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What triggers the rut?

Old 10-20-2002, 08:37 PM
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Default What triggers the rut?

I've heard a lot of theories...Weather, Moon phases, Amount of daylight...anybody have the facts? Opinions, observations and beliefs are welcome too.
T.R.?? I personally don't mind sifting through shameless plugs if there are facts involved. Bring it if ya got it.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Old 10-20-2002, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

T R can supply you with the scientific documentation. BUT, After his last post on the rut I emailed to ask this very question. It is governed by the same force that causes leaves to green, flowers to bloom and fall to come. It is the number of hours of daylight.

Not the moon. Not the temp. Just the same thing that triggers winter, spring, summer, fall.
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Old 10-20-2002, 10:01 PM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

Sooner Hunter is correct.



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Old 10-21-2002, 03:14 AM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

the technical term is photoperiod

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Old 10-21-2002, 07:10 AM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

I think the reason many people think it is caused by weather is because when it turns cold and the deer activity picks up people &quot;see&quot; deer behiving like they are in rut. What they don't relize is that the deer were doing to same thing before the weather turned cold, they just didn't see it as much.
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Old 10-21-2002, 07:30 AM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

How many hours of daylight triggers the rut?????

Thanks and good Hunting!!!
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Old 10-21-2002, 09:37 AM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

Here's the deal---sex hormones can be conditioned by the amount of &quot;photoperiod&quot;. For seasonal breeders (and each species is different), the relationship of certain hormones to one another will determine when females come into estrus.

Bucks are conditioned similarly, but produce androgens, primarily testosterone and related by-products. With decreasing photoperiod, the amounts of testosterone rise in bucks and estrogen concentrations rise in does.

But here lies the controversy/mystery...photoperiod is simply the amount of &quot;light&quot; in a 24 hour period. The moon does cast appreciable light---go out tonight and tell me, if the skies are clear, that there is not an appreciable amount of light outside. This was the initial observation that led to many of the moon phase theories. And one of the current theories resides with the full moon acting as a trigger for the final shift between prolactin/dopamine/estrodiol hormones for the onset of estrus.

The decrease in light heightens the animals sensitivities, then the intensity of the full moon around Nov. 01 (in the Northern states) triggers a surge of estrogen which shifts the hormonal relationship, resulting in what we hunters call the &quot;rut&quot;.

And to my knowledge, there are various scientific studies that indicate the moon theory is bogus. However, for every one that disproves the moon, there are 2 that counter with favorable evidence.

But the real answer to your question is simply...when the does are ready to breed.

Bucks are ready as soon as you see the first scrape or the first rubs on aromatic trees. Many older bucks will use one primary scrape, then incorporate scrape &quot;posts&quot; on aromatic tree species such as cedar or hemlock. Find these and you not only have a rubline, but also a scrape line---this is a big indication that the rut is close, you're probably hunting a mature buck and &quot;HUNT HERE&quot; is a given.

There is also a less known fact about mammals and reproductive function, which is based on high protein diet. Women with a high protein diet will experience menarche much sooner than those on poor diets, and seasonal breeding mammals (such as sheep) will begin ovulating (estrus) much earlier in the season than those on poorer diets.

So in essence maybe the rut really coincides with what the animal eats year round, how early the oaks drop their acorns and when the farmers cut their cornfield.

For now though, I'll personally just stick to what I see in the woods, because that's really the only true and tried answer you can rely upon. The rut will move from year to year, and if you're off by a week that could mean the difference between seeing a yearling 4-pt and a 4.5 year-old 10 pt.

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Old 10-21-2002, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

If the photoperiod triggers the rut, then what triggers the secondary rut about 28 days after the main rut? Of course this isn't near as strong as the main rut. It still occurs for does not in estrous forst time around.

Although, I am not an total advocate for either factors of predicting the rut (photoperiod or moon phase), the post rut does happen right around the same moon phase of the main rut.

I would have to agree with Rut and Strut in his statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> For now though, I'll personally just stick to what I see in the woods, because that's really the only true and tried answer you can rely upon.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
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Old 10-21-2002, 10:32 AM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

Thanks for all the info. The diet thing makes sense as I hunt 3 places and right now 2 (hardwoods) are starting to turn on and 1 ( scrub and swamp)is just starting to get rubs; easily two weeks behind the first 2. They're only 20-25 miles apart. I'd heard about the photoperiod, but the diet must have influence as well. Hey SOONER, can you post or email me any reply from T.R?? Thanks again...
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Old 10-21-2002, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: What triggers the rut?

Below is the whole chapter on what causes peak breeding. Get comfortable, it's going to take about a half hour to get through.

Boy, is this a misunderstood topic. Strut&Rut has some good information. However, I have not seen any scientific evidence to prove the moon/peak breeding theory, in fact when I have asked for it I didn't get it. Also, as of the last time I talked to Dr. Larry Marchinton, non had ever been presented to the scientific community. Dr. Karl Miller told me that his studies of 2,500 does (some between 1980 and 1987, [before the theories ever came out]) in 11 states from VT to MN and GA to MS, show there was NO correlation between peak breeding and ANY moon phase. In plain terms, the theory doesn't hold up.

Because I got my hands on the (1,600) doe conception date study (over 8 years) in Minnesota, I can tell you unequivocally that the theories do not hold up in Minnesota. Even one of the top biologists who writes about this subject, and who came up with at least one of the theories, admitted to me that it probably didn't work, because photoperiod was the &quot;trigger&quot; while local weather conditions and survival rates are the determining factors.

Dr. Valerius Geist points out that there is not enough moon at night that it could affect the pineal gland, especially when you consider there are rarely 7 days of full moon light in October/Novemeber in much of North America. His exact response to the theroy was, &quot;Oh B... S...&quot;

As far as the second rut. Marchintons' studies show that un-bred does recycle in 21-30 days, not the 28 days previously thought. I'm finding the same thing with elk, second rut is approximately 21-28 days later (elk cycle at about 21 days). The MN studies show that it is mostly fawns that breed in December (most of us MN hunters thought it was yearlings).

Show me scientific proof, and I'll send it to Marchinton, Miller, Ozoga and Geist, and I'll see what they say. For now they say it doesn't work. And it certainly doesn't work in MN. And I can prove it.

If a doe is stressed from malnutrition, she may not come in to estrus when she normally should. Does that have no fawns are in the best physical shape, does with 1 fawn are next, does with 2 fawns are next and does with 3 fawns may be in tough shape. Older does with poor teeth, may also be in tough shape. Poor summer forage conditions alone may cause does to be in poor condition, and studies by Marchinton show that when mast (acorn) production is low, the bucks may begin scraping later than normal, and scrape less than normal. Which could lead to a later rut.

From the Deer Addict's Manual, Volume 4
Copyright 2002, by T.R. Michels, Trinity Mountain Publishing
Used by permission of T.R. Michels for Hunting.Net.

Does The Moon Influence The Rut?
The theory that moon position and light phase may influence deer activity has lead both hunters and researchers to believe that lunar factors may also influence the estrus cycle of the does. These hunters and researchers believe that by finding a correlation between estrus and lunar factors they may be able to predict when peak buck activity or &quot;the peak of the rut&quot; will occur. The term &quot;the peak of the rut&quot; can be confusing to hunters because writers and researchers use it to describe different time frames and activities during the rut. Many hunters and writers refer to &quot;the peak of the rut&quot; as the time when they see most of the daytime rut related activities of scraping and chasing, which generally occurs seven to ten days before the peak of the breeding activity. However, this is not &quot;the peak of the rut.&quot; The peak of the rut, by scientific definition, is when peak breeding occurs. For the purpose of this discussion &quot;the peak of the rut&quot; will be described as the time when peak breeding occurs.
One thing that must be made clear is that all the breeding activity does not occur during the peak of the rut. Larry Marchintonís studies in Georgia, and my own studies in Minnesota, show that the breeding season often lasts 90 days or more. While the peak of the rut may occur in November these studies show that from 10-20 percent of the does may be bred in October, 40-60 percent in November and another 20-30 percent in December; depending on the area, buck to doe ratio, the health of the deer and the age structure of the animals. In Marchintonís study the 1 1/2 year old does came into their first estrus in October and November. In most northern areas 1 1/2 year old does come into their first estrus in December. Generally speaking, the November rut will last three weeks, with the peak of the breeding occurring from one and a half to two weeks after the first doe comes into estrus in November.

The Rutting Moon
Several outdoor writers believe they have found a way to predict the peak of the rut by using moon phases. One writer believes that the rut will begin 5-7 days after the second Full Moon after the fall equinox, which occurs on September 21; he believes that the peak of the rut will occur during the New Moon. Two whitetail researchers, who also write, believe the rut will peak during the Full Moon and Last Quarter. Another writer believes that the peak of the rut will occur 5-7 days before the first New Moon following the second Full Moon after the fall equinox. What they are all saying is that peak breeding will occur somewhere between the Full Moon and the following New Moon. That would mean the peak of the rut would normally occur before the New Moon in November.
There are several reasons why the 5-7 days before the New Moon theory may not hold up. The main reason is because it is based in part on a study of Water Buffalo in India. While the theory may apply to Water Buffalo in India, researchers are quick to point out that Water Buffalo are not deer, but a form of cattle. Several researchers also point out that the tropical weather conditions in India are far different from the temperate conditions of North America.
There are two basic problems with these theories. One is that they are so new that they have not been thoroughly tested or proven yet. The other is that they each predict a slightly different time frame. One theory suggests that the peak of the rut will occur during the New Moon, one suggests that the peak will occur during the Full Moon and Last Quarter, and yet another suggests that the peak will occur 5-7 days before the New Moon. They canít all be right, yet it would be hard to say that any of them are wrong, because peak breeding in many areas usually lasts from 2-3 weeks. Chances are those 2-3 weeks would include portions of both the Full Moon and the New Moon, and everything in between.

Melatonin
The correlation between breeding activity and the moon involves lunar light, melatonin and reproductive hormones. Melatonin is believed to be a regulator of hormones, and as such it may have the ability to affect the growth and shedding of hair, and affect estrus cycles. It is believed that melatonin is produced during the dark. Because melatonin regulates the production of hormones a reduction in melatonin during the full moon triggers breeding activity. Supposedly, it takes a few days for the reduction in melatonin levels and the corresponding rise in reproductive hormone levels to occur. The researchers mentioned earlier believe that breeding activity should occur from 5-7 days after the full moon. However, the effects of low light conditions that affect the rutting period of white-tailed deer are thought to be in relation to the reduction of solar light, or daily photoperiod, during the fall, not the increase of lunar light.
To check the validity of this theory I spoke to several well respected deer researchers. Dr. Valerius Geist says he does not believe there is a correlation between melatonin, moon phase and estrus cycles. He doesn't believe there is enough light during the full moon to affect overall monthly melatonin production. He also notes that the prevalence of clouds during the fall would eliminate most of the lunar light during the full moon. Dr. Karl Miller does not believe there is a correlation between moon phase and whitetail estrus cycles either. He told me that in their tests with melatonin that the deer grew winter coats earlier than they normally would, but the average first estrus dates did not change. This suggests that melatonin is not the only thing that controls estrus dates.

Estrus Cycles
These theories may be based, in part, on the misconception that the estrus cycle of whitetails occurs every 28 days, which coincides with a 28 day lunar cycle. However, neither the moon nor a whitetail deer has a 28 day cycle. It actually takes the moon 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes and 2.8 seconds to orbit the earth once; and not all whitetails come into estrus every 28 days. Studies by Dr. Larry Marchinton in Georgia show that whitetail does come into estrus from 21 to 30 days, not every 28 days as previously thought. Therefore, even if the first estrus of a doe fell on a specific moon phase during one month the second estrus could be as much as a week before the same moon phase a month later.
I mention the first estrus because several studies on whitetail deer and other hoofed animals suggest that females experience a silent, or non-estrus, ovulation prior to having their first estrus ovulation. If this is true, and the moon phase does affect the ovulation cycle of deer, then the first &quot;estrus&quot; of the doe may not occur during the same moon phase a month later, because the doe may not come into estrus exactly 28 days later.

Photoperiod
The amount of light that affects the rutting period of white-tailed deer is thought to be in relation to solar light, not lunar light. Researchers believe it is the decreasing number of hours of daylight during the fall (referred to as photoperiod) that trigger the rut in white-tailed deer. In northern regions above the 40th parallel whitetails generally breed when there are 9 1/2 to 10 hours of light per day. This photoperiodic change occurs once every year, roughly every 365 days, and so does the rut. But, the rut for deer herds in different areas may vary by days or weeks.

Fawn Survival
The time when whitetails breed in each area is dependent on the survival rate of the fawns in the spring. Spring fawn survival depends on weather conditions that are warm enough so fawns won't die from exposure, and on the availability of spring forage so that does have enough to eat to produce milk for the fawns. Through trial and error, and selective survival over several generations, deer in each area have adapted their breeding schedule so that they breed approximately 200 days before the arrival of spring in their area. To ensure that at least some of the fawns survive each year not all of the does breed, or produce fawns, at the same time. An extended fawning season ensures that some fawns will live even when there is a late spring. Because of this, the length of the breeding season in most deer herds lasts six or more weeks, which makes it hard to predict when the breeding period is, especially if it is in conjunction with the phases of the moon.

Peak Breeding
The rut in most northern areas above the 40th parallel occurs from 180 to 210 days before spring warm-up and the emergence of new growth in that area. Spring conditions occur at different times in different areas and so does the rut. Because spring and summer last longer below the 40th parallel southern deer are able to breed over a wider range of dates than northern deer. Peak breeding on Blackbeard Island off the Georgia coast occurs from mid-September to mid- October, while peak breeding for southern mainland Georgia occurs from mid-October to mid-November. Peak breeding dates in different areas of Louisiana and Texas range from as early as October 15 to as late December 15. Peak breeding in much of the north occurs in mid-November.

If you want to know when to expect bucks to be acting stupid during the day, and you want to know when peak breeding activity occurs in your area, call the local game managers and ask them. Then hunt the two weeks before the breeding activity, when individual bucks are most predictable as they make their rubs and scrapes; the two to three weeks of the breeding period, when the bucks throw caution to the wind in their efforts to find estrus does; or the week after peak breeding, when the bucks are trying to find any does that remain unbred.

What You Are Not Being Told
Although I have read several articles on lunar rut theories, what the average hunter is not being told is that does go through what deer biologists call a ďsilent ovulationĒ 12 to 23 days before they experience an estrus ovulation. During the silent ovulation the does ovulate but there are not enough reproductive hormones present for the doe to conceive and become pregnant. What this means is that, if the moon does influence breeding behavior, it is the moon phase the month before the doe comes into estrus that starts the process, and there is the crux of the problem.
Letís suppose that the full moon does trigger a reduction in melatonin level, which in turn triggers the first ovulation cycle of the doe (5 to 7 days after the full moon). In much of North America whitetail does are bred in November. That would mean that it was the full moon in October that triggered the ovulation cycle. Remember, does come into an first &quot;estrus ovulation&quot; from 12 to 23 days after their &quot;silent ovulation.&quot; And we have to add 5 to 7 days for the &quot;melatonin effect&quot; to the 12 to 23 days between the silent ovulation and estrus ovulation.
What that means is, if a doe experienced a silent ovulation 5 to 7 days after the October full moon, and if she experienced an estrus ovulation 23 days after her silent ovulation, she could come into estrus during the November full moon. But what if she comes into an estrus ovulation 12 days after her silent ovulation? Then she would come into estrus nine days before the full moon. Now remember that the moon theories suggest the doe will come into estrus from 5 days before to nine days after the full moon. It just doesn't add up.

Priming Pheromones and Rut Synchronization
I've already mentioned that whitetail does experience a silent ovulation prior to having a normal estrus ovulation, which is when they can normally be expected to breed and conceive. And I mentioned that it appears there is no correlation between the phase of the moon and peak breeding. We do know that it is the shortening number of hours of light each day that triggers the rut. But, is there anything besides the sun that helps assure that bucks and does are ready to breed at the same time?
Miller, Marchinton and Knox presented a scientific paper in 1987, in which they suggested that the scents left behind at rubs may serve as priming pheromones, that help bring does into estrus when the does come in contact with the scents. When bucks rub a tree they transfer scents from their sudoriferous (forehead) glands to the tree when they rub it. The scent from these glands has been correlated with a bucks age and probable social status. In other words, does can tell how old a buck is, and probably whether or not it is a dominant buck or not by the scent it leaves behind at a rub. But, what matters is that when does smell the scents at a rub it may cause them to come into a silent estrus. Since rubbing usually peaks early in the rut (mid to late September in many areas), and because the does don't all come in contact with the scents at the rubs at the same time, many of them may come into a silent estrus in late September early/October, and come into a normal estrus from late October to late November.

Rut Related Activities
Even though we may not be able to predict when peak breeding occurs there may be a correlation between lunar factors and daytime deer activity. When normal deer activity, caused by the weather, the rut, or lunar factors, occurs during the day, you would expect that rut related activities such as rubbing, scraping and breeding would also occur during the day. Because Dr. Grant Woods has researched several other deer activities I asked him if this assumption was true. Woods says that when lunar forces cause increased daytime deer activity you can expect rut activity, including rubbing, scraping and breeding, to occur during the day. Incidentally, I found that the Moon Indicator is fairly accurate at predicting when peak scrape activity will occur.

Regional Rut Differences
Peak breeding behavior may occur as early as the first week of November in the north and as late as January in the south, and it may vary by as much as a month for different deer herds in the same state. It is this variability of the rut in different areas that causes the differing opinions on whether or not the moon influences deer activity during the rut. Let's assume the peak breeding in Minnesota occurs during mid-November, and the peak breeding in Kansas is the first week of December; which is when researchers say peak rut occurs in those areas. When the new moon occurs in mid-November the hunters in Minnesota report seeing a lot of breeding activity during the new moon. But, the hunters in Kansas report seeing very little breeding activity during the new moon, because peak breeding in Kansas occurred two weeks later, during the full moon.

Monthly Variations
In order for researchers to feel confident of their findings they need data on hundreds of deer over several years. While the results of these long term studies may show significant differences in deer activity, they often do not reflect the daily or monthly activity that hunters see, because most hunters do not sight enough deer in a season to notice differences in movement patterns. My records indicate that MONTHLY daytime deer movement peaks during October and December, but may not peak in November, when either the rut or the hunting season are in progress.
While some researchers and writers claim that peak breeding activity will occur during certain moon phases these phases don't occur at the same time each year. In 1994 the full moon occurred on November 19. My records indicate that peak breeding behavior in my area occurred November 17. In 1996 the new moon occurred on November 11 and the full moon occurred on November 25. My records indicate that peak breeding behavior occurred on November 15. In 1997 the new moon occurred on October 31 and November 30, with a full moon on November 14. My records indicate that peak breeding behavior occurred on November 16, not the end of October or the end of November. This shows that peak breeding occurs in mid-November no matter what the moon phase is, at least in my area. Because of my own studies, and the studies of several other researchers, I do expect to see increased DAYTIME deer activity during the rut from approximately a week before to a week after the peak of the rut, no matter what the moon phase is.

Rut Indicators
Several different writers, and a pair of whitetail researchers, have promoted the idea that peak breeding is influenced by the phase of the moon. Because of the effects of moonlight on melatonin production, which affects hormone production, the researchers claim that most does will come into estrus from 5-7 days after the second full moon after the fall equinox on September 23. In other words, the does will come into estrus 5-7 days after the full moon in November. One outdoor writer says essentially the same thing. To make things confusing, another outdoor writer says that most does will come into estrus 5-7 days before the new moon following the second full moon after the fall equinox. In other words, the does will come into estrus 5-7 days before the new moon in November.
Basically, these researchers and writers are saying the same thing; the peak of rut should occur about halfway between the full moon and the following new moon in November; provided the melatonin theory is correct, and their predictions are right. But, there is one problem with the melatonin theory, and therefore possibly with their predictions. When a new scientific discovery is made by a researcher, it is normally presented to the scientific community in the form of a research paper, with lots of data to back it up. However, as far as I know, no research paper has been presented to the scientific community on these theories.
Many hunters rely on these predictions to hunt whitetail, believing that they will see a lot of breeding and stupid buck activity during the times predicted. But, since most hunters will never know how many does are bred on any one day, or in any one week in their area, they will never be able to tell when peak breeding actually occurs.
There is good evidence to show that these predictions are not right. I recently received the conception dates for 1,600 does in Minnesota between 1980 and 1987. Peak breeding for all years combined occurred on November 11, and peak yearly breeding did not very by more than a few days from year to year. This shows that most breeding in Minnesota generally occurs from the first to the fourth week of November, and that breeding usually peaks during the second week of November. Between 1980 and 1987 the full moon occured nost frequently during the first and fourth weeks of Novemeber, showing no correlation between peak breeding (during the second week of November) and any moon phase.
In talking to several deer researchers in the northern United States, I found that they believe peak breeding almost always occurs at the same time in their areas each year. If you really want to know when peak breeding occurs in your area I'll consult my Rut Dates Chart, which gives the breeding dates for most states. Or ask your local deer biologist.

Rubbing, Scraping and The Moon
Now, I'm going to stretch things a little. During my research I have found that the rubbing and scraping of white-tailed bucks was correlated with several different lunar factors, one of them being the full moon phase. If peak rubbing is correlated with the full moon; and if does come into a silent estrus a few days later (say 5-7 days) as a result of coming into contact with priming pheromones at rubs; then there might be a correlation with the silent estrus of a doe and the moon. But, that does not mean that there will be a correlation with peak breeding and the moon, because the does don't all come into a normal estrus 28 days later. They may come into a normal first estrus from 12-23 days later. This could result in most of the breeding occurring from mid-October to late November in many areas, which it does.

[end]

From the Whitetail Addict's Manual
Copyright 2002, by T.R. Michels, Trinity Mountain Publishing
Used by permission of T.R. Michels for Hunting.Net.

The truth of the matter is that whitetails in different areas may breed at different times, because the breeding dates for deer in each area are dependent on fawn survival; and fawn survival depends on warm weather and green forage. Since the whitetail gestation period is 180-210 days (mean length 197-202), deer in most areas breed approximately 6 2/3 months before warm weather and spring forage appears, which generally occurs in late May. In northern areas May is when temperatures regularly stay above freezing, which allows plants to begin growing, and does to produce enough milk for the fawns.
The two researchers mentioned above do state that although the moon may have some effect on the rut, when the appropriate moon phase occurs outside of the normal breeding period, the deer will breed at the normal time, but there may be a longer breeding period with a less noticeable peak. I have checked with local deer researchers in Minnesota and they tell me that peak breeding invariably occurs in mid-November, not the third week of November, or the last week of November. Two friends of mine who raise deer tell me their does are bred every year from November 1-20. In 2001 Karl Miller presented a researcher paper suggesting that there was no correlation between moon phases and peak breeding of does in Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, South Carolina or Texas.

[end]

Question: If the phase of the moon is supposed to trigger peak breeding, why do deer in different states exhibit peak breeding on different dates within the same year? Because the theories don't hold up.

Show me otherwise, and I'll print it.

Strut&Rut,
If you have scientific studies on this e-mail or send them to me. I just want to know if there is other evidence supporting the theories.

PS
As a result of these questions I was curious as to how many times the Full Moon would occur during the third week of November over a 30 year period. (The peak of the rut regularly occurs during the second week of November [in northern states], and the moon phase/peak breeding advocates say peak breeding will occur 5-7 days before the full moon. So, in order to be right, on a regular basis, the November full moon should occur during the third week of November.

You know what? Between 1980 and 2009, the full moon occurred or is going to occur during the third week of November 9 times (out of 30 times). It's hard to be wrong when you're going to be right 30 percent of the time no matter what happens. Sounds like a stacked deck to me!!!

That's why so many people believe they work. But, what about the other 21 times???

From 1980-2009 the 2nd full moon after the fall equinox (on Sept. 21-22) occurred from as early as October 23 to as late as November 22, and it occurred 9 more times in the third and fourth weeks of October.

You guys in the northern states don't really think peak breeding is going to occur during the fourth week of October, or the first week of November, on a regular basis do you?

Peak rut is not DEPENDENT on the phase of the moon!!! Just trying to tell it like it is.

Edited by - trmichels on 10/22/2002 10:38:19
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