QDM Question
 

I have a question for those who pratice QDM (quality deer management)

This is not meant to start a flame war however I understand the possibility is there, so lets try to keep our replies on subject.

Do you do this for the quality of the herd or the size of the antlers on the bucks? I ask this because I always thought QDM was for the herd and not one gender.

If you want to pratice quality Antler Management (QAM I'll call it) that's fine I have no problem with it, but call it for what it is.I am seeing more and more posts about passing on smallerbucks and this being construed as QDM.

Am I wrong, but if your deer herd is healthy (doe to buck ratio and overall numbers)with all 2 1/2 year old, small rackedbucks and maybe a P&Y buck or two tossed in, there is no need for QDM right?

I am all in favor of QDM as it effects the herd, and my understanding of that is to keep thebuck to doe ratios at the proper level and overall numbers as well.

So is QDM about the herd or the rack?

RE: QDM Question
 

It's about the racks plain and simple..... Sure, a couple of pin heads will get on here and type 8 paragraphs trying to explain their position..... But in the end it's all about killing bigger deer.... Mind you, they will say "mature deer", but we all know that means bigger deer.....

RE: QDM Question
 

That's my question, I am reading where people are passing on smaller bucks andit's donein the name of QDM. But I can't see where passing on a smaller buck will help the herd unless there aren't enough bucks.If that's the case, theyshould not be shooting ANY bucks and certainly not the bigger more mature ones that have territory and a herd of does that he is mating with.

Unless I'm missing something...and thus my post.

RE: QDM Question
 

I agree with you both, I mean... We practice QDM and take quiet a few does a year, yet we consider it more than less to hold off on the small bucks.

Our DNR has even refer to QDM as deer's antler size as well. I hunt in a "QDM" zone, 'Quality deer Management' correct? Well, the laws prohibits you shooting deer with an antler with less than 3 points on it. So it would be "QAM"

I like that... :D

RE: QDM Question
 

What about a "mature" buck with a small rack?

Can you take him and practice QDM at the same time?

Jeff

RE: QDM Question
 

There definetely is a difference in the interpretation of the term QDM depending on who you talk to and I think that makes it hard to get these measures passed in certain areas, such as the UP of Michigan where I'm located. QDM originally was for the herd, but has come to symbolize antler size, and the general sentiment among non-QDM supporters is that all QDM people are trophy hunters. I, like most, am after big bucks, but at the same time, I understand the need for doe harvest. On the recent QDM vote (2004) the debate became trophy hunters vs. meat hunters and the proposal ultimately failed because of it. We desperately need some doe harvest and buck laws changed, perhaps one buck per season, and this I think would qulaify as QDM since it would be helping the herd by getting the ratios closer together, but also a secondary effect would be the QAM portion. I think that everyone can benefit from QDM because the meat hunters can take a doe to eat, but the buck hunters have an increased chance of taking a good buck. Just my $0.02

RE: QDM Question
 

We practice QDM and I feel it's about both the herd and antler size. Our first goal was to get a better buck to doe ratio so we could see a more definitive rut and achieve a balanced herd. Our current goal is to allow the bucks to reach maturity unless an "inferior" younger buck presents itself. It's not an easy thing to pull the trigger on a spindly piebald and use your only buck tag for the year. If we can get rid of the piebalds, our herd seems to have good genes. However, we would all like the opportunity to take a Pope and Young buck from time to time.

RE: QDM Question
 

I know I should be asking this in the QDM forum, but what do you guys feel is the idealdoe/buck ratio?
Where I hunt I seeabout 10 does for every buck.

I figure the point of keeping the doe #sin check is so that only the dominant bucks get to mate and not every spike horn out there, am I right or is there another reason?

RE: QDM Question
 

I have a feeling this thread will take off...
But my 2 cents are this

QDM principles are to pass on young deer, shoot mature does and bucks. It just so happens that mature bucks almost always equal big bucks. If you get into situations where you are shooting cull bucks, and worried about genes,then it's leaning towards QAM. QDM is also about having an age structure that spans deer of many age classes. If all your top end bucks are only 2 1/2 that is not a healthy age structure. Passing on a small bucks=young bucks=allows the age structure to be sorted out with older deer. Shoot enough deer for the land to hold, pass on younger bucks, I don't think its that much to ask, or too difficult a concept to grasp.

RE: QDM Question
 

Wouldn't "IDEAL" be 1/1?

Jeff

RE: QDM Question
 

The thing is when you have a balanced deer herd you will have all age class animals!Thus big bucks and small bucks.The antler size depends on more thanage.Nutrition,& Genetics play a hugh role too.What I am trying
to say I guess is you can have a balanced deer herd and still not have boone & crocket deer running around on your farm!

RE: QDM Question
 

That has always been my take on QDM having all age groups and a proper doe to buck ratio. Where I havequestions is when you have an area that is well balanced with bucks to doeswhat is wrong with killing any buck you want?

There is nothing wrong with hunting for P&Y bucks but let's be clear here "Let them go so they can grow" IMHO has nothing to do with QDM and should not be associated with each other. Ones sole purpose is to grow P&Y bucks and the other is to have a healthy herd.

RE: QDM Question
 

Pope and Young bucks were once small bucks that someone must have "let go so they can grow"

RE: QDM Question
 

In Kansas you get one buck tag all season and you pick the weapon you are going to use when you get your tag. If I don't get a buck with my bow than I can't fill my tag with another weapon. The state does our QDM for us, if a guy wants to shoot a button or spike more power to him it will save the big ones for me.

RE: QDM Question
 

Piebald genes have nothing to do with the antlers. They may or may not be inferior. When we concern ourselves with the piebald gene it's about not wanting to have an anomoly herd running around with varying degrees of white spots on them.
All age classes of bucks and does should be in a balanced herd.

RE: QDM Question
 

I just wanna ask somethin.If quality deer management worked well enough to produce moreP&Y bucks then wouldnt it be more common for a hunter to take one, wouldntit just be anothercommon sized buck? And would the standard for atrophybuck increase?

RE: QDM Question
 

Deer management is key, and just because you have deer managment doesn't mean P&Y bucks... It means a healthy deer herd. In the area I hunt we see about 4 does to every buck. This is very good I think, although maybe even 3 does to a buck would be good.

RE: QDM Question
 

I understand that, but what does it have to do with QDM?

RE: QDM Question
 

RE: QDM Question
 

Another thing about letting bucks get older is so that they can "come into thier own" and sort out a pecking order and breeding order amongst themselves. At 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 these things are haphazard, as there is not age structure. You have to let them go so they can get older. Does that make you feel better. Forget the whole letting them go to make P&Y, let them go to get older(which just by nature will make them bigger)

If you have a great age class structured herd with bucks able to get 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 years old, then taking a couple younger bucks here and there ain't going to do harm, its when there is a TINY% of older class bucks, and 80% of the bucks taken are 1 1/2 years old then you have a problem.

RE: QDM Question
 

So if the herd does not have enough older bucks, it's not a healthy herd? Is there a study that proves this. I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying I have never heard ofthat before. I believe there are plenty of older bucks in a healthy herd, maybe not as many as some hunters would like, but a healthy herd is a healthy herd none the less.

If only the older bucks "come into their own" and form a pecking order etc....and the herd is not healthy without them....why are you killing them? According to that way of thinking you would think that the older bucks would be "off limits" after all they are the only ones who know how to breed. You can't do that just like you can't just only kill the younger ones either.

I don't believe I read anywhere (becides pro QDM articles) where it was stated that a large number of older bucks was needed to keep the herd healthy.I know I have NEVER heard a pro QDM person say to kill a 1 1/2 year old buck,unless of course they didn't think it would grow to be a P&Y, after all their motto is "Let them go so they can grow"

I think if the herd is healthy....it's healthy. It could be healthy with 80% 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old bucks or just as healthy with a higher % of older bucks, as long as the doe ratio is ok and the deer are in good contition.

It's the hunters who want bigger bucks so badly they are willing to hide behind QDM to tip the odds in their favor if they happen to live in an area of a lower percentage of older and yes bigger antlered bucks.

Like I said before if that's what you want that's fine but leave QDM out of it and call it what it is QAM

RE: QDM Question
 

That's ok but what you are praticing is QAM and not necessarily QDM. Keeping the herd healthy does not always equate to bigger bucks. This is my whole point. I do not believe you MUST have a large number of older bigger bucks to have a healthy herd. Would I and most of us like all them P&Ybucks running around? Hell yes, but not to the point where I amwilling to tip the odds. Others can do it that's cool but again don't call it QDM.

This is not about if I agree or disagree with trying to grow bigger bucks, that's a discussion for another time. I am asking why is it being done in the name of QDM?

RE: QDM Question
 

Great question!

There are alot of reasons why bucks don't grow to be old huge P&Y monsters. The herds haven't suffered up till now without them...why should more be "produced" in the name of QDM?

I don't want to take that any further because it starts to get into QDM vs QAM and that's not where I want to go.

RE: QDM Question
 

The absolute #1 reason bucks don't grow to be old huge PY monsters is because they are shot when they still have spots or racks no longer than the longest hair in the crack of my arse! And so with your overwhelming depth of knowledge in the area of whitetail biology you have come to the conclusion that herds haven't "suffered" until now??? Could you back that up with some facts please? Sure...deer have survived and populations have thrived but in most locations across the country those populations are weak, out-of-balance, over-populated, and at risk. To understand QDM one must understand it as a whole and I'm not going to sit here and type out the entire QDM philosophy...go to their website and educate yourself and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

http://www.qdma.com/

RE: QDM Question
 

Here's my take on this debate:

It's very true that QDM is more about managing and maintaining a healthy herd, and most hunters view that as having mature deer, and harvesting them when they reach their full potential while maintaining a steady buck:doe ratio. I think that the bigger bucks are just an added benefit of practicing QDM. By passing up the younger 2 1/2 and sometimes 3 1/2 year old bucks, you are giving yourself a shot at a larger 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 year old mature buck--which would have a larger rack in nearly every case. Does this necessarily mean you are managing "antlers" instead of "deer"? Sure, I can see where you can make your case; but I can also see where a hunter that truly practices QDM can attribute a large buck to their willingness to not harvest young deer in general--beit buck or doe.

Again, "QAM" is--in my opinion--just part of the routine for those hunters that will allow an animal to reach its full potential by practicing QDM...but, that is just my opinion on the this

RE: QDM Question
 

I disagree with that. There are so manny factors you can't possibly equate it to one thing

I agree and I believe QDM works, I never said it didn't. What I was trying to say was I don't think you need to "boost" the amount of trophy bucks to get the herds backhealthy. What I meant about not suffering till now was the herds that ARE healthy aren't suffering because they don't have 90% P&Y bucks running around!

Well I went there and this quote below is straight from "the horses mouth"

QDM web site:
Funny, it didn't say it was necessary for a healthy herd. A prime example of QAM hiding behind QDM

Sorry about your a$$ hair problem, I hear there are doctors for that.

RE: QDM Question
 

I don't think anyone here will say that they don't like the thought of P&Y bucks on their property, I sure do. And I also don't think you will get an argument from anyone here when it comes to helping keep the herds healthy.I am also aware that in the process of maintaining a healthy herdmore P&Y bucks willnaturallycome from that and that's ok. Where I question is, why is it in a healthy herd people are STILL saying "Let it go so it can grow" and justifying it by saying they are practicing QDM?

RE: QDM Question
 

http://www.whitetailstewards.com/articlesonsite/deerpopulationmanage/deermanagementstrategies.htm


I found this article comparing and contrasting QDM, TroDM and TraDM,

RE: QDM Question
 

I think you hit the nail on the head right there BigJ!!!

Good article Shed!

RE: QDM Question
 

Shed33,

I appreciate the link and in theoryI agree.Like I said I have no problem with QDM. It'sthe QAM hiding behind the QMD moniker that is what I'm talking about.

I think the article is slightly skewed to the authors definition of QDM. By saying that the traditional method of deer management is:

This is not true. I believe most (if not all) states have far more does killed than bucks. But he would like to have everyone believe that all the bucks in the forest are getting killed and the does aren't. You see this way he doesn't have to answer questions like "If the doe to buck ratio is fine, and the herd is healthy, does it matter what the ages of the bucks are?"

To further look into this you only need to see who wrote the article

RE: QDM Question
 

QAM is a product of QDM.

QDM = bigger , healthier deer, better buck/ doe ratios, better carrying capacity of the land,morecompetition between bucks, better genitics, bigger antlers, better hunting and more fun = GOOD

RE: QDM Question
 

How can you disagree that age is not the #1 factor for getting large bucks? I don't care what kind of feed, and genetics you have, a buckWILL grow larger the older he gets until he passes his prime.

RE: QDM Question
 

I like the idea of seeing, and hopefully killing better bucks. I let some bucks walk, usually spikes, forks, and small basket racks. This year, I didn't, due to a very limited time in the field. I have been passing small deer for the past 3 years and yes, we are seeing increases in the size of the deer on our property. But that being said, we are also getting more deer that are nocturnal, so we are .....more or less...getting "trophy" deer that are too smart to kill. Am I the only one that has noticed this happening...more big buck sign.....but no increase in the amount of trophy deer taken?

I may have to call in a pro to help me out with my big bucks lol....I can't kill them [&:]

RE: QDM Question
 

I disagree because, like I said there are so many other factors involved as to why a buck (or any other deer) doesn't get older.Yes many are killed by hunters, but don'tmore deer die every year from otherthings? there is starvation, road kills, predator kills, disease etc... Add all that up, then with the ones that do survive, not all have the genetic structure and even if they do they may not have the food togrow P&Y racks.

One only needs to look at this forum at all of the mature deer that have been killed and see that only a handfull of them are P&Y caliber bucks...why is that? They are mature deer that are being taken aren't they?

So to say the absolute #1 reason why a buck doesn't grow to be a P&Y buck is because of being killed at a younger age to me is not correct.

This is just another ploy to hide QAM behind QDM

RE: QDM Question
 

While it would be nice for every deer herd in the country to have a diverse age structure for both it's bucks and does, I don't think that it is necessary in order to have a healthy herd. This isthekey element of how QAM people can do their work in the name of QDM. They will keep telling you it HAS to be that way or your herd will suffer.

The funny thing is MOST of the people who let these smaller bucks walk right by them and say "I did it because I pratice QDM" most likely have NO IDEA what the state of the herd in their area is! For all they know they could be passing on a deer that very well could have been killed and no harm would have come to the herd because of it.

If you let it walk because you want to shoot a bigger deer that's fine, I have no problem with that. I did that this year because of the contest. I ended up killing a small 8-point with a funky rack because I thought (and after killing it was right to think that way) it would have given him problems. If not I would have passed on him as well.

Just don't do it and say it was because of QDM. Now before those who are indeed performing QDM chime in I did say MOST. There are those who indeed do know the state of health their herd is in and are doing something about it andI applaud you. However once the ratios are balanced and the herd is healthy,and you still only kill older bucks or "inferior/cull" bucks because of their racks, then you have crossed over to QAM

RE: QDM Question
 

When the herd is balanced, why wouldn't you hold out for a mature buck when we have but one buck tag per year? QDM stewards would then ensure they strive to harvest the proper amount of mature doe(s) if needed to offset their buck. What's with the conspiracy theories between QDM and QAM? You seem angry.

RE: QDM Question
 

Guys what do we all consider a mature buck?

3.5?
4.5?

A buck doesn't reach his antler potential until he is 5-7 years old....

Most bucks in my area.. public lands, forest land, if they reach 5, they will honestly pack a 140 class gross 4x4 rack...5x5's 150 class gross rack.. some of course with poor genetics won't but if I can I would like to discuss this a bit.. IN all of my years hunting here..I rarely see a scrubby looking deer.. lots of nice 1.5 year old 4x4s and 2.5 year old 5x5s.....You all have me thinking about why my home state produces some nice bucks even though we have tons of public land, and plenty of rifle hunting pressure...

First off..the least of a deers worry here are humans. Wolves, Mountain lions and other predators get after them pretty hard and we have a very healthy population of all of the above predators..Cold winters too..at times..

1. Carrying capacity. Here we are fortunate to have THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of acres of logging areasand replanting. The replants..or plantations make for awesome food sources for the critters. These quality logging practices here actually..equate to food plots. Different from a conventional food plot in that they are not planted in Biologic or whatever, yet they create almost every type of browse you can imagine..along with grasses, forbs etc...

2. Deer here have big country to hide in..theyget a chancelive to an old age, even with all thehunters and predators.

3. Between road kills, ironically mostly does get road killed..I asked a local state highway guy once and he said hecleans up20 doe to every buck he finds roadkilled and he said most of the buck roadkills are baby bucks or younger bucks..now and then they will find a hammer buck dead and its usually during the rut...this road kill coupled with predation seems to in my eyes...keep ourbuck to do ratio is pretty darned stable. The last local Biologist I talked to said it was about 3 or 4to 1...not bad for public lands..Place I hunt I see more bucks than does a lot of times..then again I am scouting out buck hangouts..if I hung around the doe core areas more I would see many more does..so this is probably more to to scouting than anything..

4. I believe the cold northern winters force the MOST FAVORABLE genes to be passed on to the next generations...I witnessbig body sized bucks and big does..that reach 3.5 and older..many 200+lbbucks and does in the 150s...live weight..Not bad for forest country habitat.. where I currently live and hunt now that I moved, I am seeing bigger body sizes..I believe it's because of the added in agriculture, more private lands...and big forest country land backing it all for cover..Many hunters here too look for at least a 2.5 or 3.5 year old buck and pass up the young bucks..its kind of second nature here because we all know there are good bucks around if we wait it out...many local rifle hunters adhere to this philosophy..as well..due to the local big buck contests...which are very popular..

All this to say.. I feel with the logging and habitat enhancement that goes along with the logging... the big country..plenty of room to roam and hide..carrying capacities that never seem to get over loaded and add in predation, hunting and road kills..tough winters, all seem to keep the numbers in check.. we have a pretty healthy herd... by coincidence I feel..... is this partiallyqdm..???? at work without the area even knowing it..??? Help me out here..

Troy

RE: QDM Question
 

I probably would hold out for a bigger more mature buck, but I don't HAVE to and I wouldn't do it in the name of QDM.

No conspiracy theories here, I'm just exercising peoples brains.

You know ragin.......your not the first person to say I seemed angry here,(not this thread but others) I'm not angry at all. Ithink I'm comming across wrong.I need to work on that.

RE: QDM Question
 

I didn't want to copy the whole post but I agree with you and I think you are right on.

I never claimed to have all of the answers, I was just noticing that some people were using the term QDM as a reason to grow monster P&Y bucks. Again, not that it's bad, it's just two different things.

RE: QDM Question
 

You're all right Big! I find it's very hard to express true emotion as well as interpret it from others in a format such as this or email. When you can't see someone's face...it's hard to tell sometimes.