Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Maybe within two-three weeks a guy at work and me are going to duel it out with bow and arrows. Actually we hunted together in Colorado last year, so the big talk had 10 days to gather momentum and it hasn't slowed down. Its been a year long feud and he fueled the fire with more big talk last night, and best I could kept my mouth shut. But I can only take so much! I am as stubborn as he is, maybe more. Its a speed vs penetration thing. He has his ideas and I have mine. I have to walk the dog right now and then get ready for work. More info to come in the morning............I'll keep you all posted.;)

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

I can't wait, Coug... :)

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Yes sir, I want to hear more about this one too! [8D]

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

This could be interesting...

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

If you took the penetration side use a cut on contact broadhead , that'll shut him up unless he uses one too .

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

So you guys aren't shooting at each other right? That is typically what I think of when someone mentions a "duel". :) I would hate to see speed and penetration measured in such a manner.

Seriously though, good luck Coug. I am sure you will come out vindicated.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

I guess its going to be awhile. He was/is talking about buying a Bowtech Equalizer, 50-60 lbs. and says he is buying the Speed Pro Max shafts. Best I can tell with what information I have he will be right on the 5 grains per pound limit or thereabouts. He was bragging about how many fps he will be shooting at 60 lbs. I agreed he should be shooting a fast setup, faster than me. My current setup amounts to 6.54 grains per pound, thats shooting at 65 lbs. So I am right around 425 grains and he will be at about 300 grains. He will giving me 5 lbs. but I will be giving him 125 grains. My draw is about 2-2 1/2 inches longer, but he will have the Binary cams. Anyway....................he says absolutely without a doubt, he will have more penetration with his faster, lighter arrows. I have to prove him wrong[8D]. Won't be a very scientific test, but we agreed to use my bag target on field points and a new Morrell Yellow Jacket for broadheads and agreed to use the same broadheads. First he has to get the bow and get it tuned. I told him to take all the time he needs and lets do it right. Gonna be awhile, but I am licking my chops.:D Just hope I don't lick my wounds. To be continued later on.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Too bad you can't get ballistics gelatin for your duel. ;)

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Highly unscientific. Different draw weights and all that. BUT, let the games begin.[8D][8D][8D] I think I would get a couple different materials and shoot each several times coming up with some sort of average. Like Arthur says, ballistic gel would be the ticket. No need for a whole bunch of shots and determining if it was equal, it would be.There are recipes for making it, but it's just too involved and you'd need large refrigerator space.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Yes, highly unscientific but hopefully it will shut him up after we do some measuring and averaging. I think the fact that my arrows penetrate farther and are harder to pull out of the Reinhart targets at our club's 3D shoots than with his current bow setup is making him ill.[8D] Honestly I've never said a word, not until he keeps agitating.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Coug , unless your shoot'n a 26 series shaft , hes got no chance

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Sounds like fun.

A brand new un-wounded yellow jacket with each new hole marked would rule out the arrow that achieved increased penetration due to sliding in an old hole.

Arrow size x arrow weight x arrowspeed= how much penetration

Is this the contest equation?

I'm not sure draw length would be a factor since thespeed variable is being obtained. Unless overall power stroke placed into the arrow affects it's down range trajectory or something like that. Doubt it though.

Let us know how it goes, it will give us something to ponder until deer season rolls around anyways. Nothing like a dual!!

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

regardless, those arrows he's chosen have the spine shot out in 5 flings of each arrow.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Can't wait as well Coug.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

If you want to prove it to him scientifically, just use the following equation:

Kinetic Engergy = 0.5*[(weight or arrow in grains/7000)/32.2] * (speed in fps)^2

That gives you your energy in foot*pounds. Then, you can divide that by the frontalarea of the respective arrows to get foot*pounds per square inch. This will have a direct relation to penetration.

I had to edit this b/c I left out dividing the weight by 32.2 to get the units to mass instead of weight. Sorry if I messed anyone up with that.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Cougar, this ain't fair buddy! You dangle something like this in front of our faces then tell us it's gonna bea while???? [&:][&:][&o] WTH?? I mean, offer me a T-bone and toss it in the freezer why dontcha? Sheesh..... :D

I'm sure you will, but test at different yards, not just up close. Because, if I am thinking correctly, up close he should be pretty close to hangin right w/ ya. But out a little farther is where it will really show up. Stick it to him. Let us know.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

You math guys make my brain hurt! :D

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

The true results won't be TRUE. You're comparing apples and oranges you know with the different weights. OH well,let the games begin. You should definitely make sure you do down range measurements. By that I mean longer distances. You'll maintain a lot more momentum than he will, or is that crap, or is it speed or is it crap or is it momentum or is it kenetic energy or is it force or is it.... who wants a beer. Pass the popcorn.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

I forgot in my original equation to divide by the acceleration of gravity to get the units right, but edited it if you want to see it correct now. Sorry for any confusion.

Anyway, basically it comes down to this... With the weights you gave he would have to shoot a speed1.19 timesthat of your speed. So if you are shooting 250 fps he will need to shoot298 fps to be even with you as far as KE goes.

Sorry I am getting technical, but Ido ballistics analyses for a living so I get all geeked out about stuff like this.

Disclaimer - I am a nerd.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Huntingson, Don't forget that the lighter shaft is going to shed that kinetic energy faster when it impacts the target. Given that the KE's are close to each other, the heavier shaft carries more momentum and that's what's going to tip the scales and win the day for Cougar!

Cougar, The results from the bag target are going to be useless. There is too much variation in the density of the target from point to point. You need a target with more uniform density. I'd suggest using the Morrel for both field point and broadhead tests. (Turn it around from one side to the other when you change heads.)

I forwarded the idea on to Myth Busters!

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Actually the momentum has nothing to do with it due to the fact that momentum is not a force. The law of conservation of energy states that energy in = energy out+ energy stored. The energy out is directly related to distance and the energy stored to heat or friction. The friction is generally ignored due to:1) the complexity of the equationsand 2) it's minimal rolein aero and fluid dynamics.Thefaster arrow will decellerate faster due to the higher velocity while traveling down range,but if you assume impact with the same kinetic energy (bad assumption at longer distances), the penetration diferences will be minimalat best.In this it is assumed the arrows differ only in length and weight but not cross-sectional area. At a certain distance downrange the arrows will theoretically be going and decelerating at the same rate. Thus the lighter will have less kinetic energy down range.

Like I said I am a nerd and do this for a living.

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

huntingson,
So, are you saying that because ice cream has no bones that the speed of light is faster than the speed of sound?

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Okie Dokie, I can see where this may lead. Still won't be scientific but perhaps I will lower my poundage down to 60 to match his draw weight, and then shoot my heavier arrows and then shoot his lighter(cringe) arrows just to see what my own evaluations come out to. I am still betting on my arrows to penetrate farther, and thats at 20 yards on out farther.

Better yet, gonna let him shoot his and mine instead..........I am not too keen on shooting 5 grain per pound arrows with any hunting bow of mine.

You are right Greg......those math guys make my head hurt too.[:-]

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

But if I'm not mistaken, it never was meant to be a fair "apples to apples" comparison, was it Coug? I mean, wasn't it just him kind of mouthing off that he could get more penetration than you, his rig against yours?

I say keep everything the same and blow his doors off! :D

RE: Going to have a duel with bows/arrows.
 

Sort of, kind of.[8D] It all started with our mutual Bowtech dealer telling him he could outpenetrate any and all heavier arrows with those arrows simply because of the speed he would be shooting at. I know the dealer is pushing him to buy some of those arrows but he kept mouthing off about being able to get deeper penetration on the basis of having the lightest fastest arrow, of which the dealer is telling him. I won't argue with our dealer....he is a good guy and does great work on bows, installing string loops, peeps, etc. He hasn't picked the bow up yet, maybe this weekend.