RE: Compound or recurve?
 

And you know, I never will use one, but if a fellow hunter wants to carry one to the woods that's fine with me. I don't hunt to compete. I hunt with a bow for ME and ME alone. What someone else carries into the woods is not going to be the reason I succeed or fail. Whatever the reason, I simply try harder next time. Heck, I hunt during shotgun and muzzleloader seasons with my bow every year. I don't care what they carry if it's legal.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I like compound bows too. I tried out a crossbow once (ONCE... ONE TIME ONLY...) and did not like it. It was at the Sportsman's Show here in Richmond last August. They had a full lineup of Horton and Parker and some other types of crossbows. Curiously, I went in and checked one out. Bizarre looking thing.... It was a Horton model complete with a tiny scope on it. I picked it up and shouldered it, and that too was weird. The stock of it and trigger was like it was made for an 8 year old boy. It was that small of reach for me. That thing that made me immediately put it down after I shot it, was the overall feel. A crossbow is FRONT HEAVY!!! [:'(] It will try to tip downwards on you if you don't hold it up with some effort.

I would really like to see what a recurve bow or even an old long bow would be like shooting, but would be scared to death of losing an arrow into parts unknown.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Just buy or borrow one and start. You start out shooting at distances of feet, not yards. You gradually work your way back and eventually you be into yards.[8D] When I say start at feet, I mean feet. And you stay there for days and weeks if need be. Then one day the arc of the arrow will be visible to you before you shoot it grasshopper.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

If you want to go primitive, I thought this might interest some of you. 15 years ago I worked at a mining operation on the island of Irian Jaya, Indonesia. These natives would bring their bows around and sell them. One long stick of native hardwood with vines for strings. There is no grip, no shelf, not even a notch. They hold the arrows resting on their grip hand. Arrows are not nocked, they are held flat against thethe 5/16" vine. Little native kids would shoot birds off the lower limbs with short versions of these. They were also deadly with slingshots.

Imagine growing up with nothing to do but shoot arrows, get water, and grow sweet potatoes. They shoot before they can walk and are unbelievable with these things. They shootpigs, cassowaries, and other tribes. Those arrows are poison tipped. You can just make out the top of the bow on the right - it is 76 inches.

I was not in to bowhunting at the time or I would have brought more bows home. I have two bows which have beenstored away, and I just got them out when we tried traditional shooting. But I'm not going to try for an elk with one.

Thought you might be interested.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Yes, but Jones.... anyone can see these are canned hunts. Check out the chain link fence.[8D][8D][8D][8D][8D] Interesting qivers they have attached to their manhood. Are we suppose to believe they fill those things up?[8D][8D][8D][8D] Although, as they say, bowhunters have longer shafts.[&:]

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I don't see that in this thread however. Choosing sides that it. FWIW, I don't really care what a person chooses to hunt with. Only that they are informed.

IMO if a person is a true traditional archer, no matter what they choose at any given time, they will come totraditional at some point in their life.

I had alsogone full circle, from recurves, to compounds back to traditional. I almost forgot the pure enjoyment of shooting. And the feeling that I myself with only my shooting skills made the arrow go from point a to point b.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

My first few shots were terribly off. BUT ....... thats the allure of trad shooting. If I wanted to shoot 1/2" groups at 500 yards I'd use a rifle. if I wanted to shoot 3" groups at 40 yards I'd shoot a compound. Its about the challenge of shooting - the dicipline to make an arrow go where I want it to without anything mechanical aiding me.

I killed a squirrel 2 days ago - I drew back, focused, shot and missed the first shot by maybe 6". The second shot I did the same, and double lunged that sucker. Stepped it off - 27 yards. I was more tickled with that shot and kill than any deer I ever shot with a compound, including a couple of P&Y ish bucks.

jones123 I dated a girl that looked like the dude on the left :)

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Poison tipped ! - Now I see the reason for the protective equipment.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Going into my second year of traditional archery I am amazed at how it has changed my views on hunting...... I have fallen in love with archery again.... Just pure archery... It's a beautiful thing..... I find myself so much less concerned with killing something..... I can't even stomach to flip through a main stream hunting magazine..... It actually makes me nautious(sp) seeing what the sport has become.... And I was right there just 2yrs ago, caught up in all the BSthe main stream hunting industry shoves down your throat.... You can't really see it until you seperate yourself from such things.... I haven't watched the outdoor channel in over a year...... I used to be a 4 night a week fan.....I still get the 4 big bowhunting magazines and they never leave the post office.... I throw them straight in the garbage...... That's really all they are, garbage....

If you sink yourself into traditional archery, it will change you as a hunter and even a possibly change you as a person..... Sure, I still haveplans and desiresto hunt big game all across the country, but my outlook on those hunts have been re-prioritized......

In the end, ask yourself what you want out of archery or hunting..... Your answer to that question will lead you down the path that you were designed to be on....... And I agree with BobCo19-65 in his post above, traditional archers will eventually find themselves coming over to our side, no matter where they are at this point.... I'm a case in point.... I come from the new generation.... I'm 29 yrs old and all I know is compounds..... I started shooting at 10 yrs old or so..... Began bowhunting at 12..... Killed my first deer at 14 and then killed 2-3 per year until finally it became no challenge for me..... If I wanted a deer to die, it died..... All the deer had to do was get in bow range..... I lost that rush of adrenaline and pride you get when you kill an animal with a bow..... It had become to automatic...... Draw, aim, shoot, go get animal.... I always had that yearning to go traditional..... I kept it hidden for years...... Scared I may miss out on an opportunity to kill a large buck that would be out of trad bow range..... Finally it dawned on me, its not the outcome that means the most in our lives, its the journey...... If you work your butt off for something, the gratification is amazingly sweet.....

Like I said, traditional or compound...... Decide what you want out of hunting..... The rest will fall into place....

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

...Good stuff!....;)

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Oh Bull Hockey. Hunting is about killing something. The journey is a part of it but the ultimate goal is to shoot something. You can have the greatest journey in the world, but if you never shoot anything you've flat failed at what you set out to do. If the journey is your ultimate goal take up paper punching and photography. The ultimate proficiency test is did you bring any meat home. If the answer is NO, you failed in the ultimate goal. I know all the touchy touchy feel good answers and I ain't buying them. Everry one of you that heads to the woods does so with the hopes and prayers you've practiced enough and you put blood on the ground. You came for a variety of reasons, but the goal is the same. The journey just makes you the old Indian word for vegetarian. Don't tell me it's all about the journey. That's only a part of it. Let's not loose sight of why we hunt and it's ultimate goal. I love a walk in the woods as much or more than the next person, but at least I'm honest as to why I'm there.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Complete opposite point of view from myself.

I took my son turkey hunting (with me, he's still a year away) this past weekend. He heard a few birds on the roost, saw 14 deer, flung a few arrows at some targets and had a great time. It was a successful hunt to me. Nothing killed. Experience and knowledge gained. Nothing at all failed.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Bowhunting in itself is challenging, thats why I do it. I have a different point of view though of which bow to start out with and part of my view has to do with learning many if not all aspects of shooting a bow. I believe any new archer should start out with traditional equipment.

As for statements made that picking up a compound bow and being accurate within minutes is possible, that doesn't qualify anyone to be a good bowhunter. Being consistently accurate is more important and no matter what weapon is used, hunting skills are also important

Arthur, I generally agree with you but can't agree that using traditional equipment is what bowhunting was meant to be. Looking at things that way we could say the same about many things. We could all be riding horses too if the combustible engine was never invented. I bet you do drive a truck. I will agree that overall, using traditional equipment is harder in taking big game with on a consistent basis and that using traditional equipment is very romantic and historic.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I would get the Hoyt Trykon; much better bow then the VTEC; I just traded a Xtec in for one and the Vtec and Xtec are basically the same. Now once you have your compound get a good used traditional long bow or recurve. These can be bought for $100 or less. You will master the compound if youpractice in a week; where the traditional is going to take much longer IMO. Most people hunt with a compound and there is a reason; they are easier to be good with; unless you are Byron Ferguson;)

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Yes, I like making meat.... No doubt..... But if that is what it's all about, why not just use a rifle?

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Learning is always good.But, it wasn't a successful hunt, it was a nice walk in the woods.[8D][8D][8D] I enjoy walks a lot, but don't tell me it was a successful hunt. It wasa fun walk.:)[8D][8D]

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

davidmil

What is your goal ? To kill something ? If it is, go to a farm and shoot a penned deer and you've accomplished your goal, haven't you ?

I'm betting you aren't into canned hunting though. Why ? Because its NOT the kill that makes the hunt.

Its the journey.

You compound hunt because of the added challenge to the hunt. You stack the odds more against you by shooting a shorter range and less accurate weapon than, say, a rifle deer hunt.

Why ?

Because its MORE than the kill.

Then you don't get it and the view you have is ultimately killing our sport.

You are wrong, in that the best days in the woods very easily can end without a loosed arrow. Some of my best hunting days ended in no animals killed.

Can you explain that ? I can - hunting is so much more than the kill. Traditional hunters seem to understand this more.

Actually he IS right. Archery was forever about traditional bows, until the legalization of compounds.

Should P&Y have a trad only category? They don't need to - the P&Y WAS a trad category, until compounds were legalized and accepted. P&Y from the beginning was trad archery, if anything compounds need their own category.

Me ? I could care less about the "book" or if compounds/crossbows either, both or neither are in archery season.

But don't look past that archery season was always about trad archery, the others that were allowed in were just that , ALLOWED in.

Again, you don't get it.


I sense you're the kind of guy who gets upset if he's not seeing animals to shoot. You're not happy with a hunt that ends with an unfilled tag.

Oh, I understand the ultimate goal is filling the tag - but its a very, very small part of the picture that is hunting. Larger parts of the picture is practice, comraderie, scouting, time in the stand watching the world that God created ....... so much more than the few seconds and the actual shot and kill.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

David,hunting to you seems to have a different meaning then it does to me. Hunting does not in all mean killing to me, but is only a part of sports hunting. I do not have to kill to be successful. Success to me has more to do with an inner desire of fulfillment. As Big Red Porker noted, if you want to kill, you can do it very easily. Heck if I wanted to teach my son to kill, I'd take him to a butcher.

But hunting isa pursuit and/or search. Quite different then a careless walk in the woods. This is where our views differ, and it is not necessarily something that I have an overwhelmingneed to convince you of.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

You probably won't understand thisdavidmil, but I killed a squirrel the other day at 27 yards withmy recurve.

I'm more proud of that kill than any buck I'vekilled with a compound or muzzleload or rifle and I've got a couple between 125" and 145"

I rifle hunted last fall, a remote wilderness, do it myself hunt that was incredibly tough. I was more proud of that hunt, accomplished more and got more out of it than my 2004 KS hunt where I killed a non-typical with my Dad's compound. The Colorado rifle tag made soup, but it was a more successful hunt.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Ya know, under certain circumstances traditional equipment is easier than using a compound bow.;) Example is having to take a very quick shot. Ever attend a Saunder's speed round shoot? More times than not a good recurve shooter would win because he was able to get off shots quicker than the archer shooting a compound bow. Its true. My twist to this saga and I am sticking to it!

By the way in answer to the original poster's question I stand by my earlier post urging him to start with a recurve, simply because I believe in starting out with the fundamentals and progressing from there if he so wishes. In fact I love recurves as well as compounds, and in this modern world there is a place for both to be recognized as archery equipment and revered as archery hunting.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I don't believe I said killing was the only thing. I said it was our ultimatepurpose for hunting. If you don't need to kill to have a successful hunt, take up photography. Heck, I won't even shoot a fox or cat or things like that because I don't eat them. A lot the same people that say it's the journey have posed with their pictures of some varmint fox.. a.k.a. squirrell out of season(clearly a violation of your lofty standards and the law) say my idea of hunting is warped. I don't need to kill a squirrel out of season to feel prouder of some shot than I was when I last shot a buck. I'm just putting it to the bottom line. I never said I didn't have fun without killing. I never said I have to kill. Especially to the point that I'd hunt cages or barn yards.
That is such poppycock. As I've stated, I started with recurves before a lot of you were born. I remember going hunting for 3 or 4 years with the bow and never seeing another bowhunter. Old timers will tell you, that's the way it was back in the 60s and 70s. Big Red I really doubt you're as perfect as you think. I on the other hand am legendary.:D:D
Some of the same people that find my idea of "We hunt to Kill" offensive and say "I don't get it".. just don't get it. On one hand they will puff up and say "I killed a squirrell out of season with my long bow. I'm so proud of that shot". Well good for you. Explain that to your sons.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I think you need to go with what interests you more bow styles are fun no matter what way ypu look at it both have their advantages and disadvantages. you can't let anyone tell you what is better or what is more accepted because imo nobody has that right. In my response to some previouse posts yes if it wasn't for the compound and all its bells and whistles as well as advertising and sponser the sport of archery as a whole would be in big trouble. And as far as a hunt being unsuccessful because you never came home with any game in your pick up I think is not the way I look at it, I feel that just getting out in the woods and maybe finding a new scrape or rub ao finding a new spot to sit or just seeing game is a very successful hunt and well worth the trip and to me is not just a walk in the woods, and I won't have to explain this to mykids beacuse I believe that my kids will feel the same way as they well join me on my hunts and sharethe samesatisfaction I get being in the woods.
Good luck to all in what ever you do.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Whichever the hunter is more comfortable with. Myself I prefer a compound.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Dave,

I read my post again and realized that it may have had a touch of elitism in it.... I'm sorry for that, as I did not mean to tone it that way...... All my best friends are compound hunters and I was myself for almost 20yds....I think some people are just more passionate about the sport as a whole and some are more passionate about the kill......It's 2 different views points, neither one being wrong or right IMO..... My post was simply a reflection of how I feel about hunting.... How going traditional changed ME...... I also realize that not all compound hunters are obsessed with the kill.... They simply choose the weapon they wish to hunt with, for various reasons...... They may be a tech junkie... They love pinpoint accuracy... They don't have the time or dedication to become proficient with trad equipment....... That's all good..... You get out of life what you put into it.....

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

But from your posts killing is the only thing that determines whether a hunt is successful.

Please don't include me in your word "our". It's the pursuit, preperation, and experiencethat gets me going. The hunt brings me closer to nature, myself, family, and god. Killing is just a small part of the hunt.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I'll have to side with davidmil regarding what successful hunting is. Ultimately the goal of hunting is to take game. No one would argue that you have to kill something to have had a wonderfull time in the woods and I think just about everyone would agree that the actual kill is only a tiny amount of time spent out of the entire hunting experience. I think the problem here (IMHO) is that some confuse succeeding at having a great time/experience with succeeding at the entire hunting experience. I don't think they are one in the same. As davidmil said, ultimately the goal is to kill something and by definition if that is the goal then you have failed in that goal if you don't do it at some point. If your goal is to just have a good time then of course you can succeed in that regard without killing something but of course then you must admit that your goal is not to succeed in a complete hunting experience but rather a partial one. Do you have to kill in order to have had a good time? Of course not, in fact if I didn't have a good time on my outings that failed to result in the taking of game I wouldn't hunt anymore. But I just don't think it's reality to claim to be a successfull hunter if in the end the freezer is empty. I wouldn't consider you to be much of a pilot if you did everything but land the plane and I wouldn't consider you much of a hunter if you did everything but kill the game you pursue.

With regard to compound or recurve. I killed my first deer with a recurve in 1968 and didn't start hunting with a compound until 1980. Is it more challenging with a recurve? Certainly. Which do I enjoy more? Well all things considered, I'd have to say the compound. I'll emphasize FOR ME! To me the weapon I use is only part of the equation and I suspect it is only part of the equation for others as well. How big a part I'm sure varies hunter to hunter. I recommend giving both recurve and compound a fair shot and deciding for yourself.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Sylvan, I think you made a good post. Not argueing with you, just discussing. But does a complete hunting expereince (in your words) = a kill. Not for me. I can have a complete hunting expereince without the kill.

But my goal is not to put meat in the freezer. I can do that more successfully using other methods.

If you consider me a hunter or notdoesn't matter to me. Of course, I am attempting to kill the game I am in pursuit of, but if it doesn't happen, it's still OK with me.If it did make a difference to me, I may inclined to shoot at animals, I usually would not take shots at.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Sylvan,

I think some of "our" points got lost in the paragraphs of previous posts...... When I go hunting, I want to kill something...... The kill in and of itself doesn't make or break the hunt for me..... But have no doubt, my intentions are to kill...... I think what we were trying to say isthat we have selected a weapon with far less capabilities than the compound, b/c for many of us, the kill isn't as important as the entire experience..... The kill is still part of it, but not the key stone........We value the hard work and dedication required to become profficient with the weapon.... We have earned the right to make the shot through many hours and thousands of arrows loosed...... The arrow's flight is actually part of us and not some mechanical device..... My brain determined where to hold the arrow, not some 10 pin sight...... It's a different state of mind..... I want to feel like I made the perfect shot, not the engineer for xyz bow company.....

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Great post Sylvan. Nicely worded. I think a lot of the arguement is over semantics. I agree that if you are a hunter the ultimate goal is to make a kill of some kind, at some point. Your motive for that kill may/will vary. Some people restrict their goal for the kill toa specific type of animal that fits some self-imposed criteria, others are more opportunistic. I think the confusion comes in when people think of one instance rather than the experience as a whole. If I go out one day, or even one season,and don't kill anything is that an unsuccessful hunt? In one regard yes, since I didn't fufill my ultimate objective, but in other ways no, I succeeded in other goals (enjoyment of nature, safe outing, ethical practices, quiet time, fellowship) they just all didn't combine with the final conclusion. We are not merely killing, but neither are we merely passive observers of nature, we are active participants. So it would seem that some are discussing with one event/outing in mind, while othershave in mindthe practice of hunting as a whole.

I think the arguement parallels fly fishing. Fly fishers love the whole experience involved with fishing not just the catch. They enjoy the preparation, the application, and the catch. Is it just catching a fish? No they could do that more proficiently by using a net. But it's the experience as a whole, including the hooking up with a fighting fish.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I'm not arguing either. I actually understand and even agree with nearly all you've said. It's really just down to the details of the words we are using that I disagree a bit. So to answer your question, yes, to me part of hunting is killing the animal that is pursued. So if there is no kill then the experience is by definition incomplete. Certainly someone who has never killed a deer can not claim to have experienced all of deer hunting.
I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was speaking generically. I've read many of your posts and I know you to be a dedicated and successfull hunter by any definition. I should have said
"I wouldn't consider one much of a hunter" rather than "you much of a hunter". And I agree with you in that I don't care what anybody thinks of the way I hunt or feel about hunting either.
It's OK with me too. But if I am as you say "attempting to kill" and I fail in that attempt then again by definition I did not succeed.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Was it stated that the squirrel was out of season? Is it your assumption that no state hasa year-round season for squirrels as a pest species? Don't know either way. Just asking you objectively.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I don't completely agree with that. I would not consider myself a failure or that I failed in the hunt if I let an animal walk because say he is too far from me or at a bad angle. Failure (or unsuccessful) has a negative connotation implied with it, and in cases mentioned above (which will happen more often then not with the type of weapons we are choosing), I would considerit positive that I let the animal walk. My hunting skills and preparation has brought me to this situation, however factors outside of my control are now at work.Now if an animal is within my range, I took my shot, missed, or wounded the animal, I would consider this a failed hunt. I would even go as far as saying a failed hunt could occur if my arrow did not go where I intended it to go (not deflected) but I was still able to recover the animal. I have had this happen in the past and did feel like a failure.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Again, you're looking at one event rather than the hunting experience asa whole. In that one event you did not complete the end objective but you did complete many secondary objectives. But you did intend to complete the end objective ( I don't say primary because for many it isn't the highest priority objective but it is the final objective, unless you include meat or cape preparation ) but other criteria were not met at that instance to warrant you to take the shot.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Now you guys are getting deeper and deeper into semantics.....

The point was, we choose the weapon based on the dedication it takes and what it stands for..... We are willing to give up some kills that could have been made with a compound.... We accept that fact and we embrace it.... It's actually the same mindset that compound hunters have for rifle hunters...... Most consider rifle hunting too easy and choose to miss out on kills in order to challenge themselves with the compound.... The method and "journey" means more to them than the kill....... It's EXACTLY the same with traditional, except we've gone a few steps further....... Think about how much more a compound hunt means to you compared to a rifle hunt..... The kill is SO much more meaningful....... Now multiply that times 10 fold, and you will understand where we are coming from.....

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Did you ever notice older hunters seem more likely to do that ? Or at least carry cameras that allow them to photograph along with the hunt ? Do you wonder why that is ?


davidmil - if success in hunting hinges on the kill, and you don't kill after a day of hunting, how can you say it was a successful hunt then ?

I say it doesn't hinge on the kill, it hinges on the hunt itsself, and therefore I can have many a successful hunt without filling a tag.


I misspoke when I said

not literally the other day, it was late winter, in season.

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

For any of youthat need even more of a challenge be it with traiditionalor compoundtry coming out west and killing a antelope buck without a blind or better yet a big muley buck. I am leaving out elk because they can be called into close range or patterned like whitetails so you set up tree stands over wallowsand hunt them that way. I willadd thoughthat elk hunting is not a sure thing, in Idaho the success for archery elkhuntersruns between 12 to18 percent at best. You can bet that the majorityof those kills are small bulls and cows. Not the big bulls that Wilber Primos and his crew kill each year on film.They (Primos)do make it look easy but I promise you it aint. If you don't believe me, well, I chalenge you topick up your bow andcome out west on a public land do it yourself bow hunt, with a over the counter elk tag.After tell me how you did? A few each year are indeed sucessful but most 80% or more eat tag soup. Back to my point,a big muleybuck is a true bowhuntes trophythat very few bowhunters achieve.They cannot be patterned like a whitetail, or called in like a elkand once spoked they can dissapear for the rest of the season. The shots tend to be long and that makes hunting them with a traditional bow even harder. If we could hunt them in the rut each and every yearthat would also of help. But unless you are inluck and draw a late season tag in a area where there are some big muleys, chances be most bowhunters will never kill one in their lifetime. Bowhunters (myself included) do kill muley bucks butmost are dump and young with small antlers, they are a totalydifferent critter then theirold wise mentors. Now I do want to try hunting elk with a traditional bow only because I know I can call them in close. There has notbeen a season in the last10 years that I didn't either kill a elk with my bow under 20 yards or had the chance to,but choose to pass in hopes of finding a bigger bull. But a big muley buck I have not even had a crack at one yet. Like I said before they are a true bowhunters trophy! I have seen a few within rifle range during archery seaons but the smart things knew I was their and their was zero chance of getting close enough for a shot.Traditional or Compound who cares? But if you want a challenge, well you all know my opinion andthats saying a lot from a guy who has elk blood running through his veins and mind.:D

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

I've done it. Took horses in and stayed in tents way back in the Flat Tops Wilderness. It was a terrific experience and adventure. We came to hunt, and that we did. Bagging an Elk would have been a bonus. We came close a few times, but didn't manage to get a bull within range. I'd do it again in a second. But we have two hunts lined up already on Whitetails in Buffalo County and Moose in New Foundland in the upcoming years.

Couple picks (yes I did carry a camera), First is a sunrise, second is my partner and myself (right), and the third is a view outside of the tent:

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Its all about the beerback at camp. When there is no beer, the hunt was a failure.,:D

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Nice pics BobCo;).

RE: Compound or recurve?
 

Thanks Matthew, the hunt in Colorado was life altering. I look at things maybe in a little different perspective. My wife claims that I have not been the same since I went hunting there. I'm not sure if that is bad or good. :)In any event, if you ever get a chance to go there, even if it is not for hunting, make sure you go.

And BTW, this thread kind of took a life of it's own. Hope itwasat least some help in your original topic question.

Bob