NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

[font="verdana,helvetica,sans-serif, arial"]Here is an article. From what I hear from NY hunters pretty right on. About not seeing deer

02/23/06

[font="verdana,helvetica,sans-serif, arial"]Area deer take down
Story text size
-2-10+1+2
By Jake Palmateer
Staff Writer

DAVENPORT — When one hunter comes into Losie’s Gun Shop and complains about a lack of deer in the area, he is probably a bad hunter, owner Jim Losie said Wednesday.

"But when you get 300 guys coming here and saying it, you know it’s a problem," Losie said.

Losie, who has been in the gun-shop and hunting-supply business for 26 years, said that in the last three years, more hunters have been complaining about a lack of deer — especially quality bucks — than ever before.

The state Department of Environmental Conservation announced Tuesday that hunters harvested 14 percent fewer deer in 2005 than in 2004.

[align=left]Advertisement[/align] In Chenango, Delaware, Otsego and Schoharie counties, the drop was 11 percent. But DEC statistics show a 49 percent decline in the area deer take since 2002.

Losie said hunters from outside the area, who have traditionally been a boon for local businesses such as hotels and restaurants during what is otherwise a slow time of year, are beginning to opt for Canada.

They don’t want to waste their money in New York, he said.

DEC officials said the statewide drop is the result of specific management actions designed to bring the deer population down from the high levels of 2002 and 2003. But they said severe winters resulted in deer population declines that were greater than expected.

[align=center]What's Related[/align][*]Early hunting questioned Losie said coyotes are one of the major causes in the decline in this area.

"The fawns are just getting riddled by coyotes," Losie said.

One woman who bought a trail camera from him reported seeing 15 to 18 fawns taken by coyotes to their den in one week, Losie said.

However, a former DEC commissioner said Wednesday there are greater factors at work.

"Since 1960, we lost 100,000 small dairy farms," Michael Zagata of West Davenport said.

The brushy, early stages of reforestation on the former farmland, as well as active logging, created ideal conditions for deer and other wildlife, Zagata said.

"We got used to it," Zagata said.

But as the hunters of that time aged, the landscape also aged, he said.

The state now has 10 million acres of pole timber, Zagata said, which limits sunlight to the forest floor.

"No sunlight, no plants. No plants, no deer food," Zagata said.

Zagata said deer are also contributing to a decline in other wildlife and plant species in the state as they consume young oak trees and other forage on the forest floor.

Losie said hunters are frustrated by the DEC for not doing more to improve the deer herd.

Most hunters he encounters at his shop, Losie said, want to see a year-round hunting season for coyotes, antler-point restrictions to limit the harvesting of young bucks and better land-management practices on state land to improve deer forage.

In an effort to rebuild the herd, the state in 2005 issued 35 percent fewer deer-management permits — known among hunters as doe permits.

They also instituted a pilot program in parts of Ulster County that allowed hunters to only harvest bucks with more than three points on either of their two antlers.

But DEC officials said they don’t want a return to the deer population levels of 2002 because of concern over damage to agriculture, forest regeneration, landscaping or vehicle accidents.

Zagata said there is no easy solution to the deer-herd question.

"We actually need to get the (deer) numbers lower in conjunction with active forest management on a large scale," Zagata said. "Believe it or not, we have too many deer for the habitat to support."

A reduction in the deer herd now, combined with the creation of better habitat, would result in a larger and higher-quality deer herd in the future, he said.

But Zagata said any land-management practice that includes logging on protected state land will run into opposition.

We have a public that wants to protect every tree that grows, Zagata said.

"There are millions of acres (in the state) that are not productive for wildlife," Zagata said. "We can literally protect things to death."

As the forests age, wildlife, plant and tree species will become less diverse and many will disappear, Zagata said.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

No big surprise..........I have been hearing........and saying this for years.




Sounds familiar






About average............just a complete mockery.




Potentially the only thing that could save this mess......but I even doubt that.......I'm sure revenue from other sources trumps this big time.


Nothing quite like a double lie to turn your stomach. They did not present the more doe permits in 2002 etc as a way to slaughter the herd numbers down........They said those additional permits were necessary to continue to "maintain" the ever growing herd......in other words we have to kill more just to keep up. Lie number 2 is the ever popular "severe" winter crutch. What a crock. I have lived in NY all my life......those winters weren't any worse then the average. I saw no dramatic increase in dead fawns or winter starvations...........I always have to laugh at the DEC's garbage about "harsh" winters...........how come they never mention the "mild" winters and say "Oh know, we are gonna have too many deer now". Nope, it's always "too few deer"???..........play the tough winter card. As lame as lame gets.



He is 100% correct.


WOW........hard to imagine with such a dismal enviornmental outlook that we had record numbers of deer in 2002. Just another line of BS. This would hold some merit if we were discussing a gradual decline over decades............not a massive slaughter over 3 years. Just plain stupid.




And there you have it folks...........right there in black and white. They wanted the herd slaughtered but knew the only way to accomplish that was to lie and trick the hunters into doing it for them while being under the impression that they were "maintaining" an ever growing herd.......not destroying it and hunting for years to come. Pretty sick.



Yes there is.........QUIT, and take all your buddies with you. Then we can hire some COMPETENT biologists that actually may consider the interests of NY hunters as part of their deer herd policy.


We are in big trouble with these clowns at the wheel. These are sad times right now and unfortunately I see no break in the clouds.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

wow, i feel bad for u guys.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

its true... here where i hunt a yearling is considerd a monster.. in fact my grandpas hunted here for 20 years and the biggest he ever got was a not so big 6 pointer, its reall hard to pass a spike cause theres a small chance it will get a chance to grow up by next year..

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

I know some of these folks...[:@]

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

It's no surprise to me either and I'm 1,000 miles away!!! Our hunters are seeing fewer deer as well and the last 2 years have been horrible across the board from my perspective and hundreds of others..... However, the QDM nuts have infiltrated the legislature and they keep saying kill more kill more!!!! It's totally BS..

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

TOO BAD

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

Well all I can say, in Northern New York, I have seen like 3 bucks in four or five years. And they were small.

I own 119 acres and the neighbor is a great guy, and most of the people, but their thought is if it has antlers it gets shot. Most will not shoot does, and I have permission to hunt the neighbors area, but he does not want any does shot. Means serious lack of bucks.

Now, as for does, I see them when I am out, but not during the season! [&o][8D]

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

To me it's not as bad as people think. Yes, Deer numbers may be down but that may be good for the deer herd. I have had no problem seeing deer (I know that is just me, but I know a lot of people that feel the same anda fewthat don't). Here are the "official" DECnumbers (from local newspaper):

- deer take down 14% statewide - that's not too bad when the DMP tags were reduced by 35%
- many counties showed an increase in buck harvest, but a decrease in total deer harvest (300-1600 deer for the 3 counties listed - Broome, Tioga, Delaware)
- Chenango Co. (where I hunt predominantly) actually showed an increase in deer take even without a DMPs issued (no DMPs last year either). they did state that DMAP permits may have scewed that a bit

all is not as bleak as some may think. deer are still there to be taken.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

Hmmmm. This last season I put in about 50-60 hours of treestand time near Oneonta. I saw 1x 4.5 year old buck, 2x 3.5 year old or better bucks, and at least 8-10 others that were 1.5 to 2.5 years old. I also saw countless does. I actually passed a 100" 8 pointer during the first week of November. I think the hunting is great where I have access to hunt, it is about 130 acres just outside the town of Morris. The owner of the property is also on here (APAJaws) and he saw over 15 different bucks on the property this year. Maybe this place is just a small snapshot of what is possible if others in NY would start to manage for a better (not necessarily bigger horned) herd.This property has been managed and has had several acres of food plots on it for many years to help supplement a larger population, and has had light pressure for a LONG time. I can't wait for opening day next season.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

You are very much in the minority IMO.


It also may not be good.........it certainly isn't good for deer hunting and it's future when you take a teenager into the woods and he sits there for 5 days in the freezing cold and sees nothing...........first impressions last a LONG time and that kid may never see the need to waste another week of his life like that again.


Wouldn't be "too bad" if we were talking about a 14% decline from a respectable number........but we aren't. We are talking about a decline on top of a decline on top of a decline. There is no escaping the fact that they just killed too many deer.


It is much bleaker then some may think........they just don't realize it because they find themselves in an area lucky enough not to have been hit as hard as others by the mismanagement or ignorance of the DEC.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

Sounds like you have a nice piece of private property to hunt. I have a couple myself......we drill a couple deer there every year and see more then we do anywhere else. I don't consider a local farmer's land when I discuss the condition of the state's deer herd. Spend some time on public lands and you will get a better idea of what most hunters have as an option to enjoy deer hunting. I hunt in many areas that were just plain loaded with deer for more years then I can remember.......now you are lucky to even see one. This state's deer herd has been mismanaged horribly......either through stupidity or on purpose......I can't decide which one is worse.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

I head back up North to hunt in Steuben county every November. At night, if I step out on the porch,I can hear the coyotes hunting. I can't evenremember having coyotes 20 years ago. They certainly do a number on the fawns. As far as a season on them...everyday is coyote season in my book (it's the only time I hunt with a rifle)!

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

My sister and brother-in-law talk about hearing coyotes and the rumors going around about how bad they are wiping out farm animals (not to mention deer!) [&:]

I have been following a lot of threads on deer hunting (and also the Northeast forum with all the arguements and flame wars about NY State hunting conditions).

NY State DEC is a total joke! I just can't believe how bad my old home state has gone downhill! [>:][&o][:'(] $75,000 question: WHAT HAPPEND?!?!?

I know my "profile" says I am from Richmond, VA, but that is where I settled when I retired from the USCG. My "home" will always be in Dutchess Co outside Poughkeepsie, NY. We lived in LaGrangeville and had 10 acres of property right near the Taconic Pkwy back in the 60's & 70's.

I remember seeing deer back when I was a little kid. There were no coyotes hunting them down and killing them. Heck, my dad, uncles, etc... used to go hunting back then and never had a problem. (I was too little to go back then, but once I came of age, then had all given it up :().

Anyway, I still visit NY State from time to time visiting friends and relatives. Everytime I go back "home" something has changed. A new shopping plaza, a new mall, new condos, townhouses, $13.5M sprawling mansions for NYCity lawyers.... WTF happend to the peaceful countryside of NY State?!?!?

My sister and brother -in-law retired from Poughkeepsie and now live on a 125 acre farm in Madison Co in the town of Brookfield (central NY area south of Utica/southeast of Syracuse). My brother-in-law told me, anytime I want, to come on up and go hunting on their farm. Cool beans, you know?!?! Sweet... A 125 acre farm all to myself... [8D]:D

BUT... I talked NY State DEC to find out the rules/regs/policy with a farm/private land and outof state license requirements. HOLY **** is NY State expensive!!! They told me it's $110 for a out of state license. Bowhunting is another $110. Muzzleloader is yet another $110. And here is where I just said forget it: If I want to go bowhunting in NY State (even though I have hunting licenses,bow licenses and firearms certifications and stuff in Virginia), NY State WILL NOT recognize my bow hunting license and I would be required to take a NY State bowhunter education course or IBEP course, just to go bowhunting on my brother-in-law's farm.

Besides NY State DEC has really done some foolish things with the deer management. The deer herds have seriously dwindled either by coyotes or DEC mismanagment of deer tags. My sister (big horse lover and rider/trainer/horse show winner) worries about her prized horses getting attacked by coyotes. She heard a horrible rumor that NY State released coyotes to help manage the deer herd, instead of allowing hunters to do it. Now the deer herd is getting wiped out by packs and packs of coyotes all over the place.

To all NY State hunters: I'm sorry guys... I'm an old New Yorker myself, but I just can't justify going back "home" to hunt. It's not worth it.... [&o]:([>:] Unless NY State DEC drastically changes things around, there will not be a lot of hunters NOT wanting to go hunting in NY and/or not want to help the next generation of hunters continue with the tradition of hunting!

...just my .02 cents.

Butch A.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

Alright, I have tried to hold my tongue, but I cant anymore. I have dealt with Jim Losie now for about ten years. I have bought many a rifle and shotgun from him. After all those years, I am left with this impression.
The guy, though a gunshop owner, is NO outdoorsman.
Why do you ask?
For one, after talking to many surrounding shops after a fallout I had with him they all told me the same thing...he is overpriced, arrogant, and knows very little about the outdoors, though he does know his guns.
This said, he was one of the last people that the Daily Star should have spoken with about an environmental issues, though alot of hunters do pass through his shop.

You are one lucky guy, let me tell you that. Though, I have one argument to present.
I dont feel that any area within 15 miles of Oneonta (Yes, Morris falls within this boundary) can be used as a "small snapshot" for the rest of the state. I have been a resident of Delaware Country now for 21 years, and have been hunting for 11 of those years, with bow, muzzleloader, rifle. You name it, I have hunted it (As long as there is a season;)). Oneonta, and the surrounding townships (Morris, Davenport, Milford) all sport higher than average deer populations, as well as a higher buck to doe ratio.
There are a few reasons
A) There are many "unhuntable areas" (ie Hartwick College, Suco, and all the land that falls within the city) that serve as a sanctuary for deer. No hunting, no predators, and alot of food lend themselves to higher deer populations. I was on Hartwick Campus this fall, and had a eight point run in front of me, through a crowd of people changing classes, all the while chasing a hot doe. Everyone thought it was a hoot, myself included. A week later, I approached to within three feet of a ten point, maybe 100"+, before he spooked and ran. Again, he was on a hot doe. Several weeks later, a buck was almost hit by a car, walking next to the administration building at campus.
B) Many people dont think to hunt the areas near the city of Oneonta, mostly because they dont think there will be any deer there. Boy o boy, are they mistaken. It is almost like Long Island, and in recent years the deer population has become "unhealthy" due to its large size. Large bucks wander in and out of the city limits, and during the rut their ranges expand into the surrounding townships, hence the reason that you cannot use this area for a example for the rest of the state.

Believe me, I am real envious of Rick James, and I dont doubt that the foodplots have served to increase the deer herd further, and many bulked up a few of the racks I have been seeing:D. Still, I feel that reasons Morris has such a great deer herd is genetics hailing from the city limits, as well as roaming bucks who leave the city to chase does, especially in the later season.

The deer population is down, make no mistake about that. Even though I think that, I still saw 6+ nice bucks this year (No shooting chances[&:]) and about 25-30 does. Though everyone seems to think the DEC is doing a pi$$ poor job, one has to ask the question that maybe we were all spoiled during the peak of a cycle when the population is higher than average?

Just my humble opinion folks...:)

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

I don't knowalot about deer management, but I also don't understand the DEC's reasons for lack in population either. The lack of farming, and prime deer habitat has decreased? But yet in the 80's NY's deer population peaked! I certainly agree it needed to be decreased some so deer didn't devour the habitat, but not bythis much. Sure some farms have shut down, but I still see plenty in operation. Timber prices are higher now than ever. Speak to loggers, and its difficult for them to find large tracts of woodlands to cut, that haven't been cut alreadly in recent yrs. I see loggers in areas that I never guessed would log off, and alot of it. Logging means more new growth, and cover for the whitetail. Plus what else have many been doing on the past 5 yrs. Growing our own food plots, and placing mineral licks out. Sure beats those bales of hay people used to place out in the days of old! And our winters, come on. Sure we've had a couple with plenty of snow. But I haven't seen us digging out of 3-4ft storms we used to get in the 80's and earlier. Being stranded in our homes for 2-3days. As a matter of fact, with the exception of a couple of bad ice storms. We haven't had a snow stranding type storm since the 1993 blizzard. Its been a long time since we've had a real hard winter with depths of 4 ft plus most winter long. I also haven't seen the wks upon wks of 10-20 below temps. We seem to only get short spells of minus temps now. Our winters are nothing like I recall used to be. I say the DEC is making excuses for a overly decreased deer population mistake. A 49% harvest decrease since 2002 says it all!!!

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

I beg to differ. We have had 2 fairly hard winters (before this year). For the most part a constant snow cover from Dec/Jan- March. There doesn't need to be 4 ft. of snow to be a "hard" winter.2 ft is plenty tough on deer and we have had that the past 2 winters (at least at my camp). yes the winters do vary across the state, but in general they have been tough on deer. now this year there will ne no one (DEC included) that can say the winter had a detrimental effect on the deer.

RE: NY Hunters and Atlasman
 

I kind of like the challenge of working even harder for a mature buck[8D][:-]