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Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
I would never intentionally try to shoot through the shoulder blade of a deer but sometimes bad shots happen accidently. How much kinetic energy does it take to consistently penetrate the shoulder blade of a deer? I get between 73 and 80 ft-lbs depending on which arrow I shoot out of my Hoyt Razortec at 70lbs and 30" draw. I plan on using a slick trick 1 1/8" Magnum 100 grain broadhead this year. I'm going to Illinois on a once in a lifetime hunt this fall and I want every advantage I can get for those big Pike county suckers.....
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
I get considerably less KE from my setup (around 63lbs)and i have passed throughshoulders with Muzzy's and also Magnus stingers. I think you have more than enough KE. Thats not the best shot to take but I havent had a deer run more than 100 yards after being hit dead center in the shoulder. Good luck in Illinois this season.
Zach |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
i have a darton at about 63-65lbs and i can shoot through with muzzy
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
KE, momentum,arrow diameter, arrow material, arrow tune, shot angles, location on the shoulder blade itself (it's not the same thickness througout),animal size,broadhead design,cutting diameter......am I missing anything?
There are too many variables involved to narrow down a "Shoot don't shoot" involving shoulder blades on animals. There will be those that say they can shoot through, those that can't ,even those that say they shoot through BOTH shoulders??:eek:Which also begs the question if some even know enough about animal anatomy to determine exactlyt what was hit. The far edge of the "paddle" is different than the bony ridge of the spine of the shoulder blade. Too many factors to make direct comparisons without in depth forensic type stuff. Bottom line: Do what you are doing in planning for the worst, do your best to avoid that shot and hope that one or more of the above variables comes through for you if you find yourself in that situation. |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA KE, momentum,arrow diameter, arrow material, arrow tune, shot angles, location on the shoulder blade itself (it's not the same thickness througout),animal size,broadhead design,cutting diameter......am I missing anything? There are too many variables involved to narrow down a "Shoot don't shoot" involving shoulder blades on animals. There will be those that say they can shoot through, those that can't ,even those that say they shoot through BOTH shoulders??:eek:Which also begs the question if some even know enough about animal anatomy to determine exactlyt what was hit. The far edge of the "paddle" is different than the bony ridge of the spine of the shoulder blade. Too many factors to make direct comparisons without in depth forensic type stuff. Bottom line: Do what you are doing in planning for the worst, do your best to avoid that shot and hope that one or more of the above variables comes through for you if you find yourself in that situation. |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
Matt saved Rob and me some serious typing; he's good about that! ;)
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
When you hit heavy bone the whole world of kinetic energy theory gets turned on its ear, momentum becomes the driving force then. The best thing to do is concentrate on accuracy and avoid the problem all together.
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
ORIGINAL: KodiakArcher When you hit heavy bone the whole world of kinetic energy theory gets turned on its ear, momentum becomes the driving force then. The best thing to do is concentrate on accuracy and avoid the problem all together. |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
hey what these guys are saying is right on!!!!!!!!if you hit the shoulder near the socket most likely your not going to penatrate at all.the shoulder blade is a different storyyou mite get through one of those,two i dont know. unless you got gun powered behind your arrow i would stay away from that shoulder, rather hit him a little far back then in the shoulder!!!! Good luck on your hunt this year. let us know how you do out there!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
Besides all of that I have seen guys get pass thrus on shoulder hits and never find the deer. Its to far forward with a bow.
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
I guess everybody's definition of the shoulder bone is different. I have yet to see the rig and setup that will pass through the ridge of bone that runs the lengthof the scapula on a mature bucklet alone two. Now hit on either side of that boney ridgeand it could be a different story. That part of the scapula can be penetrated.
Even then, there are so many variables that one could miss bone entirely and still not get a pass through with 70 pounds of KE on a mature animal-I have personally witnessed it on more than one occasion. Last year on two of the fourdoes I shot I was unable to get a complete passthrough. I am shooting a 70# Bowtech Allegiance (well tuned) with a 445 grain arrow going around 270 fps, tipped with 125 grain (included in the 445 figure)slick trick. Though both were mature does neither of these two were particularly big. On the other hand I have blown completely through a full grown bull elk with this setup andones with lesser KE(minus the broadhead. I was shooting a different broadhead on the elk setup and I don't believe the broadhead mattered on the does anyway) on more than one occasion. Again just so many variables that can affect the outcome... |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
How much kinetic energy does it take to consistently penetrate the shoulder blade of a deer? Don't care what bow ya got, don't care what poundage you got, don't care what arrow ya use. your not going to achive the above statement with a bow and arrow. Your key word is consistently. Your are always going to get inconsistent results when you mess with the shoulder bone of any animal. Too many variables from shot to shot, anything can and does happen. it is best to discover why your shots are going there, I know your not aiming there, and correct it. |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
Yes shoulder blades offer much protection for deer & elk sized animals, but they aren't bullet proof! (pun intended) There are setups that will "consistently" blow through the shoulder plate or scapula of both deer & elk. I say this because we've done it many times. I've also seen heads fail in their feeble attempts as well.
Most hunters use popular off the shelf fixed heads & many use mechs. You're limited in their use. Those heads do what they were built for, & do it well. Bone crushing penetration isn't one of them! An arrow setup of 450grns & up tipped with a strong broadhead designed for such scapula type hits is what's needed.These are"worst case senario" setups! Heads like Grizzlies, Stingers, etc. will do the job well especially so on deer. The Silver Flame heads are best, they're designed for bone crushing penetration. 60lbs of KE & up, more is better, will blowthrough any part of a deer or elk. Be it leg shoulder or whatever! The thing to remember is there's only certain angles or positions that you can hit here & penetrate that lead into the heart lung area. When faced with those angles & you accidentally crowd the shoulder you can be assured that your setup is designed to handle such encounters! I belive the new snufferss will also fit the bill with 60s KE & higher. In the case of elk, you don't even have to crowd the shoulder at times, elk will dip down & back many times at the shot, putting the scapula right in line with your shot, Bummer! If shooting muzzys or TH or similar heads chances are you've crippled an animal & will not recover it! Been there done it! It's not a good feeling! I'm not condoning shoulder shots, but crap happens, be prepared with a bone crushing setups! Too, with enough KE & momentum, (that's the heavier setup) you will plow through those tough spots! Most bows today are well exceeding 60+# of KE. My son shoots a recurve, he's shooting cedar shafts out ofhis 60# bow. The arrow wt is 625 grns, it was tipped with a 2-bladed swickey traveling at 175 fps. He shot a bull last year that I called in, I was standing 6-8' away at the shot, on his release the bull dropped down as I mentioned earlier that theydo at times, the shot caught him square in the scapula, it sounded like a bat hitting a tree, he did not intend for that to happen, it did though! The heavy arrow setup with the 2-bladed head blew through the scapula & caught both lungs! the bull was down in sec. This isn't a first! Use the right setup & you'll be glad you did in those "worst case senario" situations. Don't worry aboiut losing a few fps in your setup with the extra wt!!--------Sure there's always variables, but put the odds in your favor with bone penetrating setups! Good Luck!-----ElkNut1 |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
ORIGINAL: elknut1 Yes shoulder blades offer much protection for deer & elk sized animals, but they aren't bullet proof! (pun intended) There are setups that will "consistently" blow through the shoulder plate or scapula of both deer & elk. I say this because we've done it many times. I've also seen heads fail in their feeble attempts as well. Most hunters use popular off the shelf fixed heads & many use mechs. You're limited in their use. Those heads do what they were built for, & do it well. Bone crushing penetration isn't one of them! An arrow setup of 450grns & up tipped with a strong broadhead designed for such scapula type hits is what's needed.These are"worst case senario" setups! Heads like Grizzlies, Stingers, etc. will do the job well especially so on deer. The Silver Flame heads are best, they're designed for bone crushing penetration. 60lbs of KE & up, more is better, will blowthrough any part of a deer or elk. Be it leg shoulder or whatever! The thing to remember is there's only certain angles or positions that you can hit here & penetrate that lead into the heart lung area. When faced with those angles & you accidentally crowd the shoulder you can be assured that your setup is designed to handle such encounters! I belive the new snufferss will also fit the bill with 60s KE & higher. In the case of elk, you don't even have to crowd the shoulder at times, elk will dip down & back many times at the shot, putting the scapula right in line with your shot, Bummer! If shooting muzzys or TH or similar heads chances are you've crippled an animal & will not recover it! Been there done it! It's not a good feeling! I'm not condoning shoulder shots, but crap happens, be prepared with a bone crushing setups! Too, with enough KE & momentum, (that's the heavier setup) you will plow through those tough spots! Most bows today are well exceeding 60+# of KE. My son shoots a recurve, he's shooting cedar shafts out ofhis 60# bow. The arrow wt is 625 grns, it was tipped with a 2-bladed swickey traveling at 175 fps. He shot a bull last year that I called in, I was standing 6-8' away at the shot, on his release the bull dropped down as I mentioned earlier that theydo at times, the shot caught him square in the scapula, it sounded like a bat hitting a tree, he did not intend for that to happen, it did though! The heavy arrow setup with the 2-bladed head blew through the scapula & caught both lungs! the bull was down in sec. This isn't a first! Use the right setup & you'll be glad you did in those "worst case senario" situations. Don't worry aboiut losing a few fps in your setup with the extra wt!!--------Sure there's always variables, but put the odds in your favor with bone penetrating setups! Good Luck!-----ElkNut1 0-3 on shoulder hits with Muzzy 125 grain 3 blade and light arrow. 3 years ago I switch(not on purpose) Heavy arrow I just above 450 grains and Montec 125 broad head. 1-1 Deer in my avitor I shot right thru the blade went about 60 yds. Yes I shot this on purpose. I yelled at the deer(to get him to stop)and was looking up right at me at 10 yds qrt too a lot!! Was no "heat of the moment" I pulled the trigger knowing exactly what I was doing. In all honesty I then said a little prayrer, I know this is not a high % shot. I did get lucky, but I truly beleive my setup help me out a bunch. |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
With your KE output I wouldn't worry about it too much. A lot of variables could impact penetration in bone such as broadhead design, strength, arrow diameter, KE, shot distance, alertness of the game animal, etc. It's hard to say exactly how any arrow will perfrom in a game animal from one shot to the other.
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
shoulder blade isnt that tought to go through its the thick part of the bone that will likely stop the arrow. i shot three deer one year through both blades with my rocket steelheads but ive seen my brother (hes always had problems hitting the shoulder) stick deer in the solid bone with a 70lb bow and muzzys and the arrow goes no further then the broadhead and youll know it its a real loud crack.
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RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
First of all I will tell you that I am a novice. This past season was my first w/ bow. Have hunted w/ muzzleloader and rifle for almost ten yrs. Hunt in Manitoba for whitetails. I initially had alot of questions about the killing power of my bow, or any for that matter.... I had used .50 cal., 30-06 and they have lots of energy. How can this little stick kill I asked my hunting partner?.... the bow has been used for over 2000 yrs, i think we'vegot it down he says. I trudge off and sit in my stand, where I had missed a nice doe the week B4. A nice young buck comes in, w/in my new personal limit of 20yds.... hit him a little far back. I go back and seek theaid of my hunting partner...... 2hrs laterwe went in and found my buck piled up, no more than 80yds away from where he was hit. I had heard him go down but b/c of thelocation and angle of the hit I wanted to give him time.
Spring is here and Iwas out in the yard shooting........nailed a shoulder froma 4x4 (no basket) that I shot during rifle season last season onto my backing........ 53lbs draw wieght on my pro sport wasp. Didn't matter where I nailed it.... my target points drove through the half frozen shoulder blades. I then made burger. I really didn't want to use my broadheads.... Sonic 100gr b/c i don't think the bladestake the impact too lightly. Seems evrytime I hit a deer I need to replace the blades. Persoanlly I would say w/ a close range shot, you should be able to penetrate the shoulder. But does the increased diameter of the broadhead make it more difficult to penatrate? |
RE: Penetrating the Shoulder Blade
I think another factor that is often overlooked is the individual make up of deer. Simply put, some deer are tougher than others. The same way one person may have larger bones, and tougher ligaments, than another, holds true with animals. I am amazed at how quick one deer will expire with a marginal shot, while another goes very far one a perfect one. My rule of thumb is to ALWAYS place my pin on the spot that will give me the best crack at taking out both lungs, and or heart. The equiptment available today is just too good to not strive for this....JMHO
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