow passed thru, but hung up at the fletching and fell out at the first jump.
The difference? RIBS. I slid between the bucks ribs and wound up with bent blades and a very dead deer.......But CENTERED 2 ribs on the doe.
At the time I was shooting 69 ft lbs of KE.
The Miniblaster 3L is a great deer head.....but if you want more consistent performance on bone and a higher percentage of pass thrus, get a package of the "Pathfinder" tips and replace the little black chisel ones....or go to a Rocket Sidewinder.
There is no reason to switch to a 2 blade head with your set-up, you have plenty of energy to make a 3 blade with that cutting diameter (1.5-1.75"
work for you.
I admire the fact that you are desiring the best performance your set-up can give you, but I don't think going "backwards" to a 2 blade is the answer in your case.
I think if you take my advice and slightly alter the STYLE of 3 blade head to incorporate a "Pathfinder" style tip , make sure you spin test every head, and keep your set-up well tuned (not saying you don't already)you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results.
I don't shoot too much more KE than you right now at about 76-77 ft lbs and I am shooting thru deer like they weren't there with a 4 blade Rocket Sidewinder.
Edited by - Matt / PA on 10/29/2002 23:13:32
Without a doubt a head with 3 blades is going to use up a bit more energy than the comparable head with 2 blades......it has too. But there are also other factors to consider....
All good broadside shots are not the same. Did you actually check your entrance and exit wounds to see what was hit? The reason I ask is that there are a lot of ribs in there and penetration hitting 2 ribs square will be affected more so than 2 ribs missed.
Style of tip will also affect a heads penetrating ability......ESPECIALLY in the event of a single or dual rib hit.
The "Pathfinder", "Trocar" or whatever you want to call them tips do much better than the chisel style point such as your Miniblaster's.
Blade sharpness will also be a factor.....a razor sharp blade has less drag than a dull one. Rocket heads aren't razor sharp out of the package....did you touch them up?
Also....Did you spin test each head?.....Are your arrows tuned to your bow? as either of these will limit penetration power.
See what I'm getting at? Lots of things to consider other than 3 vs. 2 blades.
Results can vary drastically from shot to shot......I'll give you an example from experience.......
I have killed probably 12 deer with the Miniblaster alone so I've seen many different results. I shot a really nice 9 pt with a heavy body 3 years ago at 18 yards slightly quartering, shot thru him like he was a stick of hot butter with my arrow burying hard into a tree root. 2 days later I shot an average sized doe at 10 yards dead broadside and just "TACKED" her.....guess what? the arrow passed thru, but hung up at the fletching and fell out at the first jump.
The difference? RIBS. I slid between the bucks ribs and wound up with bent blades and a very dead deer.......But CENTERED 2 ribs on the doe.
At the time I was shooting 69 ft lbs of KE.
The Miniblaster 3L is a great deer head.....but if you want more consistent performance on bone and a higher percentage of pass thrus, get a package of the "Pathfinder" tips and replace the little black chisel ones....or go to a Rocket Sidewinder.
There is no reason to switch to a 2 blade head with your set-up, you have plenty of energy to make a 3 blade with that cutting diameter (1.5-1.75"
work for you.I admire the fact that you are desiring the best performance your set-up can give you, but I don't think going "backwards" to a 2 blade is the answer in your case.
I think if you take my advice and slightly alter the STYLE of 3 blade head to incorporate a "Pathfinder" style tip , make sure you spin test every head, and keep your set-up well tuned (not saying you don't already)you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results.
I don't shoot too much more KE than you right now at about 76-77 ft lbs and I am shooting thru deer like they weren't there with a 4 blade Rocket Sidewinder.
Edited by - Matt / PA on 10/29/2002 23:13:32
10-29-2002, 10:49 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Little Egg harbor NJ
Posts: 1,279
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
Matt/Pa you think too much <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. But I agree with everything you stated. I just like to have three slices through the lungs rather than just two. Just my opinion. the More hemorraging the better for us.
brian
brian
10-30-2002, 04:36 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vinton VA
Posts: 2,978
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
Thanks Matt, you saved me a lot of typing. I personaly am coming to the conclusion that three or four blade heads of 1 3/16 to 1 1/4" are about perfect for deer size animals. The vortex heads are really large, so you still get a good bit of cutting power with the two blades. I have had good luck with two blade heads, but the aniamls will go a bit farther than those hit in the same place with 3 or 4 blade heads of similer size.
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
10-30-2002, 07:31 AM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
Here is something from the other side of the spectrum.....
The two most important things to me when taking any game is:
1. Shot placement.
2. Complete passthroughs
Of course is number one is perfect, the choice of heads becomes less important. But , I always strive to meet both of these criteria.
First of all let me explain that I believe in fixed bladed heads. I have used mechanicals in the past, but no longer use them for my own reasons. But I do not put them down or tell anyone not to use them. I know that they will kill. The only mechanical heads that somewhat interests me are the naildrivers, and snypers. They are both two bladed heads.
I have used however, two, three, and four bladed fixed head in the past, but now prefer the two bladed cut on contact head. I have never, had a non pass through using the two bladed heads, and until I do, I won't use anything else. A lot of people ask me how much I need the arrow to stick in the dirt after a passthough, and I usually tell them as much as possible. I want to use as much force and energy that I can accurately hold back, and shoot the best setup possible, so that I can the most penetration possible. As far as blood trailing, I really don't see much difference using a two bladed head. As stated earlier, it is important to make sure that your blades are sharp though. I put down two deer this year with my two bladed cut on cantacts, both were 25-27 yards shots and both were honestly down in 30 yards.
I remember reading an article this year about someone shooting a buck. The arrow got lodged in the deers shoulder blade and was shot nineten days later still alive. That kind of stuff makes me sick, really.
If you want to see what cut on contacts can do, look at the magnus website under the testimony. I'm not sure if they are stil there, but they had pictures of shoulder blades, where their heads penetrated blades of deer and moose.
Not, trying to start a debate here, just posting my own personal 2 cents.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 10/30/2002 08:42:52
The two most important things to me when taking any game is:
1. Shot placement.
2. Complete passthroughs
Of course is number one is perfect, the choice of heads becomes less important. But , I always strive to meet both of these criteria.
First of all let me explain that I believe in fixed bladed heads. I have used mechanicals in the past, but no longer use them for my own reasons. But I do not put them down or tell anyone not to use them. I know that they will kill. The only mechanical heads that somewhat interests me are the naildrivers, and snypers. They are both two bladed heads.
I have used however, two, three, and four bladed fixed head in the past, but now prefer the two bladed cut on contact head. I have never, had a non pass through using the two bladed heads, and until I do, I won't use anything else. A lot of people ask me how much I need the arrow to stick in the dirt after a passthough, and I usually tell them as much as possible. I want to use as much force and energy that I can accurately hold back, and shoot the best setup possible, so that I can the most penetration possible. As far as blood trailing, I really don't see much difference using a two bladed head. As stated earlier, it is important to make sure that your blades are sharp though. I put down two deer this year with my two bladed cut on cantacts, both were 25-27 yards shots and both were honestly down in 30 yards.
I remember reading an article this year about someone shooting a buck. The arrow got lodged in the deers shoulder blade and was shot nineten days later still alive. That kind of stuff makes me sick, really.
If you want to see what cut on contacts can do, look at the magnus website under the testimony. I'm not sure if they are stil there, but they had pictures of shoulder blades, where their heads penetrated blades of deer and moose.
Not, trying to start a debate here, just posting my own personal 2 cents.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 10/30/2002 08:42:52
10-30-2002, 08:49 AM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 28
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
I agree with you. I personally wouldn't want a mechanical broadhead on the end of my arrow no matter what I'm shooting. I've used Zwickey 2 blade cut on contact heads since day 1 and have YET to shoot an animal that my arrow has not completely passed through. Like it was stated, until I see a reason to change I'll stick with what I'm using.
Just think to yourself.....is that one in a million chance that your weak, 75 grain mechanical broadhead isn't going to perform when you finally get that once in a lifetime shot? I don't think it is.
Just think to yourself.....is that one in a million chance that your weak, 75 grain mechanical broadhead isn't going to perform when you finally get that once in a lifetime shot? I don't think it is.
10-30-2002, 08:58 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Montgomery IL USA
Posts: 1,231
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
Just a question...
70 foot pounds of Ke and the arrow's staying in the deer? I shoot a recurve that spits out less than 40 foot pounds, shoot a cut-on-impact three blade head (Woodsman) and blow through them like a paper bags.
Do mechanicals really suck up that much energy?
JRW
70 foot pounds of Ke and the arrow's staying in the deer? I shoot a recurve that spits out less than 40 foot pounds, shoot a cut-on-impact three blade head (Woodsman) and blow through them like a paper bags.
Do mechanicals really suck up that much energy?
JRW
10-30-2002, 09:56 AM
#8
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fort Wayne Indiana USA
Posts: 574
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
I touted mechanicals as the best thing since sliced bread from '95 until this seasons opening week.
JRW - Yes, mechanicals use up a percentage of the available KE.
I'm not debating, nor attempting to begin a debate of fixed-versus-mechanicals. If you are happy using whichever, GO FOR IT.
I've gone back to Thunderhead 85's (as BobCo earlier stated) for my own reasons. They have never failed me. I just got caught-up in the flood of mechanicals that were hitting the market.
IMO more importantly than what broadhead is used is putting the arrow through the deer in the right place.
GForce
Shoot often - Hunt always
JRW - Yes, mechanicals use up a percentage of the available KE.
I'm not debating, nor attempting to begin a debate of fixed-versus-mechanicals. If you are happy using whichever, GO FOR IT.
I've gone back to Thunderhead 85's (as BobCo earlier stated) for my own reasons. They have never failed me. I just got caught-up in the flood of mechanicals that were hitting the market.
IMO more importantly than what broadhead is used is putting the arrow through the deer in the right place.
GForce
Shoot often - Hunt always
10-30-2002, 10:16 AM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: , IL USA
Posts: 277
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
Ok - Here's another performance calc to add to the equation...
Arrow shaft thickness/circumference vs. head shaft thickness.
I shoot a CX 300 with my broadhead. For kicks, I mounted my broad head to a buddy’s Easton carbon that had a thinner thickness/circumference than my CX.
Both were identical except for shaft thickness. When shot into a HD foam target, the thinner shaft had far superior penetration (excess or 50%).
The CX shaft matched the thickness of the broadhead, the Easton was thinner. Did the CX's shaft add to the friction or drag coefficient - thereby not achieving as great of penetration? Did the Easton have greater penetration because there was less drag on the shaft?
Just some thoughts...
Then again what does a HD foam target have to do with real life penetration? Who knows... Makes me think that the next time I might invest in some smaller diameter shafts when I buy my next batch of arrows (everything else being equal).
"It's not the kill, it's the adventure and challenge! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>"
Arrow shaft thickness/circumference vs. head shaft thickness.
I shoot a CX 300 with my broadhead. For kicks, I mounted my broad head to a buddy’s Easton carbon that had a thinner thickness/circumference than my CX.
Both were identical except for shaft thickness. When shot into a HD foam target, the thinner shaft had far superior penetration (excess or 50%).
The CX shaft matched the thickness of the broadhead, the Easton was thinner. Did the CX's shaft add to the friction or drag coefficient - thereby not achieving as great of penetration? Did the Easton have greater penetration because there was less drag on the shaft?
Just some thoughts...
Then again what does a HD foam target have to do with real life penetration? Who knows... Makes me think that the next time I might invest in some smaller diameter shafts when I buy my next batch of arrows (everything else being equal).
"It's not the kill, it's the adventure and challenge! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>"
10-30-2002, 10:54 AM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: 5 shot or all...2 vs 3 blades?
Justin, the foam is designed to stop arrows. It does so by trying to re-close after the arrow penetrates. It took longer to get a grab on the smaller diameter arrows.
In real world, deer and living tissue is under tension that tends to pull apart when penetrated versus close back up. I doubt you would see a large enough difference to warrant diameter to be a primary consideration in shaft selection.
For those of you slinging two blade cut to tip heads such as Magnus, who stated you've yet to not achieve a total pass through on deer, how many deer have you shot and how many shots encountered bone, rib or shoulder? Would love to hear more on these real world hits.
In real world, deer and living tissue is under tension that tends to pull apart when penetrated versus close back up. I doubt you would see a large enough difference to warrant diameter to be a primary consideration in shaft selection.
For those of you slinging two blade cut to tip heads such as Magnus, who stated you've yet to not achieve a total pass through on deer, how many deer have you shot and how many shots encountered bone, rib or shoulder? Would love to hear more on these real world hits.